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Featured Jerusalem - mystery Babylon because of Revelation 11:8?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Revelation 11:8 obviously refers to Jerusalem. But does that verse imply that Jerusalem, is mystery Babylon the Great?

    Let's take a look at that verse a little more carefully.

    Remember John was living in the first century and he was writing to the churches at that time, all that he experienced and wrote down in Revelation.

    What was Jerusalem like at that time? The religious establishment had rejected Jesus and were non-too fond of the church that had sprang up afterward. Which I think John was saying to his generation who would relate that condition to Jerusalem in his day, was like Sodom and Egypt.

    Revelation 11:8 is not talking about Jerusalem being like Sodom and Egypt in the end times, but
    Jerusalem of the Pharisees and Sadducee's in his day, being like Sodom and Egypt.

    Think of John reporting to a church congregation of his day, the words he is saying in Revelation 11:8. They would relate. It is not intended to be a condition of Jerusalem in the end times. The two witnesses's bodies laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem is end times, but not the called Sodom and Egypt. That part was in John's day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
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  2. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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  3. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Egypt represents Bondage (Hagar) and Sodom represents Corruption (Satan).

    Hagar, the Egyptian 'Earthly Mother'...

    Galatians 4:25
    "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children"


    Thus...

    Earthly Jerusalem = Hagar/Bondage
    New Jerusalem = Sarah/Freedom


    Galatians 4:26
    "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"
     
  4. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Great verses!


    Galatians 4:30
    But what is saying the Scripture?
    'be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628) the maid-servant and the son of her,

    for not no shall be tenanting/inheriting the son of the maid-servant with the son of the free-one

    Same exact form of #1544 used in only 2 verses of the NT

    Revelation 11:2

    and the court outside of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!/ekbale <1544> (5628)! out-side<1857>, and thou mayest not be measure it, that it was given to the nations,
    and the holy City they shall be trampling forty and two months.

    Who are the sons of the kingdom symbolizing?

    Matthew 8:12
    “But the sons of the kingdom shall be being cast out/ekblhqhsontai<1544> into the darkness, the outer<1857>.
    There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

     
  6. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    Yes, this is true - but this is also why Satan is 'coming up from the abyss' (Revelation 11:7-12) (for the 2nd & last round) at the 3rd woe (7th Trumpet = 7 bowls of wrath) (the kingdom of heaven is established at the 7th Trumpet & Satan's kingdom is given the 7 bowls of wrath.)

    At this point in the narrative of Revelation, everyone will have to choose between the 'good' & the 'looks like good'.

    Satan's kingdom wants to appear as if it has reformed itself: previously there were animal sacrifices (for 1150 days), now, in imitation of Jesus bringing a new covenant, the worship of the living image of the false prophet will stand in for these animal sacrifices.
     
  7. Mark51

    Mark51 Newbie Supporter

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    Jerusalem was once, literally, called Sodom because of its unclean practices. (Isaiah 1:8-10; compare Ezekiel 16:49, 53-58.) Egypt, the first world power, sometimes appears as a picture of this world system of things.-Isaiah 19:1.

    “Babylon the Great,“ the “harlot,“ and “Jerusalem”-symbolically depicted in this scripture-all refer to the same entity: Christendom. In other words, the world empire of false religion.
     
  8. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Recently heard an alternative position that seems to have some validity. I heard pieces of this idea in the past, but Joel Richardson makes a pretty strong case that Mystery Babylon is more likely Mecca. That is in conjunction with his assertion that the Islamic Caliphate is probably a better candidate for the revived empire of the Daniel 2 statue "feet" and that the false messiah / antichrist will be an Assyrian as Isaiah 10 seems to suggest.

    Islam is really an outshoot of the ancient Babylonian religion. The Moon God and other stuff. One can see, and I have known for quite some time, many artifacts from way back into the Babylonian and Summarian culture of idols with the same crescent and moon imagery that Islam shares. Even the Kaaba in Mecca has many of the ancient symbolism of Babylon on it. Mohammed just brought it around to a mono deity as opposed to a pile of deities. He was strongly influenced by Jewish and Christian thought in that regard.

    Still looking into the details that Richardson put forth, but so far seems to have some solid validity. Worthy of more serious inquiry.
     
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hmmm...That would make Muhammad a type of the anti-christ I would think....plausible...

    Well, at least that view would take the heat off Vatican City and the Pope being anti-christ

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...es-the-antichrist-over-500-years-ago.6814752/
    Martin Luther identifies the Antichrist over 500 years ago!

    Probably because of the fact of what [OC Jerusalem] is arrayed in, as shown in Reve 17 and 18:


    Revelation 17:4
    The Woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls,

    Revelation 18:
    12 “merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet,


    16 “and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold
    ....

    If one is familiar with the Hebrew OT/OC, they will see that purple, scarlet and fine linen were associated with the OC Mosaic Priesthood and Tabernacle

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...le+and+fine+linen&t=NKJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1

    1st time mentioned in OT:


    Exodus 25:4
    “blue, purple, and scarlet thread, fine linen, and goats' hair;


    Also used in this covenantle parable of Luke 16.
    [Looks as if this Rich man could be a type of OC "King/Priest" and the Woman's husband shown in Revelation 18:7............]


    http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

    Luke 16:19

    “There was a certain Rich-man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.


    Revelation 18:

    7 “In the measure that She glorified herself and lived luxuriously,

    in the same measure give her torment and sorrow;
    for She says in her heart, ‘I sit as Queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'

    16 “and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold....

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/she-who-sits-as-queen-not-widow-never-mourns.5617198/
    She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  10. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    The 'Assyrian' was/ will be a leader that is given for punishment.

    The leader of apostate DNA Israel is/ will be an antichrist.
    The leader of apostate Christianity is/ will be an antichrist.

    As a punishment for this apostasy, the Assyrian will defeat them and force them into idol worship. To focus exclusively on the vehicle of punishment (Islam) ignores the reasons that got people into that situation to begin with (the antichrists that are in the TV pulpit, spewing hatred against others while ignoring the beam in their own eye).

    As to Mecca as Mystery Babylon, does Mecca rule the world right now? No. Maybe it will in the future, but it will only rule the apostate.
     
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  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You are trying to produce a modern city of Jerusalem which does not oppose God, in order to make your doctrine work.

    If the city is not like Sodom and Egypt, then please explain why the two witnesses are killed in that same city?

    (1 John 2:22-23)

    .
     
  12. berachah

    berachah Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth Supporter

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    There is ZERO % chance of that. Mystery Babylon is the end time world system of the Antichrist. It will manifest mostly through the United Nations, but will have its spiritual capital in Jerusalem. (The Antichrist will unite faiths under the Antichrist deception in Jerusalem) Modern Israel was birthed for that very purpose
     
  13. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I understand your position. Before you are so quick to dismiss Richardson's idea on the subject, it is probably worth taking a look at the details of his position. It may not be thoroughly valid, but it is well thought out and reasoned.

    Proverbs 18:13 (ISV) Whoever answers before listening
    is both foolish and shameful.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The two witnesses will be killed in Jerusalem because that is where they will be battling the beast - on the temple mount because John is told to measure the temple and them who worship inside.

    The image of the beast will have been placed in temple on day 1185. That triggers the great tribulation, so the Jews begin to flee. The two witnesses battle the beast to give cover for the Jews fleeing to the wilderness.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Jewish historian Josephus said Roman Fort Antonia was built upon a gigantic rock. That rock now lies under the Dome of the Rock.


    The following comes from Wars of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 5, Chapter 5, Section 8.



    8. Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod’s palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere.



    During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

    After the Roman soldiers ran down to rescue Paul from the mob in the temple, they carried Paul up the stairs. Paul spoke to the crowd from the stairs. Therefore, he would have to be above them on the stairs. (See Acts of the Apostles 21:32-40.)

    We also find references to "Herod's Praetorium" in Acts of the Apostles 23:35. (NKJV)

    The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is actually the remains of Roman Fort Antonia.
    It is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts built during that
    time period.

    Jesus said not one temple stone would be left stacked one upon another, and that is what happened during 70 AD.
    Why would any Christian believe an existing wall made up of stones stacked one upon another could be a part of the Jewish temple?

    The true location of the ancient temple was near Gihon Spring.




    The rest of your story found above sounds like something that comes straight out of one of Tim LaHaye's Left Behind movies. It is based on the same reality as your location of the Jewish temple.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Yeah, I agree that the actual temple area is down the hill from the supposed temple mount. What many think is the the temple mount is more likely the Antonia Fortress. And you are right, probably in the area of the Gihon Spring. Water would be critical to temple activities. I am convinced the Dome of the Rock was originally a temple to Jupiter. there are other octagonal shaped temples of similar build in other areas of the former Roman Empire that were temples to Jupiter.

    Bob Cornuke is another researcher who has postulated the above idea.

     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I believe the Dome of the Rock may be the partil fulfillment of Deut 28.

    Not only were the Jews petrified with fear upon the arrival of the Roman army in 70ad, the Jews now living in Jerusalem have to wake up everyday to see a shiny gold pagan dome not far from the wailing wall....


    Deuteronomy 28:
    67 In morning thou sayest 'who shall give evening' and in evening thou shalt say 'who shall give morning'. From awe of heart of thee which thou shalt fear and from sight of eyes of thee which thou shalt see"

    http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

    While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns;......
    The dead bodies of priests and worshipers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength.

    At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the City. [Revelation 6:6 "denarius"]

    The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear;
    there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior,........

    In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, ...........

    There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection. Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged. The robbers and seditious were all punished with death : the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
    After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.
    Deuteronomy 28:
    67 In morning thou sayest 'who shall give evening' and in evening thou shalt say 'who shall give morning'. From awe of heart of thee which thou shalt fear and from sight of eyes of thee which thou shalt see"
    68
    “And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
    And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Bab2. where the next temple will be built, I am not in a position to say. But whereever it is built. in that structure the Abomination of Desolation image of the beast will be placed triggering the great tribulation.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I have Bob's book "Temple".

    It is excellent, because it is based on the work of well-known Israeli archeologist, Eli Shukron.
    Eli is the man who rediscovered the Pool of Siloam.

    .
     
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