Jehovah's Witnesses

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Sorry, I've been gone for a while, came back to see a lot of talk about how JW's didn't immediately rid themselves of crosses, one of which looking similar to one of the many crosses popular in freemasonry.

Keep in mind the first to use this crown and cross was catholicism. Both JWs and freemasons got it from catholicism... not each other.

Also note that freemasonry has also borrowed "holy" symbols from every major religion out there... and that JWs exposed the cross as a non-biblical concept about a century ago. The stake Jesus died on could have had a crossbeam... or it may not have. The bible doesn't specify because the shape doesn't matter.
 
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Do you celebrate your childs birthday and your own with cake, ice cream, blow out the candles, and invite all JW children to help your child celebrate?

Do even visit or associate with relatives who are family but do not belong to the JW religion.

As a JW... Birthdays don't have specifically malicious roots like Halloween and pagan roots like Christmas/Easter... but the only two mentions of birthday celebrations in the bible ended up in some nastiness. Now-a-days birthdays tend to feature people being obligated to spend a bunch of money to encourage the kid to be self-centered all day. It isn't always the case obviously, but we just don't buy into the "obligatory presents" traditions. When I see something my kid would like, I get it. And the next time she's particularly good, I give her a reward.

And yes, we visit with the Jewish side of her family just as much as anyone else. The idea that "JWs are forbidden from ever talking to someone outside of the congregation" is nothing but propaganda.
 
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Another interesting change in JW doctrine has been the worship of Jesus Christ. At one time Jesus Christ was worshipped by JW's, but now it is forbidden - because Jesus Christ is not Jehovah. Apparently, at one time Jesus Christ was Jehovah and was accorded worship. My, how times change!

According to Jesus, he never was his own father.
the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28)
20 My prayer is not for them only, but for all who will have faith in me through their word; 21 May they all be one! Even as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, so let them be in us, so that all men may come to have faith that you sent me. 22 And the glory which you have given to me I have given to them, so that they may be one even as we are one; 23 I in them, and you in me, so that they may be made completely one, and so that it may become clear to all men that you have sent me and that they are loved by you as I am loved by you.(john 17:20-23)

Not only does Jesus himself teach us that the Father is greater than him, but he prays that we should all be in union with the Father just as he is. Unless we assume ourselves to be God, it seems obvious that we should all unify ourselves with God... not that we're literally human forms of God.

JWs started out as "bible students" noticing that "the church" was preaching things that weren't in the bible. No, we didn't catch everything instantly. We don't believe that he "was" triune with his Father, and then he "stopped being so when we changed our mind." We believe that the message in the bible makes it right, not that "we say so and we're an authority." The whole purpose of the bible student movement was to put authority to the test and research what the bible really teaches for ourselves.
 
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Chrystal-J

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Keep in mind the first to use this crown and cross was catholicism. Both JWs and freemasons got it from catholicism... not each other.

It's weird that JWs would get anything from Catholicism, since they seem to think it's so wrong in it's doctrine. Why would they copy something they think is wrong?

Anyway, here's an article regarding an expensive house called "Beth Sarim" that one of the early JW leader's (Judge Rutherford) bought to live in himself (for $10 from the JW Organization). He then deeded it to Moses, Abraham, David, etc. should they return to earth to live as humans.
quote from article:
The deed for Beth Sarim, written by Rutherford, said that the property was to be held "perpetually in trust" for the Old Testament "princes" and was to be surrendered to them once they arrived.
LINK: Beth Sarim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LINK to pic of Beth Sarim with JW text beneath it asking if David would like it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Beth_Sarim_1931.jpg/633px-Beth_Sarim_1931.jpg
 
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Ratiocination

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Back in the day, there was an entire subsection for discussing JW beliefs/interpretations/viewpoints. With that assimilated into UT, I haven't seen much conversation to jump in on.

SO... from a real life, actual reasonable JW... does anyone have any civil questions about what we actually believe and/or why?

Keep in mind "I HERD YOU KILL BABIES AND DON'T BELIEEV IN JESUS!" ... is not a question. If it sounds completely dastardly and unreasonable... it's probably not based on reality and therefore isn't a rumor that should be perpetuated.

(Btw, the goal isn't to "proselytize" or "convert" anyone. Only to reduce the hatred out there and get people thinking for themselves rather than buying into propaganda.)
I remember you from 'back in the day', how are you doing? Why did they change this site around, it seems messy now!

Hope you're ok....
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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It's weird that JWs would get anything from Catholicism, since they seem to think it's so wrong in it's doctrine. Why would they copy something they think is wrong?

Anyway, here's an article regarding an expensive house called "Beth Sarim" that one of the early JW leader's (Judge Rutherford) bought to live in himself (for $10 from the JW Organization). He then deeded it to Moses, Abraham, David, etc. should they return to earth to live as humans.
quote from article:
LINK: Beth Sarim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LINK to pic of Beth Sarim with JW text beneath it asking if David would like it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Beth_Sarim_1931.jpg/633px-Beth_Sarim_1931.jpg

Thanks for the very interesting links. Judge Rutherford must have been quite the character in order to get away with such hijinks!
 
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Chrystal-J

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YW bbbbbb. :)
I don't think the cross and crown design/symbol itself is an issue in this situation. Like you noted, different denominations have used it. The crown can be the symbol of the Crown of Life or a king's crown, showing that Jesus is the King of Kings. So, that symbol itself is not a problem. It's more the flip-flop belief system that the JW Organization forces upon it's members as a way to control them. One day they're told to believe one thing (the cross, for example) then are told to discard it (or pretend it was never said--like with the "end of the world in 1975" prediction). The Organization calls these changes "New Light" so to cover themselves.
 
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he-man

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As a JW... Birthdays don't have specifically malicious roots like Halloween and pagan roots like Christmas/Easter... but the only two mentions of birthday celebrations in the bible ended up in some nastiness. Now-a-days birthdays tend to feature people being obligated to spend a bunch of money to encourage the kid to be self-centered all day. It isn't always the case obviously, but we just don't buy into the "obligatory presents" traditions. When I see something my kid would like, I get it. And the next time she's particularly good, I give her a reward.
So do you have a birthday cake and candles?
And yes, we visit with the Jewish side of her family just as much as anyone else. The idea that "JWs are forbidden from ever talking to someone outside of the congregation" is nothing but propaganda.
Strange all of my relatives that are JW's have never visited my house in 40 years. They all speak and are hospitable if I go to their house or meet them on the street but my Dad's parents or siblings have not ever stopped at his house either.

All but one of their children are JW's and they do not visit their own sister.
 
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HWood

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According to Jesus, he never was his own father.

Not only does Jesus himself teach us that the Father is greater than him, but he prays that we should all be in union with the Father just as he is. Unless we assume ourselves to be God, it seems obvious that we should all unify ourselves with God... not that we're literally human forms of God.

According to the WTS charter, Jesus was to be worshiped along with Jehovah.

This is from the 1945 Yearbook quoting from the WTS Charter(bold is mine):

"The purposes of this Society are: To act as the servant of and the legal world-wide governing agency for that body of Christian persons known as Jehovah's Witnesses to preach the gospel of God's kingdom under Christ Jesus unto all nations as a witness to the name, word and supremacy of Almighty Good JEHOVAH; to print and distribute Bibles and to disseminate Bible truths in various languages by means of making and publishing literature containing information and comment explaining Bible truths and prophecy concerning establishment of Jehovah's kingdom under Christ Jesus to authorize and appoint agents, servants, employees, teachers, instructors, evangelists, missionaries and ministers to go forth to all the world publicly and from house to house to preach and teach Bible truths to persons willing to listen by leaving with such persons said literature and by conducting Bible studies thereon to improve men, women and children mentally and morally by Christian missionary work and by charitable and benevolent instruction of the people on the Bible and incidental scientific, historical and literary subjects to establish and maintain private Bible schools and classes for gratuitous instruction of men and women in the Bible, Bible literature and Bible history; to teach, train, prepare and equip men and women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists, preachers, teachers and lecturers to provide and maintain homes, places and buildings for gratuitous housing of such students, lecturers, teachers and minister; to furnish gratuitously to such students, lecturers, teachers, educators and ministers suitable meals and lodging and to prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature and for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for preaching this gospel of the kingdom; and to do any and all other lawful things that its Board of Directors shall deem expedient for the purposes stated."

It was not until 1999 that worship of Jesus was finally removed to simply state "arrange for and hold assemblies for religious worship;"

C.T. Russell, the founder of your religion, promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

"It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2,3

"It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157

"Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. … It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216

"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan. 1 p.15

Rutherford continued this teaching.

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.339

"During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 p.295

"The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation p.151

Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. … Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct. 15 p.313

JWs started out as "bible students" noticing that "the church" was preaching things that weren't in the bible. No, we didn't catch everything instantly. We don't believe that he "was" triune with his Father, and then he "stopped being so when we changed our mind." We believe that the message in the bible makes it right, not that "we say so and we're an authority." The whole purpose of the bible student movement was to put authority to the test and research what the bible really teaches for ourselves.

Remember what you actually teach is that beginning with the Apostles as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, one generation of the slave class fed the next generation.

[w95 5/15 p.16-17]
5 In this regard, the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached stated: “As to just how the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class existed and served down through the centuries after the death of the apostles of the Master Jesus Christ, we do not have a distinct historical picture. Apparently one generation of the ‘slave’ class fed the next succeeding generation thereof.



Holly
 
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he-man

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So do you have a birthday cake and candles?
Strange all of my relatives that are JW's have never visited my house in 40 years. They all speak and are hospitable if I go to their house or meet them on the street but my Dad's parents or siblings have not ever stopped at his house either.

All but one of their children are JW's and they do not visit their own sister.
What? The Disappearing act again?
 
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BigDaddy4

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As a JW... Birthdays don't have specifically malicious roots like Halloween and pagan roots like Christmas/Easter... but the only two mentions of birthday celebrations in the bible ended up in some nastiness. Now-a-days birthdays tend to feature people being obligated to spend a bunch of money to encourage the kid to be self-centered all day. It isn't always the case obviously, but we just don't buy into the "obligatory presents" traditions. When I see something my kid would like, I get it. And the next time she's particularly good, I give her a reward.

And yes, we visit with the Jewish side of her family just as much as anyone else. The idea that "JWs are forbidden from ever talking to someone outside of the congregation" is nothing but propaganda.

Per the bolded, can you please cite what you are referencing in the Bible?

Thanks
 
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Chrystal-J

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Per the bolded, can you please cite what you are referencing in the Bible?

Thanks

In terms of birthday parties that "went wrong", the JWs sometimes refer to Matthew 14 where Herod’s birthday resulted in the beheading of John the Baptist. But, the JWs seem to over-look other things that "go wrong" in the bible and continue to practice them. (Like marriage--David murdering Bathseba's husband so he could marry her.) Or an even bigger one, where the JWs changed scripture (John 1:1) in the bible after being warned not to in Revelation 22:19.
 
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he-man

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Per the bolded, can you please cite what you are referencing in the Bible?Thanks
Not my bolding...
Strange all of my relatives that are JW's have never visited my house in 40 years. They all speak and are hospitable if I go to their house or meet them on the street but my Dad's parents or siblings have not ever stopped at his house either.

 
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...
Not only does Jesus himself teach us that the Father is greater than him...

Can we look at this "greater", and also discuss in greater detail JESUS [who HE is, etc], GOD, and also discuss the GODHEAD, the 3 persons, FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIIRT?
 
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he-man

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Can we look at this "greater", and also discuss in greater detail JESUS [who HE is, etc], GOD, and also discuss the GODHEAD, the 3 persons, FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIIRT?
Sure....

Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into


Luke 24:36-39 And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.
Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:12-17

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 3012, article: "Trinity":
The term 'trinity' is not a Biblical term, and we are not using biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God,..


Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
 
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Sure....

Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew יהיה to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into


Luke 24:36-39 And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.
Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:12-17

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 3012, article: "Trinity":
The term 'trinity' is not a Biblical term, and we are not using biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God,..


Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Hello,

The Bible does use the term "GODHEAD".

Of course there is only one God, and this God of scripture is described, as being "one" [unity] consisting of three co-eternal persons. Therefore none before and none after GOD...

John 1:1-3; etc. Christ Jesus was always with the Father...

John 13:12-17, indeed is true, for it allows Chirst Jesus to be Equal to the Father in Nature, that is to say, God.

The other passages [OT] are Christ Jesus speaking, for before Abraham was, Christ Jesus says, "I AM"... and He is the YHWH/YHVH of the OT.

Luke is contextually speaking of the Resurrection and the body of it, for CHRIST JESUS, God manifest in the flesh, is forever a glorified man, the head of all men, the Second Adam. The Father gave the Son... John 3:16

...

Question: Who is the Husband?

For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Ephesians 5:23

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2

And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. Matthew 9:15

etc...

Jesus Christ is the Husband, the Bridegroom... God the Son, the scriptures cannot be broken...

Question:
Who is the Covenant maker?:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: - Jeremiah 31:31

(see also Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 36:27; Hebrews 8:8,10, 10:16)

It was Jesus who made that Covenant and confirmed it by His own promise and blood (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24).


Consider:

The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah. - Psalms 46:7

The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah. - Psalms 46:11

"...shall call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

"...call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." - Matthew 1:23


Question: Who is with us?

And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I [am] the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I [am] with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake. Genesis 26:24

And, behold, I [am] with thee, and will keep thee in all [places] whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done [that] which I have spoken to thee of. Genesis 28:15

And the LORD said unto Jacob, Return unto the land of thy fathers, and to thy kindred; and I will be with thee Genesis 31:3

I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up [again]: and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes. Genesis 46:4

And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this [shall be] a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. Exodus 3:12

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. Deuteronomy 31:6

There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, [so] I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. Joshua 1:5

...

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:20

For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. Acts 18:10

Notice the context that Paul quotes from the OT and to whom he directly equates it with...

[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for
he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5

So that we may boldly say, The Lord [is] my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. Hebrews 13:6

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8
 
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Question: Who Is The Shepherd?

For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Psalms 95:7

Shall we not notice that? "the people [sheep] of HIS pasture..." Who is the Good Shepherd?

[[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want. Psalms 23:1

[[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest [between] the cherubims, shine forth. Psalms 80:1

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young. Isaiah 40:11

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. Ezekiel 34:11

As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. Ezekiel 34:12

And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things. Mark 6:34

But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. John 10:2

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:11

I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. John 10:14

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. John 10:16


Which "good shepherd" gave "HIS life for the sheep"? To whom does the "little flock" belong then?

[please continue reading the whole context of Psalms 95...]

Who saw us like "sheep without a shepherd" [1 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 18:16] and came to "to seek and to save that which was lost" [Luke 19:10]

When scripture hath said,

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

Who is it that loveth thee "with an everlasting love"? Who is it that with "lovingkindness" has "drawn thee"?

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. Isaiah 45:22

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. John 12:32


Think about what is going to the "uttermost parts of the earth" and "all the ends of the earth" even now...

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. Matthew 26:31

And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. Mark 14:27

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Hebrews 13:20

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Peter 5:4

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:15


Who is it that is coming to gather all of His Sheep from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of heaven and shall separate the sheep from the goats?

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:32

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:33

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13:27


We are the sheep of His pasture... and we know His voice... He also calleth those of His sheep to "come out of her, my people"... The Shepherd calls you... do you belong to Him?

"seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us" [Acts 17:27;p], for He hath said, "lo, I am with you alway" [Matthew 28:20;p]]

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Isaiah 42:5

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: John 20:22

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27
[see again Psalms 95, for whose voice?]

If you want to know more of the Truth, and you want to heed the call of Jehovah God, know that it is Jesus Christ that calleth thee... He is the Way, The Truth and the Life...
 
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he-man

he-man
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Hello, The Bible does use the term "GODHEAD".
answer: NO θεοτητος = deity, divine quality, godlike excellence

Latin translates it as divinitas, which is the divine quality of the nature of God.


Col 2:9 For in him the fullness of divine quality doth tabernacle in a fleshly manner,
Of course there is only one God, and this God of scripture is described, as being "one" [unity] consisting of three co-eternal persons. Therefore none before and none after GOD...
John 1:1-3; etc. Christ Jesus was always with the Father...
Joh 1:14 And the word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten from the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 13:12-17, indeed is true, for it allows Chirst Jesus to be Equal to the Father in Nature, that is to say, God.
:confused: Teacher equals God:confused: neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.

Joh 13:13
You call me teacher and lord: and you say well; for I am.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The slave is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.
Luke is contextually speaking of the Resurrection and the body of it, for CHRIST JESUS, God manifest in the flesh, is forever a glorified man, the head of all men, the Second Adam. The Father gave the Son... John 3:16
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
son of man, that thou visitest him?

Heb 2:7
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Heb 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 
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Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is a beginning of the firstborn from the dead; that among all he might be first. ...

Let us deal with one scripture at a time then... Colossians... and I would ask that you please reconsider all that went before, for the texts presented must be fully addressed.

Let us look at the “first born” texts:

For instance "first born", using the texts themselves, comparing scripture with scripture:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15

"Firstborn", what does this mean when it refers to JESUS in Colossians 1:15? Well, we must consider other texts [and immediate context] to determine that answer for the Bible is "precept upon precept, line upon line".

Exodus 4:22, Israel is called "firstborn", yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26]. We can also know by scripture that JESUS is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15].

Psalms 89:27, David is called "firstborn", yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest [8th son] of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 that "firstborn" is related to pre-eminence "higher than the kings of the earth". David was a type of CHRIST. Obviously the term "firstborn" in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather "pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief".

Jeremiah 31:9, Ephraim is called "firstborn", yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal "firstborn" of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52].

1 Chronicles 26:10
really shows this usage clearly: "Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for [though] he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief; )" 1 Chronicles 26:10

Even in Job 18:12-13 ["firstborn of death"] and in Isaiah 14:30 ["firstborn of the poor"], the term "firstborn" in these instances is being used in a figurative sense. Like "disease and decay" or "chiefest of the poor", the most poorest of them.

The Greek word for "first created" is "Protoktioti", but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully the "chosen" headship connotation word instead: "Prototokos" ["Firstborn"].

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant "firstborn" in the sense of "headship and pre-eminence of promise" or "first created". We go to Colossians 1:18:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence." Colosians 1:18

"head of the body...who is the beginning...have the preeminence."; Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line.

After this, how can any say that JESUS is created using that "firstborn" text? None who are honest with the Scriptures themselves.
 
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