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Featured LDS J. Smith said Heavenly Father Died

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

    Does it bother you that you worship an immaterial substances which the Bible never speaks of?

    We do have a different concept of just what an angel is.

    In Rev 22 John tries to worship an angel;
    8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    Angels are not some kind of other being, Cherubims are another kind of heavenly being but angels are prophets who return as messengers of God. Or just un-resurrected spirits

    "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Heb 1

    Your grandmother could be your guardian angel.

    * Satan didn't lie about us becoming like gods

    "...and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.....And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.."

    God made an opening statement 'Let us make an in our image and after our likeness..." he didn't say part way or just sort of. In Rev 3 " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
  2. HeLeadethMe

    HeLeadethMe Active Member

    Do you mean that what the mormons are portraying here is not an accurate picture of mormon beliefs? I think that sadly, it is mormons themselves who do not realize what it is they are actually embracing and where it is leading.
  3. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    That is not what I said.
    You are free to think that, and I'm not trying to change your opinion on the matter. I was just offering to help you better understand what LDS beliefs actually are, regardless of your opinion on them.
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    You need to be careful what you say. John 5:19 & 30 was said by Jesus himself. Is Jesus your God?
    If he is then by his own admission, he can only do what he sees his Father do.
    He also admits he can do nothing of himself.

    Do you still want to claim Jesus as your God?

    Since Jesus did many wonderful works and miracles.
    Since Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead.
    Since Jesus allowed himself to be crusified to fulfill his mission.
    Since Jesus died on the cross.
    Since Jesus raised himself from the dead, with a body of flesh and bone and spirit.
    We know his Father and God did the same things. It is the only logical conclusion of John 5:19.

    God the Father is our Father and God too. The only God with which we have to do, though there be gods and lords many, we only have to do with God the Father (1 Corinthians 8:5), who happens to be the Father and God of Jesus Christ too. (John 20:17)

    We too, are aware that there are other gods and lords, but that is as far as it goes. Our focus and devotion must be on our God, who is God the Father and we worship Him only, when He tells us to worship His son, we do that also. Any other gods, we give it little thought, because El is who we worship, the same El that Jesus worships, the same El that Jesus looks to as an example, the same El that Jesus cried out to while he was on the cross. Who do you worship?
  5. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

    Spot on! :oldthumbsup:
  6. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    First we need to find out which God said that.
    1) Was is Elohim (El)/God the Father
    2) Was it Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus/ God the Son
    3) Was it the HS/Holy Ghost/ God the HS

    Which one said it?
  7. HeLeadethMe

    HeLeadethMe Active Member

    Satan most certainly did lie, wow, scripture says he is a liar and the truth is not in him.......eating his words caused Adam and Eve to fall rather than become like angels didn't it.........they only became "gods" in their own mind, deceived and whimpering, hiding in the bushes......and they died like mere men. Do not go beyond what is written and add to God's word.......HIS meaning, HIS intent. It's too precious to tamper with.........touch the holy ark of God with your bare hands of flesh, and expect it to lead to death. Antichrist spirit shall obtain the kingdom peaceably with FLATTERIES.......it appeals to our pride, knowledge, vanity. There is a very fine line between flesh and spirit, cross it and you're in the death zone. So dont dare to make too much of being like the angels.........what matters is how we live in this life, the gospel, and most are not even going to make it to be like the angels.....they are on the broad way to perdition. The word gods just means divine being, spiritual being (angel in other words)......it does not mean we will be Gods with a capital G. An image and likeness is just a REFLECTION of an original......we are to reflect HIS glory, HIS nature, HIS spirit.....it is not of our own and we will never be Gods in our own right. That is so blasphemous, can't even stand to listen to it. All glory is to God alone and any crowns He is so gracious to give us undeserving wretches who only do our reasonable service and even that we do by HIS help, will be laid at His feet. I think I have nothing more to say.........other than wake up and come out of her, you are badly deceived and your church is leading you astray.
  8. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    If God the Father and God the son and God the HS are 1 God, then God the
    Father died on the cross with God the Son. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If they are 1, God died. You can read about it in the bible.
  9. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

    Oriental Orthodox
    Of course, Peter. As always, we can both read.

    Why would I not? What I am disagreeing with is the Mormon interpretation of what verses like the above mean, not with the reality that they were said by Christ, Who is God.

    It's not logical, though, because it's so absurdly literally-taken as to make a farce and pantomime of the Gospel.

    If we are going take the Mormon understanding as what is self-evidently true, then it stands to reason that all the things that Jesus did were earlier done by the Father. So, for instance, when the risen Jesus instructed St. Thomas to place his fingers into His side (John 20:24-29), this must've been something that God the Father had earlier done with some kind of 'other-earth' St. Thomas after God the Father's earlier crucifixion, death, and resurrection, right?

    Or when Christ chased the money-changers out of the temple (Matthew 21:12-17), this is following what He had seen the Father do at some earlier point. So I guess then God the Father also went to Bethany -- a real, existing physical location on this world -- but to the Bethany on His other, earlier-existing 'other earth', right? They just happened to both have towns named Bethany in which to lodge after performing the same act, presumably for the same reason, etc.?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    But such a scheme is contradicted by your fellow Mormon Jane_Doe who has already clarified that it is not by imitation that we are to understand the relation of the acts of the Father and the Son (see post #14 on page one of this thread).

    So who is right: Jane, or you and Ironhold? Presumably you all have Bibles out of which to argue, even if the resulting theology is not consistent with itself.


    Argued like a true Nestorian. It is recorded that the said similar things regarding Christ:

    And we refuse to say of Christ, "For the sake of Him that wore I reverence that which is worn, for the sake of the Invisible I worship the seen." It is besides an awful thing to say, "He that is assumed shares the Name of God with Him That assumed him." For he that says thus severs again into two christs, and puts man apart by himself and God likewise: for he denies manifestly the Union, whereby not as one in another is any co-worshipped nor co-named God, but One Christ Jesus is conceived of, the Only Begotten Son, worshipped with one worship together with His own flesh. But we confess that the Son begotten of God the Father and Only-Begotten God Himself, albeit Impassible in His own Nature, hath suffered in the flesh [1 Peter 4:1] for us according to the Scriptures, and was in His crucified body making His own in an Impassible manner the Sufferings of His own Flesh. And by the grace of God He tasted death [Heb. 2:9] even for every one, albeit by Nature Life and Himself the Resurrection. [John 11:25] For in order that, with Ineffable Might having trodden down death in His own flesh first, He might become the Firstborn of the Dead [Col. 1:18] and Firstfruits of them that slept [1 Cor. 15:20], and might make a way to the nature of man for a return to incorruption, by the grace of God, as we said just now, He tasted death for every man, and lived again after three days having spoiled Hades; so that even though the Resurrection of the Dead [1 Cor. 15:21] be said to be through man, yet we do conceive of the Word of God made Man and that through Him has the Might of Death been undone and He shall come in His time as one Son and Lord in the glory of the Father to judge the world in righteousness [Acts 17:31], as it is written.

    -- HH St. Cyril of Alexandria, Third Letter to Nestorius (full thing here)

    Do you? Because it seems like your prophet gave such things quite a bit of thought, and fashioned a resulting theology that openly embraces the existence many, many gods.

    Alright, then; have fun worshiping the supreme God of the Canaanites! :wave:

    Well that's odd...Jesus Christ, Whom I worship with His good Father and the Holy Spirit, called God our Father! "Abun d'bashmayo, nethqadosh ishmokh, tihe malkuthokh, nehwe sebyonokh..."

    Maybe my ears and eyes are a little rusty, but I don't hear or see "El" in there where you'd expect it to be if Jesus Christ also prayed to the Canaanite deity you love so much.

    (And, no, I don't think that this is attributable to evolutions characteristic of Syriac that would've been absent from Jesus' own native Aramaic.)

    The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- the One God.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    If what JS says is true, you do not need to fear him, you need to fear Jesus Christ.
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    Well then, you read that Jesus said, he can do nothing of himself, and he only does those things that he sees the Father do. Is that a weak God to you?

    That's why I asked if Jesus was still your God, because your comments were that the Mormon god is a weak god, based on that scripture. The Mormon Jesus is the one that said John 5:19 and 30. We believe the bible, so we believe what the bible says.
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    Who was Jesus standing next to in Acts 7:56??? If Jesus was standing next to someone, would that make 2 separate and distinct Persons??? Stephen thought so and apparently Luke thought it was important enough to say it twice in verses 55 & 56.

    Who was Jesus standing next to in Acts 7:56?? How many Persons did Stephen see?
  13. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

    Oriental Orthodox
    No, because what that means is not what you take it to mean. Your eisegesis is the Mormon, not the Christian, understanding of the verse you are quoting. The Christian understanding is not so simplistic as to say "Jesus said that He only does what the Father does, so they must've done all the exact same things, just at different times." (In fact, that specific idea is refuted centuries before Mormonism ever existed; see below.) Rather, our fathers understood this passage as an affirmation and manifestation of their shared nature.

    "Let them weigh then how great a crowd of blasphemies is heaped up by them, from their choosing so to think, and let them think truly of the Son as it is written. For neither by contemplation of what is performed by the Father, nor yet by having Him as antecedent to Himself in actions, is the Son a Doer or Wonder-worker, and by reason hereof God: but because a certain law of Nature carries Him to the Exact Likeness of Him who begat Him, even though it shine forth and is manifested through the unceasing likeness of Their Works. But setting before us again, if you please, the verse, and testing it with more diligent scrutiny, let us consider accurately, what is the force of the words and let us now see how we must think with piety. Therefore,

    Verily verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these doeth also the Son likewise.

    Thou seest how through the exact likeness too in the works, He sheweth Himself like in all things to the Father, that thereby He may be shewn to be Heir of His Essence also. For in that He must of necessity and incontrovertibly be conceived of as being God by Nature, Who hath Equal working with God the Father, the Saviour says thus. But let no one be offended, when He says economical, that He can do nothing of Himself but what He seeth the Father do. For in that He was now arrayed in the form of the servant and made Man by being united to flesh, He did not make His discourse free, nor altogether let loose unto God-befitting boldness, but used rather at times by an economy such discourse as befits alike God and Man. For He was really both in the same."

    -- HH St. Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, book II chapter 6 (emphasis added)

    The Mormon god is a weak god, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the God of holy scripture but that Mormons have convinced themselves that he does, and are in this thread trying to convince us that he does, too.

    Not even slightly.

    You believe in the theology or theologies of Joseph Smith and the other leaders of your non-Christian replacement religion, which are not at all in keeping with what the Bible says.
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    If the sons of God is a reference to angels, are angels the sons of God?

    What is your reference to ye shall be gods, yet ye shall die like mere men??
  15. Super14LDS

    Super14LDS Active Member

    Good question :)

    See Christ; Christ, names of; Jehovah.

    Here's the link --> Lord

    Any disagreement?

  16. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

    What he wrote was fiction in the style of the King James Bible. There is no need to obey him.
  17. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

    So let’s go through each passage you referenced and I’ll add in some insight from Strong’s. It has a lot to do with the word Elohim which is plural but reads singularly if there is a single noun like ’he’. The placing of the big and little G is simply at the discretion of the translators, these accident languages had no punctuation.

    “There are no other actual gods in the OT or the universe. If there were, why would God say that He alone is God Isaiah 45:5, ….”

    The Lord says;
    “I am the Lord, and there is none else, there are no gods beside me:
    ….. I am the Lord, and there is none else. ….. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.”

    So no other gods right but wait verse 18 says

    “For thus saith the Lord/Yahweh that created the heavens; God/Elohim himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord/Yahweh; and there is none else.”

    What does it say in Heb 1
    “God, …..Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”

    Yahweh/Jesus created the world but under the direction of the Father.

    *that there was no God formed before Him Isaiah 43:10,

    Was God formed?

    “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.”

    Strong’s says the word formed means in the sense of being pre-ordained. Peter taught us in 1 Peter 1

    “19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    So he was the only one pre-ordained to be our Savior. But there is more. Ps 89 speaks of this;

    6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the El can be likened unto the Lord?
    7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the Holy Ones, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

    And then Heb 1
    5 For unto which of the angels/other sons of God said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Non of the angels or other spirits well be begotten on earth as Yahweh was.

    6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world,

    By first begotten he’s saying first begotten in the spirit. Yahweh/ Jesus was the first begotten in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh.

    “ …he saith, And let all the angels/sons of God worship him.
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

    God the Father anoints his eldest Son God and commands the rest to worship him.

    There is non else he alone is Savior.

    He says at the end of the chapter;
    “25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
    26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

    If there is no other Gods then to whom is Yahweh pleading?

    *and that He doesn't even KNOW of any other gods Isaiah 44:8?

    So let’s look at the whole thought, it to is referring to this ancient believe of the gods.

    6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
    8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    The important word here is “the ancient/owlam people”. Ancient is the same word used in Ps 90 ‘everlasting’ . Yahweh appointed the everlasting people?

    Yahweh is Lord of Host, God of gods, Lord of lords.

    Going back to Isa 45 he says;
    “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.”

    Did you know he never says ‘all their host have I created‘, that’s because it was El who created all the host of heaven and earth before they were in the earth. But he does command them and he is their God, there is non else.

    I’ll skip to 1 Sam. 2:2, "There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our God."

    And quote 2 Sam 22

    “ The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
    The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.”
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

    United States

    IOW, there is only ONE GOD, not two, not three, not fifteen!
  19. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member


    Trying to find the link I had, but apparently at the time Joseph allegedly said that a number of newspapers had fallen for a hoax which said... exactly what the critics accused JS of saying. If it's true he said that, then he could well have been simply repeating what he'd read in a recent newspaper.
  20. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    Actually, this was not banned.

    Rather, the National Council of Christians & Jews *and* the Anti-Defamation League of B'Nai B'Rith both panned the movie it was part of as being "hate" material that was too full of lies and inaccuracies to bother with.

    I saved a response I made to the video about a decade or so back if you'd like me to copy & paste it here. Basically though, everything you see in there is false to at least some degree, and does not reflect actual church teaching and practice.