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Featured Jesus’s crucifixion, death and burial must be seen as undesirable from God’s perspective. Matt 26:39

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alpha-and-Omega, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    Jesus’s crucifixion, death and burial must be seen as undesirable from God’s perspective:-

    Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

    The above Scripture is conclusive evidence that God had reluctantly sacrificed his son Jesus to save only the believers from their sins.

    “Reluctance” implies that Jesus’s crucifixion, death and burial is to be seen as “undesirable” from God’s perspective.

    However, it only seems “desirable” from the perspective of Christians who know that Jesus had made his sacrifice to save them from their sins.

    Ultimately, whether it is “desirable” or not depends solely on the vantage point of the individual in question:-

    God’s viewpoint => Undesirable

    Christian viewpoint => Desirable only to believers who know that they would ultimately benefit from Jesus’s redemptive work on the Cross

    So, whether it’s “desirable” or not is wholly dependent on one’s vantage point, but God had reluctantly sacrificed his Son Jesus (John 3:16) to save only the believers (Revelation 21:8) from their sins.

    Consequently, Jesus’s crucifixion, death and burial must be seen as undesirable from God’s perspective.

    But it’s only “desirable” from a Christian perspective, because all believers should know that they will benefit from Jesus’s redemptive work on the Cross.

    Discuss.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It was God's plan and purpose from the foundation of the world. It was the only way to save mankind from having to suffer eternity in hell. God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. But He couldn't just forgive people because a penalty had to be paid for sin. This is because God is a righteous Judge as well as a God of love. And according to God's justice, the soul who sins must pay the penalty of death.

    It had to be a human being to pay the penalty, but none of us because we have all sinned and have to pay our own penalty, therefore, none of us can pay the penalty for everyone else. It had to be a totally sinless person, and it had to be God as well in order to pay the complete penalty for the sin of the whole world.

    This is why God freely sent His only Son to become a man and to die on the cross to pay the sin penalty for all mankind. But there is a catch. Those who desire to be saved from hell need to receive Christ as Saviour and Lord. Those who reject the free pardon through Christ must pay their own penalty - an eternity in hell.

    Jesus knew when He prayed the prayer in Gethsemane, that there was no other way. He had to go to the cross and have His Father turn His back on Him as he paid the penalty as He died on the cross.

    The death and resurrection of Christ is the foundation of our Christian profession. It makes the difference between heaven and hell for us. Preaching Christ crucified and risen again as the real power of God, not the supernatural gifts or miracles. Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe."

    So, we should not make light of what Jesus did for us on the cross.
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    The verse does not convey that in the slightest. In fact God says that he was pleased to bruise Christ in relation to the cross and the sacrifice.

    Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    There is zero reluctance by God the Father to have sacrificed his son.
     
  4. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    A mere opinion which is at odds with Matthew 26:39.

    Jesus’s unwillingness to go to the Cross is clearly stated in this particular passage. But Isaiah 53 does nothing to invalidate the New Testament passage in Matthew 26:39.

    No passage in the Bible can be used to negate any other Scripture in this book.

    Matthew 26:39 is still valid. It is clear that Jesus sought an alternative to the Cross, which implies unwillingness on his part.

    Consequently, God himself was reluctant to send his Son Jesus to death on the Cross.

    Since we know that Christ is the Son of God who is filled with the Spirit of God: Colossians 2:9.

    Consequently, the will of the Son is also the will of the Father, vice versa: John 10:30.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    As I said, nothing in that scripture shows reluctance on the part of the Father, only the Son but the Son willfully accepts the Father's planned way.

    You said, "God had reluctantly sacrificed his son Jesus" but you did not show any reluctance on the Father's part.



    That's wrong.


    No, the will of the son is clearly not the will of the Father as the verse you have been misapplying shows:

    Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
    Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
    Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
    Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
     
  6. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    Ultimately, the bold type shows that the “will of the Son is also the will of the Father (Vice Versa)”.

    Otherwise, Jesus would simply have refused the Cross, which he didn’t. John 10:30
     
  7. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Sometimes we have to leave an unteachable person to their own devices. :)
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    No, it doesn't. Your conclusions are not supported by any of the texts. The Son set aside his will and accepted the Father's will. Never did the Father accept the Son's will.
     
  9. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    Then, perhaps you would like to comment on a different thread:

    The vessels of destruction are predestined by the Almighty: Romans 9.

    I would be curious to have your viewpoint on this particular matter.

    Do we really suppose that God created all the vessels of destruction AND vessels of mercy to be EQUAL in all respects.

    As there are clearly global and macro scale disparities in terms of Salvation, national wealth, natural resources, intellectual property, military capability, economic and political influence etc.

    Do we really suppose that the Creator has bestowed the same blessings on all countries, which are either vessels of destruction or vessels of mercy?

    God is completely impartial in light of Romans 9:21?

    Does God not have favourites at all: Romans 9:21.
     
  10. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    Though there was intense trepidation expressed by Jesus' physical and emotional expressions in the garden that evening, we know from the book of Hebrews that there was a joyful anticipation which also resided in the Savior's heart and which ultimately moved Him to carry out the Father's plan.
    As far as the Father is concerned, we know that He does not take pleasure in afflicting men, but this does not mean that He is reluctant to do so. Since He is infinite in His wisdom and goodness, there can be no mistakes nor regrets with the Almighty. He is absolutely perfect in His all of His purposes including the manner in which He carries them out.
     
  11. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What God is interested in at present is that as many as possible hear the gospel of Christ and receive Him as their Saviour and Lord. When Paul first went to Corinth, he determined to know nothing among them except Christ and Him crucified. He did not comment on the paganism of the Corinthians. He did not go there to change their society or culture. He went there to preach the gospel and get people saved and delivered of demons.
     
  12. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    Book of Hebrews?

    But you didn’t care to mention the exact verse which you have claimed that there is “joyful anticipation”.

    Consequently, I do not believe there is such a verse at all in the Book of Hebrews.

    Besides, there is another fundamental flaw to this argument.

    Because the events you have described have already happened in the 1st century AD; namely, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

    But the Bible is very specific on this point. Those events described have happened only ONCE, but will never happen again.

    Since we know that Christ will return to Reign, but never to be crucified again.

    But the Bible is clear that those events have only happened ONCE. It doesn’t say more than one, nor does it say that Christ would return to be crucified yet again.

    So what do you have to say?
     
  13. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    In response to the bold type it has to be said that the death, burial and resurrection have only happened ONCE in the 1st century AD.

    But nowhere in the Bible does it say that those events have happened more than ONCE.

    Regardless of whether or not you have accepted the Son’s will it doesn’t change the fact that those events mentioned have happened only ONCE in the 1st century AD.

    That is all you need to know. But everything else is superfluous.
     
  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Mystery Worshipper Supporter

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    This verse in no way proves that Jesus was unwilling to go to the Cross. God has only one will, and it is not divided. Christ's human will was in harmony with his divine will.
     
  15. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    However, it is still unequivocal that the Crucifixion happened only ONCE in the 1st century AD.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christ was crucified for a second or third time.

    The Crucifixion happened ONCE and once ONLY.

    Nothing else you have said can change the fact that the Crucifixion happened only ONCE during the 1st century AD.
     
  16. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Mystery Worshipper Supporter

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    I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand, honestly.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    All of this is merely a strange combination of strawman fallacies.
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Agreed. Pure confusion and nonsense.
     
  19. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    Whether or not Jesus was willing to go to the Cross has no relevance at all with the fact that his Crucifixion has happened only ONCE during the 1st century AD.
     
  20. Alpha-and-Omega

    Alpha-and-Omega New Member

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    Still, the fact remains that Jesus’s death, burial and resurrection has happened only once during the 1st century AD, but he will never be crucified again according to the Bible.

    But it is simply a fallacy to call this argument a “fallacy”.

    It is nothing more than a twisted exaggeration to call it a “fallacy of argument”.

    Like it or not, Jesus will never be crucified again, but those who disobeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be smitten by the “vengeance” of Christ and by “everlasting destruction” on the day of Judgment: Isaiah 24:21-22, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 and Revelation 6:15-16.
     
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