Jeremiah 8:8

[Future Man]

"How do you say, We are wise, and the Law of Jehovah is with us? Lo, certainly the lying pen of the scribes has written falsely. MKJV

Used in support of the Muslim assertion that the Hebrew scriptures were tampered with and therefore unreliable.

 

[Evangelion]

The Muslim argument is easily refuted.

The first thing we have to remember is that this verse refers to the Law of Moses. The second thing we have to remember is that the scribes weren't the ones who wrote the Law in the first place.

With these two points in mind, let's examine the verse as it appears in the New English Translation:

• 
  How can you say, “We are wise!
  We have the law of the Lord”?
  The truth is, those who teach it have used their writings
  to make it say what it does not really mean.

Clearly, the "lying scribes" are those who have written misleading commentaries on the Law itself; adding all those nasty little by-laws and "heavy burdens" for which Christ so vigorously castigated them.

This is confirmed by Christ's own words:

• 
  Matthew 15:3, 6, 9.
  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
  
  [...]
  
  And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
  
  [...]
  
  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

See also:

• 
  Mark 7:8-9, 13.
  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
  
  [...]
  
  Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

It's impossible to miss the obvious connexion with Jeremiah 8:8.

 

[Future Man]

Good thing you don't go the route of 'Textman' on TOL who insist that half of John has been tampered with.

Now how about that flat earth question?

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Future Man
"How do you say, We are wise, and the Law of Jehovah is with us? Lo, certainly the lying pen of the scribes has written falsely. MKJV

Used in support of the Muslim assertion that the Hebrew scriptures were tampered with and therefore unreliable.

Here is how Jewish scholars translate this verse. Note in vs. 9 “the wise men. . .have rejected the word of the Lord" The word translated scribes, vs. 8, is כפר saw-far . The word for wise men, vs. 9, is חכם khaw-kawm Scribes are never called "khaw-kawm". These are two different groups. Why would the wise men be punished for the actions of the scribes? They were not, they had the “word of the Lord” but they rejected it and God punished them. He lists the punishments in the following verses.

• 
  (LXX) Jer 8:8 How will ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? In vain have the scribes used a false pen.
  9 The wise men are ashamed, and alarmed, and taken; because they have rejected the word of the Lord; what wisdom is there in them?
  
  (JPS) 8 How do ye say: ‘We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us’? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.
  9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; Lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

ûbung

 

[Evangelion]

Yes, yes, yes, we appreciate your contribution as well, OS.

It's very nice.

 

[Future Man]

Now that is rather enlightening, OS.

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Future Man
"How do you say, We are wise, and the Law of Jehovah is with us? Lo, certainly the lying pen of the scribes has written falsely. MKJV

Used in support of the Muslim assertion that the Hebrew scriptures were tampered with and therefore unreliable


Eph writes...

It might be that JER 8:8... refers to the Masoritic text..which is used in many Torah versions today...along with sad to say many "Bibles" in use also...!

Since the Muslims are wayyyy out in left field...maybe even out in the parking lot.....I'll not address ALL their many errors here and now...!

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Yes, yes, yes, we appreciate your contribution as well, OS.

It's very nice.

?

 

[postrib]

...the Muslims are wayyyy out in left field...

Islam denies the atoning death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and therefore denies the very gospel (1 Corinthians 15:2-6). Islam's claim that an archangel revealed the new teaching of the Koran to Muhammad perfectly fulfills Paul's warning in Galatians 1:8-9.