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Featured James's "Faith Without Works"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Revelation 22:10-12, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    You tell me that Jesus preached to the spirits in Hades and then you tell me they are sleeping.
     
  2. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Lord has the Ability to wake them. Just as he has the Ability to put them back to sleep.

    Nothing is beyond the Power of the Lord. Also it is not me telling you this from my own knowledge, everything I have said comes directly from the word of God with nothing added.
     
  3. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I can do anything I want and call it that.
     
  4. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    Ah, it
    The Bible does not say anything about God "waking people" or "putting them asleep".
    Even Paul says that he will see God when he dies.

    The Intercession of the Saints has more historical and biblical support than the heresy of "soul sleeping".
     
  5. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    I think your correct.

    The letter of James is difficult to understand. The whole letter has to be read very carefully otherwise you end up in conflict with Paul.

    I think James sums up in a complex way that we are justified by faith.

    James 2:22
    You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

    Christian works (fruit of the Holy Spirit) actually increase one's faith in Jesus Christ. A Christian life spent in pure Christian works perfect one's faith.
     
  6. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    No
     
  7. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    As you said... "Does it say it is a parable?"
     
  8. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    So what authority do you have to say it is a parable or not?
     
  9. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Waking them up
    Do you think the Lord has power to raise the body only and not the spirit/soul? Can he awaken flesh but not spirit? We are told the Lord has power to awaken the body as well as the spirit/soul.
    The Bodies awoken from sleep.
    John 11:
    These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    Matt 27:52
    52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    The souls awoken from sleep.
    Matt 17:
    3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    Revelation 6:9
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    Daniel 12:2
    2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shameand everlasting contempt.


    Putting them Back to sleep
    Revelation 6:11
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    The Lord has already awoken men out of sleep in the spirit/soul and in the body and it is said that he will also put souls back to sleep, he has both awoken those in the grave/hell/hades/sheol and put them back to sleep as well. He has power to do both.


    And biblical support for the Soul sleeping is written all throughout the bible.
    Man is said to have a soul that remains and sleeps after death(Matt 10:28; Revelation 6:9; Daniel 12:2; Acts 2:27-31,1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4 ,Psalm 16:10 ,Acts 2:27) his thoughts cease, and he has no more part in anything done under the sun. (Psalm 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Psalms 6:5). When a man dies his soul/spirit lives on and sleeps in the grave(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, 1 Kings 2:10, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, John 5:28-29, Job 7:21, Job 14:10, Daniel 12:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:13). Our souls are an essence that is separate from the body and lives on after death, after the breath of life is given up(1 Sam 28:11-20, 1 Peter 3:18-20, Revelation 6:9-11) it lives on in a state of sleep in the grave/Sheol/hell/Hades.

    ___________________________________________________________________________
    Which verse/chapter are you referring to brother? Is it one of these? 2 Cor 5 or Philippians 1? If so here is the answer. If not I look forward to hearing which passage/verse/ or chapter you are referring to.

    With the breath of life we become a living soul(Genesis 2:7) clothed in the tabernacle of Flesh(2 Cor 5:1,4). When we die our mortality/earthly tabernacle is put off(2 Cor 5:4) swallowed up in death. So while we are at home in the flesh(alive bodily) we are absent from the Lord(2 Cor 5:5-6) but after death in the flesh we are spiritual beings/living souls without bodies of flesh( 1 Cor 15:44-46) awaiting resurrection and life with Christ(2 Cor 5:6,8,9; 2 Cor 5:10).

    While we are alive we are not present with God(since we are in the flesh) but when we die and become free of the earthly tabernacle, then the day of resurrection is the only thing that awaits us. We will not be with the Lord(In heaven) while in the flesh(1 Cor 15:50; 2 Cor 5:5-6) but in the spirit(1 Cor 15:42-44; 2 Cor 5:6, 8). This is the meaning Paul was speaking to.

    When we die the Lord is given back the breath of life and the earthly tabernacle(our bodies of Flesh) die. We each within ourselves have our own individual spirit(Romans 8:16,23) that is different from the Lord’s breath and the Lord’s spirit.

    Paul doesn't say it is at the time of our death that we come to dwell with Christ but at the resurrection. Paul says that when we die we sleep in the grave awaiting the first or second resurrection. The soul/spirit which is contained within our earthly tabernacle(body of flesh) sleeps when the breath of life is given up as it is no longer contained in a living body of flesh(earthly tabernacle) only when it is awakened by the Lord do we regain our thoughts/memories and our ability to feel.

    1. Yes Paul says that he desires to out the tabernacle of Flesh and dwell with the Lord, he knows flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and that when he dies he will be a spirit and will be resurrected in that form. Not in the tabernacle of Flesh. He says as much here and in other chapters/books.


    2. Philippians 1 speaks of Paul's desire to be with Christ after death since he knows that only in the resurrection at Christ’s coming can a person dwell with the Lord.

    1 thess 4:16-17
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Yes Paul speaks of dying and being with Christ but when paired with the rest of his writings we see he means in the Resurrection.

    But looking at it the way you are it contradicts the rest of Paul's writings on the subject of Resurrection and when we come to dwell with Christ, it also contradicts peter, Christ, and the Apocalypse of John. So it is apparent when looking at the full picture that Paul is referring to either the Resurrection for the time he would be with Christ.


    22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

    He desires to depart and die so that he can live again with Christ, when we pair this with what he said here
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    We see that Paul knows/believes that a person does not dwell with the Lord until they are resurrected at Christ's coming
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
  10. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    Sleep means dead, you just try to argue a fallacy.
    You know, I'm tired. So I will just ignore you.
     
  11. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    I only say what scripture says brother. You can ignore what the word says but it doesn't make it any less true.

    May God bless and guide you to the truth and light of his word brother.
     
  12. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    The same as you
     
  13. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Paul did a lot of works... A lot of Christians misinterpret Paul's teachings about "couch potato faith" when Paul's actions contradict their interpretations.

    I've discussed this in my other thread that many Christians misinterpret Paul's teachings and is the biggest problem in our religion today. Many have gone astray to false interpretations and they can't let go of it, have been deceived.
     
  14. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    There are works and there are works and there are works.

    In Romans, Paul lays out several different arguments in what was then the usual fashion--probably the very debates he had against Judiazers in the Hellenist synagogues.

    As such, Paul explicitly defines his significant terms. He specifically defines what he means by "work" as he is using it in this argument as:

    Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

    He's talking about actions people take that create obligations. He's looking at the quotation: "The worker is worth his wages."

    "Works," as Paul is using it specifically for his argument in Romans, are actions taken by people with the expectation of obligating God to pay them eternal life.

    That particular definition of "works" can't be used outside or without the context of Paul's argument. Paul himself doesn't even use "works" by that definition outside this argument.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I don’t understand what you mean friend.
     
  16. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Do you think, for instance, that Peter didn't consider himself following Jesus when he didn't intend to carry the gospel to non-Jews?
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, because they say the same thing. We can have faith but it will be a dead, useless faith without love, a faith that even the can demons have. If we think we have a faith that is pleasing to God but do not have love then we'll be wrong. Because it's our love that He's after. Faith is only the doorstep, the beginning, to becoming just in God's eyes.

    Love is not a side-benefit of faith nor is it optional. It's the very heart of the gospel, the reason Jesus came and the very nature God wishes to instill in us. Love, alone, justifies man; it's what his justice/holiness/righteousness consists of. It's the most important of the three virtues listed in 1 Cor 13: faith, hope, and love, as it includes and encompasses the other two. So that, again, the church can rightly teach, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <SD>Christ went to the grave that day to preach to those in Paradise(the Abode of the pious souls in the grave/hell/Hades/Sheol) and to preach to those in Prison(abode of the damned souls in the Grave). That is why we are told he did not first ascend but first descended into the lower parts of the Earth.
    1 Peter 3:18-20
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water.<SD>

    Neither the grave, gehenna nor hades are ever called prison and prison is never called grave, gehenna or hades in the Bible.
    .....Note vss. 19-20 "
    he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..to those who were disobedient long ago...in the days of Noah .. .only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water." Noah and his family were not dead, in gehenna, sheol etc. when they were saved, they were alive.
    .....Jesus stated his earthly ministry in Luk 4. quoting Isaiah 61:1-2.

    Luke 4:18-19
    (18) "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
    (19) to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
    Note preaching to the dead in hell/hades etc. was not part of Jesus' ministry
    αἰχμαλωτός/aixmalotos, the word translated "prisoners" literally means "prisoners of war."

     
  19. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1.

    Strongs Concordance: 1067. Gehenna
    Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.
    Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment -- hell.

    Next we’ll look at the other words that when defined/translated as hell mean the grave.
    Strongs concordance: Hades 86.
    The abode of Departed souls.
    Hades, the unseen world.
    grave, hell.
    From a (as negative particle) and eido; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls -- grave, hell.

    Next we take it back to the original Hebrew word, Sheol.

    Strongs Concordance: Sheol 7585.
    Underworld. Place to which people descend at death.

    Or shol {sheh-ole'}; from sha'al; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.


    The difference between samson(died in sin) and abraham(died in righteousness) is that one went to paradise(abode of righteous souls in sheol) and the other went to prison(abode of damned souls in sheol). Both of them are in hell/the grave/Hades/Sheol/and the definition of Gehenna that is hell/the grave. But they are each a different part of Sheol, as there are different parts to the Lower parts of the Earth


    1 Peter 3:18-19
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Luke 23:43
    43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

    Paradise- Paradeisos 3857

    Thayer’s greek lexicon

    3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43


    The place in Sheol where the Fallen angels were sent is also different from prison and Paradise.
    5020. tartaroó
    cast into hell.
    From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment -- cast down to hell.


    So tartarus is part of hell/the grave as well.

    We see that it says all the disobedient souls in Prison, even the souls that died before the Flood, were preached to. He then uses this reference to all the souls in Prison/hell to show how eight only were saved by water but now we are all saved by Christ and born again in baptism.
    Ephesians 4:9-10
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    1 Peter 3:
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Noah and his family did indeed die, it is written. They now sleep in the grave as all the dead do. Christ went and preached to the Spirits in Prison when he died it written.

    Strongs 5438 Phulake
    cage, hold, imprisonment, ward

    From phulasso; a guarding or (concretely, guard), the act, the person; figuratively, the place, the condition, or (specially), the time (as a division of day or night), literally or figuratively -- cage, hold, (im-)prison(-ment), ward, watch.
     
  20. Revelation 22:10-12

    Revelation 22:10-12 Member

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    Thank you for replying and sharing.

    If you read His words in John 15:1-10 and onward with discernment, you will find that He is talking about abiding in Him in being His disciples so that they may bear fruit and that their joy may be full.

    Matthew 25:36-41 is the white throne judgment when all the rest of the dead shall be judged whether or not they go into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    James was only talking about how a church that verbalizes their faith in His Providence to the poor, should lead by example to that poor; and not verbalize that faith to the poor for how they were getting out of helping the poor which was what they were doing as another way of disrespecting the poor.

    I believe we are saved by faith without love and thus without works, but Christians that remain that way when the Bridegroom comes, may be at risk of being left behind at the pre great trib rapture event because there will be no schism at the Marriage Supper table for why every believer should be asking Jesus for help to love their enemies and forgive them, especially when it comes to the brethren that are NOT asking for forgiveness and are not going to stop.

    The Good News that we are saved by faith without love is that we can ask Jesus to help us to love others and provide that love, a fruit of the Spirit, in us so we can love others in following Him as we should.

    1 John 4:19We love him, because he first loved us.

    Philippians 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

    So if anybody out there with the devil having a grip on their anger to tempt them to hate and have malice, call on Jesus Christ for help and hope in Him to deliver you from that devil's grip on your anger.

    1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
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