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Featured Jerusalem - mystery Babylon because of Revelation 11:8?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


    John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


    The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


    Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


    .

     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation, the image of the beast, setup and placed in the temple will see Jesus returning to this earth. Did not happen in 70 AD.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),(John 10:22)
    Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


    Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
    Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You should read the rest of Matthew 24.
     
  5. berachah

    berachah Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth Supporter

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    I understand your position but I dont study carnal ramblings no matter how well thought out. Those two witnesses are from the body of Christ.. hence 'Jerusalem'. While deceived Christian's are looking at natural Jerusalem for signs, the real battles are taking place against the new Jerusalem. Christianity is going into total spiritual bondage in the future... partly because of the blindness brought about by the deception in modern day Palestine.
     
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    The truth is, you are both mistaken. The Beast and false prophet will be deceiving the ENTIRE WORLD from the city of Jerusalem. It is no wonder than that John wrote that Mystery Babylon is "that great city" referring to Jerusalem?
     
  7. JohnC2

    JohnC2 Member

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    Mystery Babylon referred to in the OP is the civil, judicial, and state religious system which secular governments use to keep the people under control.

    This system is far more palatable to people than Martial law - aka The Military runs the entire show and kills whoever gets in the way...

    Key point #1. The legal system worldwide credits Hammurabi - a king of Ancient Babylon - for the founding of our modern legal and courts system.

    Key point #2. Outside nearly every court worldwide - we see the woman holding the balances. That’s Justica - the Roman goddess of law, order, and tradition...

    Key point 3. All it took for the American church to back completely out of politics was a tax exemption for tithes and offerings... What Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus the great, The Cesars, Napoleon, and Stalin could not achieve with the sword, the firey furnace, lions, and the barrel of a gun - we achieved during peacetime with a simple change in tax law.....
     
  8. berachah

    berachah Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth Supporter

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    Actually you are incorrect.

    The sooner Christians realize this dispensation is about spiritual powers and authorities, the sooner true revelation of events will become clear. Jerusalem in this age is not a natural place... just as God calling his people out of Babylon before judgement is not calling them from a natural city in the desert.

    The Body of Christ (Jerusalem) will go into bondage just as it happened in the OT. That is a fact. Apply all the other prophecies for this time to the Body of Christ and you will be a lot closer to truth.

    Natural Jerusalem has fulfilled its purpose just as the old sacrificial did and has passed away. There is nothing relevant about modern Israel except that it is a tool of deception and bondage for Christians by the Antichrist.

    Just surprised so many Christians believe that God has sent a bunch of non believing , non repentant, Christian hating atheists, parading as Jews, to a land God has moved on from.
     
  9. David G. Smith

    David G. Smith New Member

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    I agree modern israel is a tool of deception for many christians.
    the true church is the new israel in spirit tho.
    the new jerusalem is a giant cube that comes out of the sky/heaven etc. with returning yeshuah at end of tribulation.
    babylon is at that time destroyed and the false christ beast,falseprophet and abaddon are thrown into lake of fire and satan bound for 1000 years.
     
  10. David G. Smith

    David G. Smith New Member

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    jerusalem is clearly the geographical location of 'that great city', babylon at the time the two wittnesses are killed in it.
    mystery babylon is the dominant religio/politic system of the world as well a city yes, but geographically could be referenced to different sites thru the past such as hidden/occult vatican/cityoflondon/d.c/illuminati/bankers/jesuits/newvenice/bloodlines crap etc. but when the two wittnesses are killed, babylon is geographically jerusalem.
    clearly the false-christ and cohort of kings under him despise/d the mystery babylon system tho and they are who destroy it to be replaced with their system so the corrupt system that rules now that is a bit goddess orientated at the elite occult level will be done away with for outright worship of masculine beast.
    the city aspect is occupied and remains tho, until yehuah's return and it is squashed by his new jerusalem cube city, yay!
     
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  11. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And there it is, folks. Prophecy fulfilled! Jerusalem would be a stumbling stone to the world.

    I will rest on Ezekiel (in conjunction with Leviticus) as well as Isaiah for the literal fulfillment of a regathered national Israel. Yes, initially in unbelief. And the requirement that a corporate, collective, national Israel leadership be in place at the end time to recognize their national leadership's rejection of Yeshua, turn to Him, and petition His return. Yeshua is quite clear in Hosea that until Israel (both Israel and Judah) does this, He will not return. He reaffirmed that in Matthew 23.

    And if the Church is now Jacob (Israel), then it begs the question... when did the Church reject Yeshua before He returned to His place as stated in Hosea? Especially since the Church was not an entity until after Yeshua returned to His place. That same entity that rejected Yeshua, according to Hosea, must be the entity that realizes that offense, turns to Him, and petitions for His return.

    And if there is no longer any real physical Hebrews left, then we might as well give up. Yeshua is never coming back. That there are no physical Hebrews left is absurd. Even Obed, of the Messianic lineage, was only 25% Hebrew. But he was still in the lineage of Yeshua. So there never has been a requirement that one be a majority Hebrew in their genetics to be considered a physical Hebrew. And there have been genetic markers and statistical studies established that show the Hebrew genetic lineage is not gone.

    So one who claims to trust in Yeshua better hope there is a physical, national, corporate Jacob (Israel) complete with leadership in place to petition Yeshua's return, or they can forget the idea of Yeshua ever returning, if Yeshua told us the truth in Hosea. Amazing how a group that claims to know Yeshua and claims to look forward His return will go to great lengths to negate the conduit that facilitates that return. Could cause one to wonder if they follow another Yeshua (Jesus).
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is really strange: I wonder what OTHER city called Jerusalem in what OTHER Israel will be where Jesus descends and sets up His millennial temple?

    Readers: this is just one more attempt at using human reasoning rather than wait on the Holy Spirit for His intent. Don't believe a word of it.

    There IS only one nation of Israel on the map, and it will be to that city the false Christ (Antichrist Beast) will go, and after that where Jesus Himself will reside during His 1000 year reign.
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I think you missed it big time! The "Babylon" in Revelation is referring to the city of Jerusalem during the time the Antichrist Beast and false prophet will be deceiving the entire world - from Jerusalem.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You are ignoring the words recorded in John chapter 19 found below, which are a fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.

    Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
    Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
    Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
    Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."



    You are ignoring the words of Peter on the Day of Pentecost, when he addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", and "men of Israel", and "all the house of Israel".
    Was the Spirit poured out on that day, and did they mourn for the one they had pierced a few weeks earlier, in fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?
    Who was Peter addressing that day?


    Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
    Act 2:15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
    Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
    Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAYS GOD, THAT I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.
    Act 2:18 AND ON MY MENSERVANTS AND ON MY MAIDSERVANTS I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY.
    Act 2:19 I WILL SHOW WONDERS IN HEAVEN ABOVE AND SIGNS IN THE EARTH BENEATH: BLOOD AND FIRE AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
    Act 2:20 THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD.
    Act 2:21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.'
    Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
    Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
    Act 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
    Act 2:25 For David says concerning Him: 'I FORESAW THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE MY FACE, FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, THAT I MAY NOT BE SHAKEN.
    Act 2:26 THEREFORE MY HEART REJOICED, AND MY TONGUE WAS GLAD; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL REST IN HOPE.
    Act 2:27 FOR YOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HADES, NOR WILL YOU ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.
    Act 2:28 YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF JOY IN YOUR PRESENCE.'
    Act 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
    Act 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
    Act 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
    Act 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
    Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
    Act 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
    Act 2:35 TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '
    Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
    Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
    Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

    Nobody can honestly deny the fact that when the Church began it was made up almost entirely of Israelites.
    The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
    The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".

    This fact is confirmed by Romans 11:1, and James 1:1.


    .
     
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  15. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I am not really convinced that when the "whole world" is referenced, regarding the Antichrist, that it really means the entire planet. The "whole world" back in the day this was written was the Roman Empire, so it is a lot of presumption to think that Antichrist literally controls the whole world. One reason would be the "kings of the east" that are mentioned during the bowl judgements, which corresponds to Daniel 11:44. No doubt deception will be world wide. That is the characteristic of the world we live in now.

    In Seal 4 of Revelation 6 for instance, read it very closely. It does not say that 1/4 of the people of the earth are slain, it says that Death and Hades are given control over 1/4 of the earth, and to kill. Major difference. Yet I have predominately heard over the years by many prophecy teachers that 1/4 of earth are killed. But that is not exactly what the text says.

    We have to make sure we don't impose more on the text than what is being said. I think that is the primary culprit that leads to so many wild differences in prophecy interpretation. A lot of "slight of hand" stuff goes on with the texts.
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Let's look at the words of Yeshua in Hosea....

    Hosea 5:15 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
    Till they acknowledge their offense.
    Then they will seek My face;
    In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

    And what is the result of them seeking Him at that time....

    Hosea 6:1-2 (NKJV) Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
    He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
    2 After two days He will revive us;
    On the third day He will raise us up,
    That we may live in His sight.

    If it has already been fulfilled as you suggest, then when was Jacob (both Israel and Judah) restored and living in His sight?

    The key there is "return again to My place". In order to return to His place, He had to have left it. And where from did Yeshua come and where did He return? Obviously the Father's place. Now I could be wrong, but once Yeshua ascended back to the Father (His place), I have not seen any indication that He came back yet. Let's combine that passage in Hosea with Matthew 23:38-39...

    Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

    Corporate, collective, physical Jacob (Israel) has to turn back to the Lord, acknowledge their offense, and petition Yeshua to return before He will. They have to say 'blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord".

    And when did the people Yeshua was saying that to then collectively say "blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" since He left that would cause Him to return?

    So to suggest that Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:39 were fulfilled already is really taking liberties with the text to the extreme.

    Zechariah 12:10 has is not talking about what Hosea and Matthew are. Neither is Peter in Jerusalem, who was referring to Joel. John 19 didn't reference Hosea either. And neither did you in your response. You side stepped the reference I made to Hosea to throw the discussion off. Neat lawyer's trick, but it won't fly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Daniel was written about 537 BC.

    Hosea was written about 722-710 BC, which was before the captivity in Babylon.


    Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
    Hos 6:2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.
    Hos 6:3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
    Hos 6:4 "O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, And like the early dew it goes away.
    Hos 6:5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
    Hos 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
    Hos 6:7 "But like men they transgressed the covenant; There they dealt treacherously with Me.
    Hos 6:8 Gilead is a city of evildoers And defiled with blood.
    Hos 6:9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man, So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem; Surely they commit lewdness.
    Hos 6:10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel: There is the harlotry of Ephraim; Israel is defiled.
    Hos 6:11 Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you, When I return the captives of My people.

    ..............................................................................................

    JFB Commentary:

    Hosea 6:1

    Hos_6:1-11. The Israelites’ exhortation to one another to seek the Lord.
    At Hos_6:4 a new discourse, complaining of them, begins; for Hos_6:1-3 evidently belong to Hos_5:15, and form the happy termination of Israel’s punishment: primarily, the return from Babylon; ultimately, the return from their present long dispersion. Hos_6:8 perhaps refers to the murder of Pekahiah; the discourse cannot be later than Pekah’s reign, for it was under it that Gilead was carried into captivity (2Ki_15:29).
    let us return — in order that God who has “returned to His place” may return to us (Hos_5:15).
    torn, and ... heal — (Deu_32:39; Jer_30:17). They ascribe their punishment not to fortune, or man, but to God, and acknowledge that none (not the Assyrian, as they once vainly thought, Hos_5:13) but God can heal their wound. They are at the same time persuaded of the mercy of God, which persuasion is the starting-point of true repentance, and without which men would not seek, but hate and flee from God. Though our wound be severe, it is not past hope of recovery; there is room for grace, and a hope of pardon. He hath smitten us, but not so badly that He cannot heal us (Psa_130:4).

    ....................................................................................

    The Jews were returned to the land after the captivity in Babylon, which occurred after the Book of Hosea was written.

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Or why couldn't it be the Jerusalem of the 1st century?
    Luke and Revelation go together like white on rice, and who would dare call him a false apostle?
    Most Bible scholars, both futurists and preterists, agree that Luke 21 is talking about 70ad Jerusalem, but they need to also reconcile his Temple discourses to Revelation [and the OT]. IMHO

    Luke appears to be the only Gospel writer that uses "avenge/vengeance"?


    LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"

    Isaiah 61:2
    [Luke 4:18-19 Luke 21:22]
    To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
    And the day of vengeance <5359> of our 'Elohim, To comfort all mourners.


    Luke 21:22
    For these are the days of avenging/vengeance<1557>, to fulfill<4130> all things having been written<1125>. [Isaiah 61:2]


    Luke 18:7
    “And shall God not avenge<1557> His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? [Revelation 6:10 Revelation 19:2]

     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  19. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    The context starts in Hosea 5:14. There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original writings. JFB errs in not taking the context that was set preceding Hosea 6:1. Common mistake.

    And it doesn't account for the "after two days" and "on the third day". It could be literally two 24 hr days, or it could be 2000 years if Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 are applied. Either way, even that portion of Hosea 6 fits the context of Hosea 5:14-15 more appropriately than JFB's idea on it.

    So, will respectfully disagree base on the hermeneutic maxim of taking "the plain sense of scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one end up with nonsense". And using solid principles of grammar and structure I learned in grade school that some even in academia have forgotten.
     
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Truly words of wisdom.
    Luke's Jerusalem Temple discourses are so simple, even a child could understand it........

    LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"

    Luke 19:41
    And as He nears<1448>, beholding the City<4172>, and He laments<2799> over Her,

    Luke 21:24
    "And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led into captivity into all the Nations. [Revelation 13:10]
    And Jerusalem shall be being trodden<3961> by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
    [Revelation 11:2]

    The exact word form of #4172 used in Luke 19:41 occurs 7 times in Revelation
    Now this is interesting.
    Both Luke 21:20 and Revelation 20 use the greek word <2944>.
    The divine puzzle pieces are starting to fall in place.

    Luke 21
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem<2419> surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that nigh at hand the desolation of Her.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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