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Jacob Wrestling God Significance

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by RGW00, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And God includes the Person of Jesus His Son. But He was not here in human form in a human body.
     
  2. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    well some scriptures use "God" to describe an angel or agent of God would take that into consideration also.

    It's very possible it was an angel with the authority of God here.


    Again i'm just throwing this out though, some see this figure as God and others like myself as an angel with the authority of God.

    For example the figure but the figure in the fire furnace with the 3 hebrew boys was believed to be a manifestation of God in that case.

    It's hard to tell lots of times but the key thing to understand is that God was the one moving in the midst and he was responsible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  3. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    The angel gave Jacob a hernia. He was not able to have more sons after this. It was common to touch someone testicle's in that time to close an agreement or a vow etc (see Genesis 24:2-3). After the angel yanked on them Jacob said you now have to make some deal with me.
     
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  4. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    What are you talking about? He wrenched his hip, last time I checked He did nothing to his pelvis or testicles
     
  5. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    that's what I was thinking tbh
     
  6. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    We could presume this,if Jacob had not already received the blessing from God.

    Here we find Isaac giving his blessing and instructions to Jacob:
    Genesis: 28. 1. And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2. Arise, go to Padan-aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3. And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4. And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

    Here we find God Blessing Jacob,and Jacob making a covenant of tithing to the Lord,this would be synonymous with Abraham and Melchizedek:

    Genesis: 28. 11. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. 17. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. 18. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21. So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

    We have the completion of the blessing from God in ch. 28

    Jacob already had the Blessing ,why would he need wrestle with God to recieve it again?
    There is no mention of God or a Angel meeting Jacob that night,all Gods Word states is that a man met Jacob.
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    There's the birthright and the blessing...

    God Bless!
     
  8. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    The hollow part of his thigh is referencing his testicles. This is why Jacob had 12 sons and none afterwards.
    The hebrew word yarek often translated as thigh is also translated as loins, to designate the seat of virility.

    Genesis 46:26 (KJV)
    26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;
     
  9. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    I suppose all you want is one blessing from God?
     
  10. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Ok, the question is a presupposition that has no foundation of truth relating to the topic.
    I could ask, was your conclusion derived from other events in the Bible in other Books ,with different people and circumstances?

    I do not want a debate to go on and on,I do not want to debate at all.
    So I will answer your rhetorical question.

    The Blessing for God is not a one time event.
    We find Jacob after receiving the Blessing at Bethel ,having a abundance of blessings in Children ,Cattle ,Wives and over all wealth.
    All anyone ever needs is God's Blessing.
    If we look at salvation and the Grace given to us though Christ ,we understand God's Blessing is limitless.

    God told Jacob this in chapter 27

    Genesis: 28. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
    Does this statement only mean one Blessing?

    Genesis: 28. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
    This was God's promise to all Israel does this look like a singular Blessing?

    Jacob in chapter 32 was afraid of Esau ,that he would hold a grudge over His birthright.

    Genesis: 32. 7. Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands; 8. And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.

    This is what God's Word says ,if anyone wants to wonder all across text ,move forward 500 years to validate a presumption it's fine by me.

    Genesis: 32. 24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

    I would expect God or a Angel to know His name.
    It had been years since Esau had seen Jacob and they were at night wrestling.
    It's logic plain and simple God does not ask illogical questions ,such as what is your name,after Blessing him in chapter 27.
    Thanks for the discussion, I am done debating this though.
     
  11. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Yes,and Jacob received the Blessing through the Birthright.
    I'm sure you will read my long very long response to other persons question asking if I wanted more than one blessing, lol.

    I am Blessed to be a Blessing ,if you cannot live a Blessed life ,you cannot be a Blessing.

    God Bless.
     
  12. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Ok, but for the sake of others I will post a response. Following your logic about this only being a man, who was the man who met Joshua? Certainly it says a man, but this was not an ordinary man.
    Christ is also the Son of Man.

    Joshua 5
    13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

    14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?”

    15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.


    Some have entertained angels unawares, their eyes would behold a man.
    This is just how the scripture text is written, but for Jacob and Joshua, these described as 'men' in scripture, revealed their nature as not being men, yet they looked like a man.
     
  13. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    True, but why didn't He say it was Jesus on Earth at that time?
     
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello RGW00.

    I was rather startled to read what you wrote?
    YHWH walked around in the garden with Adam and Eve.

    What do you mean by saying, 'God sent Jesus down in the New Testament in human form and that's the only time God has ever claimed to come down to Earth.'?

    Here is a clue for you.

    Daniel 3:25
    He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!

    It does not take much thought to work out who that fourth man is.
    God appears in multiple forms to men and women in the Old Testament.

    A popular form is as the angel of the Lord.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  15. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    There is only thing that I notice you said here that confuses me. In scripture there it says the fourth is like a son of the gods. Therefore, there seems to be some doubt who this fourth man is. If you are referring to Jesus, which is what it seems, He was the Son of the God. Not a son of the gods. I agree that He has sent angels down as a form of Him, but here it states that it was actually God. What I meant was that never in the Bible have I seen it talked about that He has ever come in the form of a human except in the New Testament as Jesus.
     
  16. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Ok my Brother,the no foul between Christians.
    I cannot reconcile a connection between Jacob and Joshua.
    I do not deny Angels appear as men and Christ was man himself during his time here.
    The event in Joshua was a form of syntax, that was for a completely different circumstance.
    We know Joshua was about to engage in battle,future tense.
    We also know Jacob was blessed at Bethel,past tense.
    The two Books are separated by Rhetorical modes,and the events are hundreds of years apart.
    Our points of view are different yet we can celebrate the efforts we both put into this.
    GOD Bless.
     
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    I can not accept the man was Esau because he was a lesser man than was Jacob, note v7
    Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.
    And the man who wrestled with Jacob blessed Jacob.


    Hebrews 7:1
    [ The King of Righteousness ] For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

    Hebrews 7:6
    but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.

    Hebrews 7:7
    Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.
     
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Romans 9:10-13New King James Version (NKJV)
    10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac

    11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

    12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

    13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”


    If there is any doubt that Esau was the lesser man, v12 and v13 should prove that.
     
  19. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello RGW00.

    An interesting and difficult topic.
    The text actually uses two terms to describe that fourth person in the fire (Daniel 3:24-28), both as a man and as an angel. Both descriptions (man or angel) seem to contradict one another, this contradiction in the description of the fourth person results from a poor translation. The Hebrew word used to derive, 'angel', in the English language is the word, 'malak', which means a messenger, especially the messenger of a leader or king. I would not use the English word, 'angel', but the word 'messenger' in the translation.

    Of course RGW00, we do not know the identity of the fourth man in the text (Daniel 3:24-28), we are only ever guessing.
    The Word becomes flesh at Bethlehem (John 1:14) and is then called Jesus at that moment, before the incarnation at Bethlehem the Word is not called Jesus.

    Here is another example of a man who is possibly God in disguise.

    Joshua 5
    13 Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14 He said, “No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?” 15 The captain of the Lord’s host said to Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    In OT, many are called gods. But still, there is only one true God.

    Interestingly Gen. 32:24 says he that wrestled was a man:
    “Jacob was left alone, and wrestled with a man there until the breaking of the day”.

    And the man said in Gen. 32:28:
    “He said, "Your name will no longer be called 'Jacob,' but, 'Israel,' for you have fought with God and with men, and have prevailed."”

    Here is one example of many gods in OT:

    God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
    Psalms 82:1

    And from NT:

    For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6

    I may be that Jacob wrestled with some great man or angel.
     
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