LDS J. Smith said Heavenly Father Died

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
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Lots of non-Mormons can say positive things about Mormons; I can. B'nai Brith can have any opinion they want, but they don't represent the ultimate Truth.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
 
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withwonderingawe

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God the Father never took human form like Jesus did.

But there you go again trying to have one God but two at the same time. Are you saying Jesus who is God did not take on flesh or are you saying Jesus is not God???


The point is I have shown you that there are Biblical passages which support the idea that Jesus followed in his Father's footsteps, we each have a right to ask the Holy Spirit if this is the right interpretation or not. I can't tell you you're wrong and you can't tell me I'm wrong.
 
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Peter1000

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If the Holy Spirit will not speak from Himself (John 16:13), then why do the Mormon leaders, who Mormons tell us are guided by that same Holy Spirit, get to do so? Shouldn't they likewise not speak from themselves, if they are truly being guided by the Holy Spirit?

Silly analogy, the HS is a God, our Mormon prophets are not.

In Romans 3:5 and 1 Corinthians 9:8 Paul uses the verbiage, "I speak as a man". These are other words for, 'it is his opinion, or his own words', and not revelation from God.

You have 1/1000 of the words of Paul or any of the apostles. I'm sure they had personal opinions about things that were not revelations from Jesus. For instance, Paul says in
1 Corinthians 14:34 that women are to be silent in churches. I happen to believe that was a personal opinion of Paul and not a revelation from Jesus.

Our prophets have opinions too, and sometimes they show up in their sermons. So what?
 
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Peter1000

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Lots of non-Mormons can say positive things about Mormons; I can. B'nai Brith can have any opinion they want, but they don't represent the ultimate Truth.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
If Mormons say it's trash, it is one thing. For a non-Mormon to say it's trash it is a totally different thing. If these non-Mormon entities banned this trash, it should not be showing up on this forum as proof of what the Mormons believe.

Your scriptures are right on again.
 
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disciple1

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Then what was Jesus talking about in John 5
"Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: ... For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.....
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;..."

He can't do anything he hasn't seen his Father do, as the Father has life in himself so does the Son

In John 10 He says
"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again..."

What does that mean to you?
The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: ... For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.....
So your assuming God died because Jesus did, I take it.
Does that also mean if Jesus took a bath he saw the father take one first, and if Jesus used some kind of restroom he saw the father do it first, sorry but none of that makes sense.
John chapter 1 verse 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That's speaking of Jesus and God the two are the same.
 
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Peter1000

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A prophet of God is not allowed his own interpretation of things. If they do, they are not following the Spirit. If they are not following the Spirit, then they are not prophets of God.
Prophets of God have families and friends and are doing things that do not require an answer from the HS all of the time. You are confused because all you have from past prophets are 1/1000 of their God breathed words, that did require the HS. Except even some bible passages are opinion (non HS), and not revelation (HS). (Mostly from Paul)

If you were to follow Moses around all day you would have a different opinion of Moses. How many of the children of Israel rejected Moses and turned against him. Would you have been one of those people??

You would have a different opinion of all the prophets if you were in their immediate company. They were men, with mans frailties and mans thoughts, even though they did recieve revelations from God, this was not happening 100% of their breathing life.
 
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Peter1000

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So your assuming God died because Jesus did, I take it.
Does that also mean if Jesus took a bath he saw the father take one first, and if Jesus used some kind of restroom he saw the father do it first, sorry but none of that makes sense.
John chapter 1 verse 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That's speaking of Jesus and God the two are the same.

In another post, I said that there is a 'logical' conclusion to this scripture, and that was that Jesus did those things that he saw his Father do.
1) He saw his Father in the flesh, preaching the gospel to his people.
2) He saw his Father heal the sick and cure all manner of diseases.
3) He saw his Father crucified for the sins of his people and became their savior.
4) He saw his Father resurrected with a perfect, powerful body of flesh and bone and spirit.
5) He saw his Father ruling the universe.

Now, an off-the-wall, illogical, and maybe leaning towards blasphemous conclusion to this verse would be that Jesus couldn't take a step without checking to see if the Father had taken that step. Jesus couldn't take a bath, couldn't go to the restroom, etc., etc., etc. without making sure that he saw his Father do these things.

That's speaking of Jesus and God the two are the same.
You are aware that if you think Jesus and God are the same Person, you are not representing the Trinity very well. The Trinity says that they are 2 distinct Persons, that share the same body. Mormons believe that they are 2 distinct Persons that have Their own separate bodies. So there are 3 Persons in the Godhead that are so united in Their pupose that it is as if They are 1 God.
It is that definition that allows Mormons to reconcile all NT scriptures to the true nature of God, and Jesus, and the HS.[/QUOTE]
 
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BigDaddy4

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But there you go again trying to have one God but two at the same time. Are you saying Jesus who is God did not take on flesh or are you saying Jesus is not God???

To quote Jesus in John 3:11-12; Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

If you don't understand the concept of the Trinity, you won't understand God.

The point is I have shown you that there are Biblical passages which support the idea that Jesus followed in his Father's footsteps, we each have a right to ask the Holy Spirit if this is the right interpretation or not. I can't tell you you're wrong and you can't tell me I'm wrong.

The only thing you have shown is how to twist Scripture to fit the lds theology. We can tell you the lds are wrong because we have the historical Christianity to rely on. There are several posters here who are members of historical churches and can trace their lineage back to the Apostles and/or early church fathers. The only lds counter to that is an unprovable "great apostasy", or other such nonsense that attempts to discredit said history, which lacks any believable and credible evidence, and which makes God a liar to boot. So, yeah, Christianity can say the lds are wrong in thier interpretations.
 
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dzheremi

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1Cor 11
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Is this Paul's personal opinion or is this considered a thus saith the Lord?

I have no idea what "a thus saith the Lord" is, but, no, those words are not found in the passage, as you can see (?).

Is your point that it's somehow St. Paul's personal opinion, therefore _____? (We don't have to follow it?)

If that's your stance, then I think you might be addressing this argument to the wrong poster, as we definitely follow this commandment in my Church, whereas it's not so much the case with most other churches (as I understand), due to changing conceptions of how to pray in the West.

Women_in_Syrian_Orthodox_Church_Palm_Sunday_Bombay.jpg

Indian Syriac Orthodox women

images

Middle Eastern Syriac Orthodox women (laypeople and nuns)

egyptian-women-pray.jpg

Coptic Orthodox women

Mideast-Israel-Easter_Horo-2-e1428232592104-635x357.jpg

Orthodox Tewahedo (Ethiopian and Eritrean) women

000_DV2011308-e1429795771374.jpg

Armenian Apostolic women

In fact, in my old parish in Albuquerque, there was a big sign by the door in English and Arabic reminding everyone that being properly dressed is considered part of being a worshiper, so anyone who is not properly dressed will not be given communion. There was a basket with headcoverings also near the door, so that any woman who arrived late or without a headcovering of her own can take one and put it on, or be given one by one of the ladies who is already there.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Prophets of God have families and friends and are doing things that do not require an answer from the HS all of the time. You are confused because all you have from past prophets are 1/1000 of their God breathed words, that did require the HS. Except even some bible passages are opinion (non HS), and not revelation (HS). (Mostly from Paul)

If you were to follow Moses around all day you would have a different opinion of Moses. How many of the children of Israel rejected Moses and turned against him. Would you have been one of those people??

You would have a different opinion of all the prophets if you were in their immediate company. They were men, with mans frailties and mans thoughts, even though they did recieve revelations from God, this was not happening 100% of their breathing life.

dzheremi posted this Scripture before, but it's worth repeating over and over:
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Holy Spirit does not guide one to lie, or repeat gossip, even if it is their own opinion as Ironhold suggests. Isn't it odd that JS and BY seemed to think their sermons, speeches, etc. were inspired, but the lds congregation voted against them (or chose not to vote at all for them, however it worked out)?? Who was filled with more of the Holy Spirit - JS/BY or the lds congregation who voted on them (or neither!)? If JS/BY, how come their words are not canonized? If the lds congregation, then what does that say about JS/BY being inspired when they, as prophets, said their words were??

The answer to the above is neither were inspired. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.
 
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Peter1000

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To quote Jesus in John 3:11-12; Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

If you don't understand the concept of the Trinity, you won't understand God.



The only thing you have shown is how to twist Scripture to fit the lds theology. We can tell you the lds are wrong because we have the historical Christianity to rely on. There are several posters here who are members of historical churches and can trace their lineage back to the Apostles and/or early church fathers. The only lds counter to that is an unprovable "great apostasy", or other such nonsense that attempts to discredit said history, which lacks any believable and credible evidence, and which makes God a liar to boot. So, yeah, Christianity can say the lds are wrong in thier interpretations.

If you don't understand the concept of the Trinity, you won't understand God.

Good luck with that. The historical church Fathers assure us that the Trinity is a mystery and cannot be understood by the human mind.

So I guess you are not going to know God, and I will add that if you do not know God you will not have eternal life. (John 17:3)
 
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BigDaddy4

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Good luck with that. The historical church Fathers assure us that the Trinity is a mystery and cannot be understood by the human mind.

So I guess you are not going to know God, and I will add that if you do not know God you will not have eternal life. (John 17:3)
Know Trinity, no mystery. No Trinity, know mystery.
 
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dzheremi

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We are not using non-Mormon words to insulate ourselves, we are using their words to establish the truth.

Again, which you are loathe to do in other contexts when, according to their words, the truth is clearly not with you.

Since my Mormon opinion usually means nothing to you

Really? Come on, now...that's not true. I don't take you or any Mormon as any kind of source to preach on Christianity, because I don't believe you follow it, but your opinion about things that you actually do follow does matter. I would take into account your opinion on Mormonism as a religion, on the BOM, on the POGP, etc. as being that of someone who knows quite a lot about those things.

perhaps a non-Mormon opinion would be more valuable. If a non-Mormon even says its trash, it possibly could be trash.

But then if a non-Mormon has things to say about Christianity vis-a-vis Mormonism, they are "muting God", "doing theology by vote", "listening to sinful men instead of God", etc.? (These are all things that Mormon posters have accused me of personally for quoting the fathers and sticking to the definition of the Christian faith held throughout the world prior to 451 AD, as would be expected of a Coptic Orthodox person.)

You don't see how this is incredibly hypocritical?

Trash is trash. You should be willing to back Mormons when a person lies about our church. I would do the same for you and your church. Actually, come to think about it, that would be the Christian way.

Well, you will notice that I am not commenting approvingly on the video, (a) because it is not something that I know anything about, and (b) because if it's inaccurate according to people who actually know Mormonism (Mormons, not the B'nai Brith!), then it shouldn't be approved of just because it was produced by Christians. I have noticed, however, that the response from other Mormons in this thread isn't that it contains no truth whatsoever, but that is exaggerated. So I would want to know what it got right and what it got wrong from a Mormon perspective before I could really evaluate it. (Which honestly I'm not even interested in doing; it's a random YouTube video that is apparently popular with Evangelical Protestants, but I'm also not one of those, so I don't want to spend my time watching videos that they produce about Mormonism when I can just ask a Mormon about what they believe.)

So let us see the Christian side of you on this subject.

See above.

BTW, the church fathers contradict each other, not just JS.

Their contradicting Joseph Smith is of no consequence, as Joseph Smith is a non-person in Christianity. You might as well say they contradict Muhammad or the Dalai Lama or whoever. As far as their contradicting each other, I'd need to see some examples to know what it is you're even talking about. Please bring a few examples and we can discuss them, if you are interested.
 
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Peter1000

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dzheremi posted this Scripture before, but it's worth repeating over and over:
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Holy Spirit does not guide one to lie, or repeat gossip, even if it is their own opinion as Ironhold suggests. Isn't it odd that JS and BY seemed to think their sermons, speeches, etc. were inspired, but the lds congregation voted against them (or chose not to vote at all for them, however it worked out)?? Who was filled with more of the Holy Spirit - JS/BY or the lds congregation who voted on them (or neither!)? If JS/BY, how come their words are not canonized? If the lds congregation, then what does that say about JS/BY being inspired when they, as prophets, said their words were??

The answer to the above is neither were inspired. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.
Like I say, follow Moses or Noah or Enoch or Isaiah around for a year and you see the odd things that they did and said, you would then have enough information to answer your own questions about modern prophets.
 
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Peter1000

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Again, which you are loathe to do in other contexts when, according to their words, the truth is clearly not with you.



Really? Come on, now...that's not true. I don't take you or any Mormon as any kind of source to preach on Christianity, because I don't believe you follow it, but your opinion about things that you actually do follow does matter. I would take into account your opinion on Mormonism as a religion, on the BOM, on the POGP, etc. as being that of someone who knows quite a lot about those things.



But then if a non-Mormon has things to say about Christianity vis-a-vis Mormonism, they are "muting God", "doing theology by vote", "listening to sinful men instead of God", etc.? (These are all things that Mormon posters have accused me of personally for quoting the fathers and sticking to the definition of the Christian faith held throughout the world prior to 451 AD, as would be expected of a Coptic Orthodox person.)

You don't see how this is incredibly hypocritical?



Well, you will notice that I am not commenting approvingly on the video, (a) because it is not something that I know anything about, and (b) because of it's inaccurate according to people who actually know Mormonism (Mormons, not the B'nai Brith!), then it shouldn't be approved of just because it was produced by Christians. I have noticed, however, that the response from other Mormons in this thread isn't that it contains no truth whatsoever, but that is exaggerated. So I would want to know what it got right and what it got wrong from a Mormon perspective before I could really evaluate it. (Which honestly I'm not even interested in doing; it's a random YouTube video that is apparently popular with Evangelical Protestants, but I'm also not one of those, so I don't want to spend my time watching videos that they produce about Mormonism when I can just ask a Mormon about what they believe.)



See above.



Their contradicting Joseph Smith is of no consequence, as Joseph Smith is a non-person in Christianity. You might as well say they contradict Muhammad or the Dalai Lama or whoever.
As far as their contradicting each other, I'd need to see some examples to know what it is you're even talking about. Please bring a few examples and we can discuss them, if you are interested.

Thank you for your Christian attitude about the video. I too would do the same thing if someone said they had a negative video about the Coptic Orthodox Church (did I get that right?).

Their contradicting Joseph Smith is of no consequence, as Joseph Smith is a non-person in Christianity. You might as well say they contradict Muhammad or the Dalai Lama or whoever.

There is a difference. It is that JS is a follower of Jesus Christ. He says that he saw Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of God. (BTW, just like Stephen testifies). He received instruction from Jesus personally about the restoration of the true church of Jesus Christ. By the biblical definition, he is a Christian.

Muhammad declared that Jesus was simply a prophet, not the son of God. He was never a Christian.

Dalai Lama does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, or the Son of God, and is not a Christian.

So again, you misfit JS with other non followers of Jesus. JS died for his testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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Peter1000

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Know Trinity, no mystery. No Trinity, know mystery.
OK, let me ask you some simple questions. I will start with this one.

The Trinity theology says that God and Jesus and HS are made of the same substance and share the same substance. It is this sharing that gives them the ability to be 1 God in 3 Persons.

The question is: What is this substance made of??
 
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BigDaddy4

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Like I say, follow Moses or Noah or Enoch or Isaiah around for a year and you see the odd things that they did and said, you would then have enough information to answer your own questions about modern prophets.
Quite the impossible task you are offering. And you would know these "odd things" how? Irrational arguments do not help your POV.
 
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dzheremi

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There is a difference. It is that JS is a follower of Jesus Christ. He says that he saw Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of God. (BTW, just like Stephen testifies). He received instruction from Jesus personally about the restoration of the true church of Jesus Christ. By the biblical definition, he is a Christian.

Here you are getting into your own religion's theology and ecclesiology, which is precisely what makes Joseph Smith and indeed all Mormons not Christians to begin with. So no, he is not a Christian. I recognize that it is your feeling as a Mormon that what you have posted is a true statement regarding Joseph Smith's Christianity, but there is no Biblical nor Patristic support for that view outside of Mormons' feelings that it must be so.

Muhammad declared that Jesus was simply a prophet, not the son of God. He was never a Christian.

Dalai Lama does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, or the Son of God, and is not a Christian.

Indeed. That was the point of mentioning them: they, like Joseph Smith, are not Christian figures to begin with. Similarly, Joseph Smith is a non-figure in Christianity. He is the founder and prophet of Mormonism, and nothing in Christianity.

So again, you misfit JS with other non followers of Jesus. JS died for his testimony of Jesus Christ.

According to the historical record, Joseph Smith died while being held in jail on charges connected to ordering his followers to destroy a printing press which had printed negative things about him, not for his testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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withwonderingawe

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So your assuming God died because Jesus did, I take it.
Does that also mean if Jesus took a bath he saw the father take one first, and if Jesus used some kind of restroom he saw the father do it first, sorry but none of that makes sense.
John chapter 1 verse 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That's speaking of Jesus and God the two are the same.

It means God the Father was once truly human with the ability to die just as Jesus did yet have life in himself and so was able to come forth from the grave as an immortal resurrected and glorified man. It means when you see him and he wipes the tears from your eyes you will see that he too has prints in his hands.
 
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BigDaddy4

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OK, let me ask you some simple questions. I will start with this one.

The Trinity theology says that God and Jesus and HS are made of the same substance and share the same substance. It is this sharing that gives them the ability to be 1 God in 3 Persons.

The question is: What is this substance made of??
Why does that matter? Of what use is it to know the answer? That would border on idolatry.

Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

God does not reveal what this substance consists of. Probably for good reasons. One of which may be so man doesn't try to replicate it somehow. Knowing the make up of this substance has no bearing on one's salvation. Knowing who does.
 
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