James's "Faith Without Works"

[Revelation 22:10-12]

James mentions two types of faith. He mentions a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless or barren faith that doesn’t produce works which is not a saving faith. Notice verse 14

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Can that faith save him? A dead and useless faith has no love for others and is self serving. That’s why it’s not a saving faith.

In context, you can see with His help that James is not talking about saving faith, but faith in His Providence when he goes on to explain what he was talking about.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

If a church verbalized that faith to the poor without leading by example for them to see that faith, can that church's faith in His Providence "profit" the poor or even save the poor? No. Because in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in His providence is dead; therefore how can that faith in His Providence save the poor when it does not profit the poor seeing how the church's faith in His Providence is dead?

That church's faith in His Providence is dead in the eyes of the poor and so it will not profit the poor in applying that faith that God will provide for them to save the poor from starvation and the elements.

 

[Revelation 22:10-12]

But Abraham did works he just hadn’t done them yet. His works were a result of his faith. Had he not done any works that to would’ve been a result of his lack of faith.

There are 2 greatest commandments in the O.T. and that is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, souls, and strength and love others as yourself. In the New Testament, the 2 greatest commandments is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love others see verse 23 of 1 John 3:22-24

Since by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for all things; that we are saved simply by believing in Him and that He is our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him, is how and why we can love others by.

So when I look at Abraham, I see that God is pleased by him because Abraham believed God. That was why and how he was righteous and upon that belief is why God helped him to follow Him.

So believers are not to look at the works they are to do; but to Jesus Christ to lead them in what He wants them to do at the time He wants them to do it as well as to help them to do it.

Trust is the basis for all relationships. Since Abraham was before the law of Moses, we can see why trust is the core for living that relationship with God in the O.T. as well as in the N.T. , but in the N.T. we can know God even more by personally through Jesus Christ and His words.

 

[Revelation 22:10-12]

Yes, because they say the same thing. We can have faith but it will be a dead, useless faith without love, a faith that even the can demons have. If we think we have a faith that is pleasing to God but do not have love then we'll be wrong. Because it's our love that He's after. Faith is only the doorstep, the beginning, to becoming just in God's eyes.

Love is not a side-benefit of faith nor is it optional. It's the very heart of the gospel, the reason Jesus came and the very nature God wishes to instill in us. Love, alone, justifies man; it's what his justice/holiness/righteousness consists of. It's the most important of the three virtues listed in 1 Cor 13: faith, hope, and love, as it includes and encompasses the other two. So that, again, the church can rightly teach, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Sinners can be found to love others as themselves; following the golden rule, but that will not justify them. No act of love by a sinner can justify them when Christ is not in them yet. Helping a little old lady across the street while killing an enemy asking for it, is not going to justify any sinner.

We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Once saved in that manner can believers have hope in Christ to love even their enemies by even if it is to avoid them in living peaceably with all men as it lieth possible with us.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I have heard one time that a believer had a good friend that he had thought he was a Christian, but he wasn't a believer. So I don't believe we should rest on someone loving others as a sure sign they are saved. The good fight is keeping the faith; loving others is how they will know we are abiding in Him.

 

[fhansen]

Sinners can be found to love others as themselves; following the golden rule, but that will not justify them. No act of love by a sinner can justify them when Christ is not in them yet. Helping a little old lady across the street while killing an enemy asking for it, is not going to justify any sinner.

We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Once saved in that manner can believers have hope in Christ to love even their enemies by even if it is to avoid them in living peaceably with all men as it lieth possible with us.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I have heard one time that a believer had a good friend that he had thought he was a Christian, but he wasn't a believer. So I don't believe we should rest on someone loving others as a sure sign they are saved. The good fight is keeping the faith; loving others is how they will know we are abiding in Him.

Alright, but as I mentioned before, the kind of love I'm talking about is available only via communion with God. And this is consistent with Jeremiah's New Covenant prophecy. Jer 31 tells us that God will do what we cannot; essentially that He'll justify us, placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. This law is based on love and is only authentically fulfilled or obeyed by love. Jeremiah also tells us that we'll all know Him, from the least to the greatest, without need for anyone to tell his neighbor about God. This personal knowledge is the object of faith, and the communion that is established by it, all a gift of grace.

My point is still that man is justified via faith, but the justice or righteousness, itself, is most fully defined and constituted by love. And, as per the Parable of the Talents we'll be judged on what we've done with what we've been given-with more demanded from those who've been given more, a principle outlined in Luke 12:48

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you think, for instance, that Peter didn't consider himself following Jesus when he didn't intend to carry the gospel to non-Jews?

I wasn’t aware that Peter that ever considered such a thing. Can you show an example of this?

“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[timothyu]

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;

There were 12 nations in the House of Israel, the Jews being only but one

 

[Revelation 22:10-12]

Alright, but as I mentioned before, the kind of love I'm talking about is available only via communion with God. And this is consistent with Jeremiah's New Covenant prophecy. Jer 31 tells us that God will do what we cannot; essentially that He'll justify us, placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. This law is based on love and is only authentically fulfilled or obeyed by love. Jeremiah also tells us that we'll all know Him, from the least to the greatest, without need for anyone to tell his neighbor about God. This personal knowledge is the object of faith, and the communion that is established by it, all a gift of grace.

My point is still that man is justified via faith, but the justice or righteousness, itself, is most fully defined and constituted by love. And, as per the Parable of the Talents we'll be judged on what we've done with what we've been given-with more demanded from those who've been given more, a principle outlined in Luke 12:48

My point is , if any Christian out there reading this because they are going through fiery trial whereby the devil has a grip on their anger as they hate and have malice in their heart towards others, they can take comfort that not only are they still saved, but they can call on Jesus for the help and love they need to love their enemies.

I just don't want a brother or sister to take what you had said to judge themselves for when they are not having His love in them in their time of life as proof that they were not saved when they are. It is because they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ without works and that Jesus Christ is in them by faith is why they can call on Jesus for help and the love they need to love others by, even their enemies.

 

[mark kennedy]

My point is , if any Christian out there reading this because they are going through fiery trial whereby the devil has a grip on their anger as they hate and have malice in their heart towards others, they can take comfort that not only are they still saved, but they can call on Jesus for the help and love they need to love their enemies.

I just don't want a brother or sister to take what you had said to judge themselves for when they are not having His love in them in their time of life as proof that they were not saved when they are. It is because they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ without works and that Jesus Christ is in them by faith is why they can call on Jesus for help and the love they need to love others by, even their enemies.

That's all true, remember James is talking to people who have been Christians for a while. They should have known better. They were mistreating the poor but that's the way of the world and God expects a miracle, for the miracle that was bestowed on the faithful. It need not be dramatic but when you receive mercy, you have an obligation to be merciful. It's not some stoic admonition to do something heroic but to act in simple compassion, the people he was writing to had forgotten that lesson. Can you imagine what Abraham must have gone through, preparing a fire that would consume his son after waiting so long for the promise to be fulfilled. It's an unpleasant truth, we are called to sacrifice, that one shakes me to my core. He had a knife and would have ended his son and burned him to ashes. Why is puzzling but the angel stopped him because it was then obvious he feared God, willing to sacrifice even the child of promise. It starts to make sense when God spared not his own son on our behalf. Jesus prayed, is there any other way, and sweat blood over it, he was there for hours.

All James was asking them to do was to follow the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself. In comparison he wasn't asking them that much. But don't you think it cost them something? I mean it's just something to think about, imagine how that society thought of treating slaves and the poor as equals, let alone as being superior. Just something to think about.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sorry, but that some books of the Bible were introduced later does not mean we cannot get doctrine from them. Also, which what authority do you say some books have more authority than others?

My argument isn't that we can't rely on the antilegomena, my argument is that one can't use the antilegomena to reject what is written in the homolegoumena.

The historic witness of the Church, that the homolegoumena were universally accepted nearly from the beginning, and the antilegomena were contested. While, for the most part, the New Testament today is the same everywhere (with the exception of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, whose canonical list is rather complicated) is certainly good. Let's also understand that there has never been a definitive statement on the subject of the Canon. The closest we have is the ruling of the Council of Trent in the 16th century, but this ruling is only authoritative in Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant traditions likewise have defined their Canon in their own confessional and doctrinal statements and documents.

In Lutheranism, however, we've never defined the Canon. Our Confessions don't provide a definitive position on the Canon, which is why there is no "official" Lutheran position on the status of the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. So, from a technical standpoint, the Canon is technically "open" in Lutheranism; not in the sense that new works could be included, but in the sense that the old and ancient debates and discussions on certain books (e.g. the Deuterocanonicals) is still ongoing. We do not accept the ruling of Trent as authoritative (for obvious reasons), neither do we accept the doctrinal statements and documents of non-Lutheran traditions binding and authoritative (for obvious reasons).

Do I accept the Epistle of St. James as Scripture? Yes. What I don't accept is that we can use the Epistle of St. James to overturn, reject, and deny the consistent biblical witness that Justification is by grace alone through faith, and not by works. As such any use of James for that purpose is rejected.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

There were 12 nations in the House of Israel, the Jews being only but one

The term "Jew" while originating from Yehudim, i.e. those from the Tribe of Judah; came to encompass all from the southern Kingdom of Judah. And still later came to ultimately include all who practiced the Jewish religion, regardless of tribal ancestry; converts to Judaism are likewise still Jews. Samaritans were not (and still aren't) considered Jews because they practice a different form of Israelite religion: Samaritanism. St. Paul, who was from the Tribe of Benjamin, was a Jew. Likewise, Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) claim ancestry from the Tribe of Dan, are also Jews. Other ancient Jewish communities who claim descent from other tribes are likewise Jews. And anyone who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, regardless of their ancestry. Which is why there are Japanese Jews, Chinese Jews, Malagasy Jews, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Not David]

My argument isn't that we can't rely on the antilegomena, my argument is that one can't use the antilegomena to reject what is written in the homolegoumena.

The historic witness of the Church, that the homolegoumena were universally accepted nearly from the beginning, and the antilegomena were contested. While, for the most part, the New Testament today is the same everywhere (with the exception of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, whose canonical list is rather complicated) is certainly good. Let's also understand that there has never been a definitive statement on the subject of the Canon. The closest we have is the ruling of the Council of Trent in the 16th century, but this ruling is only authoritative in Roman Catholicism. Most Protestant traditions likewise have defined their Canon in their own confessional and doctrinal statements and documents.

In Lutheranism, however, we've never defined the Canon. Our Confessions don't provide a definitive position on the Canon, which is why there is no "official" Lutheran position on the status of the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. So, from a technical standpoint, the Canon is technically "open" in Lutheranism; not in the sense that new works could be included, but in the sense that the old and ancient debates and discussions on certain books (e.g. the Deuterocanonicals) is still ongoing. We do not accept the ruling of Trent as authoritative (for obvious reasons), neither do we accept the doctrinal statements and documents of non-Lutheran traditions binding and authoritative (for obvious reasons).

Do I accept the Epistle of St. James as Scripture? Yes. What I don't accept is that we can use the Epistle of St. James to overturn, reject, and deny the consistent biblical witness that Justification is by grace alone through faith, and not by works. As such any use of James for that purpose is rejected.

-CryptoLutheran

I still don't see how books being confirmed later on denies its ability to drawn doctrine from it. Also, you didn't present any authoritarian argument from either Early Church or even Lutheran documents to justify your claim.

James was rejected as authority by Luther because it went against his theology based on a faulty understanding of Romans.

 

[Der Alte]

1.
Strongs Concordance: 1067. Gehenna
Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.
Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment -- hell.
Next we’ll look at the other words that when defined/translated as hell mean the grave.
Strongs concordance: Hades 86.
The abode of Departed souls.
Hades, the unseen world.
grave, hell.
From a (as negative particle) and eido; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls -- grave, hell.
Next we take it back to the original Hebrew word, Sheol.
Strongs Concordance: Sheol 7585.
Underworld. Place to which people descend at death.
Or shol {sheh-ole'}; from sha'al; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.
The difference between samson(died in sin) and abraham(died in righteousness) is that one went to paradise(abode of righteous souls in sheol) and the other went to prison(abode of damned souls in sheol). Both of them are in hell/the grave/Hades/Sheol/and the definition of Gehenna that is hell/the grave. But they are each a different part of Sheol, as there are different parts to the Lower parts of the Earth
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise- Paradeisos 3857
Thayer’s greek lexicon
3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43
The place in Sheol where the Fallen angels were sent is also different from prison and Paradise.
5020. tartaroó
cast into hell.
From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment -- cast down to hell.
So tartarus is part of hell/the grave as well.
We see that it says all the disobedient souls in Prison, even the souls that died before the Flood, were preached to. He then uses this reference to all the souls in Prison/hell to show how eight only were saved by water but now we are all saved by Christ and born again in baptism.
Ephesians 4:9-10
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Noah and his family did indeed die, it is written. They now sleep in the grave as all the dead do. Christ went and preached to the Spirits in Prison when he died it written.
Strongs 5438 Phulake
cage, hold, imprisonment, ward
From phulasso; a guarding or (concretely, guard), the act, the person; figuratively, the place, the condition, or (specially), the time (as a division of day or night), literally or figuratively -- cage, hold, (im-)prison(-ment), ward, watch.

Does not really address or refute anything I posted.Your proof text, 1 Pet 3:18-21, does not say that Noah and his family were saved after they died. "eight souls were saved by water." vs.
Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon and Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors/omissions. You might try reading your proof text instead of bits and pieces to make it fit your assumptions/presumptions.

1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

What is the time period mentioned in this passage. Is it after death? No! "In the days of Noah, when the ark was being built" vs. 20
How many were saved? Only eight. vs. 20
Where does this passage speak of anyone who was dead being preached to or being saved? It doesn't.
And again I remind you Jesus announced His ministry in Luk 4:18-19

Luke 4:18-19
(18) "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
(19) to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."​

.....Nowhere in the Bible does is say that Jesus went to hell/gehenna/hades/sheol to set dead sinners free. Jesus' ministry included the poor, prisoners, blind, oppressed. It says nothing about unrepentant sinners after death. Jesus said those in the place of torment cannot come out.

Luke 16:25-26
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

What was the rich man's sin? Being rich? No! Lazarus did not even get the crumbs from the rich man's table.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

​

 

[mark kennedy]

Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon and Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors/omissions

By whom? I'd like to see your source material if it's not too much trouble.

 

[Revelation 22:10-12]

That's all true, remember James is talking to people who have been Christians for a while. They should have known better. They were mistreating the poor but that's the way of the world and God expects a miracle, for the miracle that was bestowed on the faithful. It need not be dramatic but when you receive mercy, you have an obligation to be merciful. It's not some stoic admonition to do something heroic but to act in simple compassion, the people he was writing to had forgotten that lesson. Can you imagine what Abraham must have gone through, preparing a fire that would consume his son after waiting so long for the promise to be fulfilled. It's an unpleasant truth, we are called to sacrifice, that one shakes me to my core. He had a knife and would have ended his son and burned him to ashes. Why is puzzling but the angel stopped him because it was then obvious he feared God, willing to sacrifice even the child of promise. It starts to make sense when God spared not his own son on our behalf. Jesus prayed, is there any other way, and sweat blood over it, he was there for hours.

All James was asking them to do was to follow the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself. In comparison he wasn't asking them that much. But don't you think it cost them something? I mean it's just something to think about, imagine how that society thought of treating slaves and the poor as equals, let alone as being superior. Just something to think about.

Grace and peace,
Mark

In 2 Corinthians 9:1-15 has Paul speaking of the zeal of giving of the Corinthians whereby the order Paul has set prior in 1 Corinthians 16 was for all churches to set aside from the bounty collected a portion for the support of the saints in the ministry so that there would be no special collection for that and thus avoiding the image of covetousness.

He went on to remind them that the giving is between the giver and God and not for the church's knowledge of whom is giving or not; hence tithing has been ceased as a practice because God's unspeakable gift mentioned in 2 Corinthians 9:15 is that God will always provide for what He wants the church to run on.

So by giving to the poor to meet the immediate needs of the poor, specifically those poor that are about to perish from starvation or from the elements, the church will always have left over just what God has provided for it to run on in ministering to others.

So in one respect, there is no sacrifice when a church runs on faith that God has already provided for the church which also has to include the immediate needs of the poor after church service.

Most churches have members tithes and make pledges of giving, although the church will never know the unspeakable gift of God providing for the churches, for a pastor to preach from the pulpit that God will provide for them while the church pays by the tithes and pledges of giving his salary, expense, and even a retirement plan or pension, the poor would have a hard time seeing that pastor's faith.

And yet the givers want the church to keep a records for their tax deductions for charitable giving; and although it is not a sin for believers to have a record of their giving for tax deductions, but like Jesus says, they did it before men to be seen by men and they already had their rewards.

Matthew 6:1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

It goes back to giving anonymously as a cheerful giver that the church seems to have fallen out of practice of, so as to be relying on God to raise up cheerful givers. They look to the congregation to provide by obeying to tithe and to keep their pledges of giving, and although their faith in God to provide for the church is dead, they are still saved.

I remember one time my former church was going to use the legacies account designated for the building account to remodel the old sanctuary into better Sunday school rooms by putting it in interest bearing account, and I heard the word Ichabod. I looked it up and it meant, "The glory of the Lord has left". As time went by, as they drew interests over the years, they had to draw from that account to pay because giving has dropped in the church. Years went by even further until they never had the amount they needed to remodel the old sanctuary but used it for putting in an elevator for old and handicap people to go from the main floor of the old sanctuary where it meets the new sanctuary second balcony level to the main floor of the new sanctuary and then to the basement here the kitchen is for receptions and recreation for youth group. That legacy account designated for that new building fund never was used for that purpose even though those that had passed away designated it for that.

Looking back now, I understand why I heard that as it must have been from the Lord as Ichabod was Him telling me that the glory of the Lord providing for the church has left. I don't know if my former church will ever get back to knowing God's unspeakable gift, but they still tithe and give pledges of giving.

They are still saved by the way, but well... there are certain areas in all churches as in His disciples that needs pruning for growth to bear more fruit as Jesus said in John 15:1-2

I think the danger is resting in our laurels that we know all that we need to know and yet we don't since we are not perfect yet and we will not be until He brings us Home. With all the apostasy going about in these latter days and seeing how much the Lord had pulled me out of, I could doubt myself as abiding in Him as I should but then He reminds me to trust in Him to perfect that which concerns me.

I believe the only sacrifice we are to have is being ready to leave our treasures and possessions down here with our loved ones when the Bridegroom comes and I rely on the Lord to help me with that too.

See Luke 14:15-33 for more detail about the cost of discipleship is leaving our life behind for the King's Supper above. Even then, that is not a sacrifice, thanks to Jesus Christ; those who fear it might be a snare can pray for His help to escape the snares of the cares of this life today Luke 21:33-36

 

[Der Alte]

By whom? I'd like to see your source material if it's not too much trouble.

No problem. I never say anything i can't back up.
* Online Bible FAQ
Q:The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
Frequently Asked Questions - Online Bible Then click “The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong’s concordance.”
* Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/e...ervan.9780310233435&QueryStringSite=Zondervan

Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition

 

[timothyu]

St. Paul, who was from the Tribe of Benjamin, was a Jew. Likewise, Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) claim ancestry from the Tribe of Dan, are also Jews. Other ancient Jewish communities who claim descent from other tribes are likewise Jews. And anyone who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, regardless of their ancestry. Which is why there are Japanese Jews, Chinese Jews, Malagasy Jews, etc.

Right.. converted like Paul did from being a Benjamite becoming a proselyte. But there were still 12 distinct nations in the House of Israel. Judah comprised of two nations only Jews and the lesser Benjamites. All nations meant all 12 tribes

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Does not really address or refute anything I posted.Your proof text, 1 Pet 3:18-21, does not say that Noah and his family were saved after they died. "eight souls were saved by water." vs.
Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon and Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors/omissions. You might try reading your proof text instead of bits and pieces to make it fit your assumptions/presumptions.

1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

What is the time period mentioned in this passage. Is it after death? No! "In the days of Noah, when the ark was being built" vs. 20
How many were saved? Only eight. vs. 20
Where does this passage speak of anyone who was dead being preached to or being saved? It doesn't.
And again I remind you Jesus announced His ministry in Luk 4:18-19

Luke 4:18-19
(18) "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
(19) to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."​

.....Nowhere in the Bible does is say that Jesus went to hell/gehenna/hades/sheol to set dead sinners free. Jesus' ministry included the poor, prisoners, blind, oppressed. It says nothing about unrepentant sinners after death. Jesus said those in the place of torment cannot come out.

Luke 16:25-26
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

What was the rich man's sin? Being rich? No! Lazarus did not even get the crumbs from the rich man's table.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

​

1. I never said it did brother. The passage said they were saved from the flood.
2. The time period is set after Christ's death, now unless you believe he died more than once it is clear when this is taking place. It is also clear it is taking place in the Spirit and is speaking of preaching to spirits in prison/the grave.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
3. You can Believe what you want brother, the strongs is reliable.
4. His ministry while alive was for those who were alive in the flesh. When he died he preached to all the souls who never had a chance at salvation in their lifetime. He gave each of them a chance to accept him. That is what is stated in 1 Peter 3 when he says after he died in the flesh he was quickened in the spirit and preached to the Spirits in Prison.
5. Yes while they are in torment they cannot come out, what is being spoken of in that Parable is just a parable about the future and not speaking of the current state of the dead. As Abraham had not ascended into Heaven then or now.
6. And? How does this affect the irrefutable fact that after Christ died in the flesh he was quickened in the Spirit and went down into the Lower parts of the Earth to preach to the Spirits in Prison and in paradise?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Right.. converted like Paul did from being a Benjamite becoming a proselyte. But there were still 12 distinct nations in the House of Israel. Judah comprised of two nations only Jews and the lesser Benjamites. All nations meant all 12 tribes

Paul didn't convert. Paul was born a Jew to Jewish parents. Paul was never a proselyte, only Gentiles can become proselytes.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

Paul didn't convert. Paul was born a Jew to Jewish parents. Paul was never a proselyte, only Gentiles can become proselytes.

Anyone not jewish including in the House of Israel, was considered a gentile.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Anyone not jewish including in the House of Israel, was considered a gentile.

That's simply false. The English "gentile" comes from the Latin gentilis "family", "nation", "clan" and is a translation of the Hebrew goyim ("those of the nations"). The goyim referred to all non-Israelites--the Egyptians, Persians, Assyrians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans, whateverhave you.

So, no, you are wrong and really couldn't be more wrong.

-CryptoLutheran