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Jesus, a Real Human Being

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by CHRISTgospel, Jul 30, 2002.

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  1. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    John urges us to believe in a Jesus who is authentically a human being, not an angel who became man, nor an eternal Son of God who became a man. Throughout the New Testament we are exhorted to believe that Jesus is the Christ. The Church is to be founded on Peter’s confession of Jesus as the Messiah (Mat. 16:16). John wrote his entire gospel to persuade us to believe that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31). The early church in Acts “kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ” (Acts 5:42). Paul “proved that this Jesus is the Christ” (Acts 9:22, cp. Acts 17:3, 18:5, 18:28). It is the “Man Messiah” who is the one mediator between the One God and man (I Tim. 2:5). No wonder, then that the spirit of antichrist denies that Jesus is the Messiah. This is the arch-lie: “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?” (I John 2:22, 5:1).

    It is crucially important to understand that the Messiah promised by the Old Testament was to be a real descendant of David (II Sam. 7:14). God would be the Father of this descendant, according to the promise, but the Messiah would be “the fruit of David’s body” (Psalm 132:11). There is no hint here or elsewhere in the Old Testament that God had been the Father of the Messiah for all eternity, much less that the Messiah was to be the uncreated member of an eternal Trinity. Rather, he was to be a “prophet like Moses” raised up from an Israelite family (see Deut. 18:15-18, Acts 3:22, 7:37). The traditional Jesus of the creeds is alien to this Biblical picture of the Messiah.

    The real Jesus of history in whom Luke believed was the Son of God, not because He had been God from eternity but because of his miraculous conception. In Mary’s womb a real human person came into existence.
     
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  2. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    So, christgospel, is what you are stating is that Jesus was a prophet?


    GySgt James
     
  3. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Jesus = Messiah = annointed one = begotten Son of God = seed of David = son of man

    Deut 18:15-19
    15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

    17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

    18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
    KJV

    ******
    John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
    KJV

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    KJV

    Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (God annointed himself?)

    Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    KJV
     
  4. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    CONTINUTATION OF POST ONE

    This Jesus is a genuinely human person, though supernaturally conceived. He is the descendant of David. If he were not he could not prove his claim to be the Messiah. If, however, this person is actually God, putting on “impersonal human nature,” why would his descent from David matter? Could one not receive “impersonal human nature” from a mother of any nationality? The theory that the person of Jesus is not that of Mary’s Son begotten by the Father in Mary (Matt. 1:18, 20), but that of a preexistent person surely destroys both the genuineness of Jesus’ humanity and his descent from David.

    The Jesus of Trinitarian and Chalcedonian theology is officially not a human person — ”man” but not “a man.” Such theological jargon, as many realize, is in desperate need of revision. The most important question of all is whether the Chalcedonian Jesus, in whom millions profess belief, qualifies as the one who came “as a human being” (I John 4:2). The difference in John’s mind between the real human Jesus and the one who only appears to be a man is the difference between light and dark, Christ and antichrist. One may profess to believe in Jesus as Messiah but negate this confession by denying that he is a fully human person. This the ancient creeds, so long hallowed by tradition, appear to do.

    A theologian who discussed the history of belief in Jesus claimed that most of the so-called orthodox leaders of traditional Christianity were in fact Apollinarians. Apollinarius was convicted of the heresy of denying that Jesus was fully a human being (Dr. C.E Raven, Apollinarianism, cited by O.C. Quick in Doctrines of the Creed, p. 178). In other words “orthodoxy” has harbored a subtle form of a heresy which it condemned in others — that Jesus was not authentically human. Maurice Wiles, formerly Professor of Theology at Oxford University, was right when he said:

    “The church has not usually in practice (whatever it may have claimed to be doing in theory) based its understanding of Christ exclusively on the witness of the New Testament” (The Remaking of Christian Doctrine, p. 55).

    The following extraordinary admissions by prominent Trinitarian writers, experts on the creeds, should be carefully noted:

    “In the debates of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, Leonard Hodgson (The Doctrine of the Trinity, 1943, pp. 220,223) points out that ‘the unitarians [those who believe with the Bible that the Father only is the True God, John 17:3; 5:44; I Cor 8:4-6] as well as their opponents accepted the Bible as containing revelation given in the form of propositions, and concludes that ‘on the basis of argument which both sides held in common, the unitarians had the better case.’ And yet for all that it was not the unitarians who won the day. Christological doctrine has never in practice been derived simply by way of logical inference from the statements of Scripture” (Maurice Wiles, The Remaking Of Christian Doctrine, p. 55, emphasis added).

    Protestants who claim to derive their faith exclusively from the Bible should give careful attention to this remarkable statement!

    John’s Truth-test (I John 4:2, II John 7) is critically relevant to our times. Belief in Jesus as the Christ, a real human descendant of David is still the Biblical criterion for proof that one is drawing inspiration from the spirit of Truth. It remains as true as ever that the fundamental doctrinal test of the professing Christian has to do with his view of the person of Christ. The denial of the humanity of Jesus is the fatal flaw detected by the Johannine test. God’s Son is the Son of Mary and of David. Of sonship prior to His conception in history the Bible has nothing to say. Such a notion is destructive of Jesus’ genuine humanity and genuine descent from David. Jesus, the Jewish-Christian Messiah, needs urgently to be reinstated at the heart of Christian devotion. Belief in Him and in His Father, the only true God, leads to salvation (John 17:3). And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND AND Jesus Christ, WHOM THOU HAST SENT.
     
  5. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    love this verse ever so much..... and so one more time

     
  6. Ben Reid

    Ben Reid Member

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    Christgospel,

    Are you a Morman?

    I have my doubts about Trinitarianism too and believe that there is only one God -- God the Father. However, the teaching that Jesus, the begotten Son of God, did not exist prior to His incarnation is, well, hard to back up from Scripture.

    The Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Creator:

    God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 3:9)

    God, ... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, ... by whom also he made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:1, 2)
     
  7. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    no Ben, I am not a Morman....I am a Christian though not in the eyes of some.

    Isaiah 45: 11-12: "Thus says the LORD, (YHWH)... It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens..."

    It is clear that YHWH is alone responsible for creation and no one else. Of course people will now argue that YHWH includes the Son and the Holy Spirit. To show the fallacy of this argument, we will go to Psalm 110.

    Psalm 110: 1 - 4: "The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord" (adoni),

    "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."...You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."

    Adoni, means sovereign, Lord, and master. It is definitely not to be confused with adonai, which the Jews substituted for YHWH when they read the Scriptures.

    Jesus uses this verse to describe himself. It is used in Hebrews 1: 13 for Jesus again. It is the most quoted Old Testament Scripture in the New Testament. No one would argue that Lord (adoni) is not a reference to the Messiah (Jesus). So we have a verse that says,

    "YHWH says to the Messiah" (Jesus).

    This clearly shows that Jesus is not included in the name YHWH.

    Conclusion: This not only shows that YHWH and Jesus are not the same being, but it also shows that Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with creation. What the verses that speak of Jesus creating the world are referring to is that God through Jesus created the Messianic world to come, (the New Heavens and the New Earth) not the earth and the rest of the universe.

    Whenever you see verses that say that everything was created through Christ, you now have the base to know that it doesn’t mean he created everything. The word "through" in Greek, According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary means: because of. Now with this knowledge read John 1: 1-3 and Hebrews 1:2 again. Different story isn’t it?

    Hebrews 1:10

    "In the Beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

    The argument is, that since God created everything, and Jesus is attributed creation in Hebrews 1:10, that Jesus therefore must be God. First, we will star with Hebrews 1:2

    "Though a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the world." (sometimes it is translated as universe).

    The word that is translated as "world" is the Greek word aion. It means ages, as in the present evil age and the Messianic age to come.

    Aion- This word has been translated as eternal, world, and universe. When this word is translated as "eternal," such as "you will have eternal life," it means "you will have life in the age to come." This is Strong's Greek dictionary's (which is in the Strong's Concordance) definition of this word. It is number 165 in Strong's, please look it up.

    Age (aion) - 1. An unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2. This word is also used to describe this age, i.e. this time period we are in now, and the time period to come, i.e. the Messianic age.

    Hebrews 1:2 is speaking of the world (age) to come, the Messianic world. The New Earth and New Heavens.

    Hebrews 1:10 is a continuation of this thought. It is a passage of creation that was attributed to God in the Old Testament. Here it is used for the Son because through the Son (his death on the cross) will be created the New Earth and New Heavens. Flip the page to Hebrews 2:5 and it will clear up any doubt that you might have on what world we are talking about.

    Hebrews 2:5: "For it was not to angels that he subjected the WORLD TO COME, of WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING."

    This is in agreement with Hebrews 1:2. If not we have a massive contradiction.

    Jesus is responsible for the creation of the Messianic age (world) to come. These passages do not mean that Jesus created this earth and heaven. You have the scriptures in front of you, you decide.

    May God richly bless your understanding
     
  8. Ben Reid

    Ben Reid Member

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    OK, didn't mean to accuse you or anything :)

    It is not my place to judge whether you are a Chrstian or not.

    Except for the fact that Ephesians 3:9 says: "God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."

    I would not argue that. I believe that there is only one God -- God the Father. Jesus is a separate entity -- the only begotten Son of God. I'm not sure about the Holy Spirit.


    Hmmm ... an interesting interpretation. I'm really can't see how you got the New Heavens and the New Earth from "created all things ..."

    ???

    Except Ephesians 2:9 doesn't use the word through (according to my Strongs anyway.)

    You too :) Nothing wrong with friendly debate. I'm open to correction if shown to be wrong.
     
  9. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Hi Ben: Thanks for the friendly discussion - we sharpen our beliefs this way, yes?

    I will talk about Eph 3:9 and the new age (when Christ comes again) on a new thread for now though WHO IS THE CREATOR?The Sole Creator

    Genesis 1:1 ----- In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Job 9:8 ----- Which alone spreadeth out the heavens.

    Psalm 95:6 ----- let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

    Isaiah 40:28 ----- the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth.

    Isaiah 44:24 ----- I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (no Jesus there)

    Isaiah 45:12 ----- I have made the earth, and created man upon it

    Isaiah 45:18 ----- For, thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited; I am the Lord; and there is none else.

    Mark 13:19 ----- the creation which God created

    so in light of these passages, Ben, Eph. 3:9 can not contradict what is stated above so it must mean what?

    new post coming.... talk with you soonest.
     
  10. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    CG, do you hold to a view then that Jesus was born a man, all be it, Fathered by God, but a man, none the less, and then became God? 
     
  11. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Zone.... I hold the view that Jesus is Lord..... (master) and NOT God the self-existent one not the God of Deut 6:4 -
     
  12. Lanakila

    Lanakila Not responsible for the changes here.

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    What do you do with Isaiah 9:6,7? 6. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

    These verses definetly teach that Jesus was before his incarnation Mighty God.
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    But what of verses such as Revelation 22:13, where Jesus states that He is the Alpha and the Omega?  Could Jesus, not being born until a few thousand years in to creation, also be the beginning or creation?
     
  14. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

    +1
    Christ says he is God.
     
  15. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    show me one verse right now Job.... and lets be as the Bereans of Acts 17:11
     
  16. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

    +1
  17. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all ; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

    1) Jesus has a Father - which means Jesus has a God

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father : but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    2) Being that God is above all - Jesus is not equal to his God and our God

    Sure they are one (in mind and thought) Jesus is God's Agent (as well as His only begotten son) to share the gospel message of the kingdom of God to come. Jesus prayed John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

    if no rebuttal on this....let us look at another verse where Jesus said he was God.

    In Christ,
    Sondra
     
  18. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Hi Lanakila:

    There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God in Isaiah 9:6,7. This is wrong thinking. If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

    Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning mesenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

    The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:

    Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

    he Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

    Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

    According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

    Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

    From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

    The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

    "Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

    Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

    The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

    The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states:

    "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."

    Footnote:
    "Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence.

    God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself.

    Father-forever: ever devoted to his people.

    Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

    This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

    For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

    We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

    "In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

    Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

    God's blessings
     
  19. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    Jesus forgave sins. Jesus always existed. Jesus was sinless. Jesus was hated by most Jews because they knew he was claiming to be God. Jesus is omnipresent. What does this all mean? Jesus was God and Man. People have sometimes a hard time understanding how that can be but understanding God's nature isn't always easy with our human understanding.
     
  20. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    I can forgive my brother - that does not make me God

    Jesus always existed? No, I don't believe this. Jesus was was prophesied in Deut that he would be raised up among his brethren and that he we would come from David - He was begotten in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit - this is when he was begat.

    My understanding is that the Jews hated him because he claimed to be the son of God. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

    Jesus omnipresent? then you would believe also that Jesus is Omniscient, yes?
     
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