It's the little things...

[WolfGate]

Cassia - wish you'd stick around. I learned much, and enjoyed reading, the Hannah thread. Didn't participate because I had never studied in detail and didn't have knowledge to add anything. But understand if you feel this isn't the place for you.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Cassia - wish you'd stick around. I learned much, and enjoyed reading, the Hannah thread. Didn't participate because I had never studied in detail and didn't have knowledge to add anything. But understand if you feel this isn't the place for you.

When I was told about the new forum it was at a time I was walking away from cf so have yet to change my mind.
I may continue at some point with those threads but find it uncomfortable in this forum at the present time. But thanks for saying so.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Ok. If you ever would like to clarify, please feel free to do so.

(I am trying to understand what you are concerned about, but can't do that very well unless you point out an example of the problems you see.)

You didn't offend me. I'm just tired of explaining myself. I think that I made myself clear as to the problem as I see it but we are at an impass in understanding.

 

[Dave-W]

The thing is that when a person's beliefs are accosted (yes that is the word for it) in a forum that supposedly disallows it and to not confront that .. gives permission. I don't want to be a part of that. Plain and simple. Maybe at a later date I will pick up the threads I began but at this point I don't much see the purpose. Maybe ya'll will get free some day.

Cassia started 2 threads in this forum: Hannah's Prayer and Feminine Metaphors in the Bible. In the latter, I am the only responder. And I thought my post would support and clarify her OP.

I ask the mods to see if I owe her an apology.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Cassia started 2 threads in this forum: Hannah's Prayer and Feminine Metaphors in the Bible. In the latter, I am the only responder. And I thought my post would support and clarify her OP.

I ask the mods to see if I owe her an apology.

There's no way that I would be upset about anyone criticing my posts.

It's been my complaint since coming back to CF that the Lutheran/Catholic coalition is forcing non-litergical Christians out as is. Put up and shut up is the general theme.

But I can't in good conscience lead others to something that the poster above claims to be unheard of in her experience of Christianity.

 

[Paidiske]

As a mod, I see a lot of behind the scenes stuff, and I see no evidence of such a coalition, or of a desire to force anyone out. To the contrary, I think there's a desire to make it possible for as wide a range as possible of Christians to feel welcome and to contribute. (That doesn't mean we always get it right, just that that's what I see the intent as).

It is possible that we liturgical folks tend to dominate some conversations; and if I've contributed to an environment where others feel unwelcome to post in that way, I'm sorry, because it was never my intent.

I'm not sure how that relates to Cimorene's experience - or lack thereof - of inequality, though.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

As a mod, I see a lot of behind the scenes stuff, and I see no evidence of such a coalition, or of a desire to force anyone out. To the contrary, I think there's a desire to make it possible for as wide a range as possible of Christians to feel welcome and to contribute. (That doesn't mean we always get it right, just that that's what I see the intent as).

Well we cannot discuss any modish business

It is possible that we liturgical folks tend to dominate some conversations; and if I've contributed to an environment where others feel unwelcome to post in that way, I'm sorry, because it was never my intent.

From my pov a Christian topic is mostly about what you would hear in a sermon. What I find liturgical conversations to be about are what you were hear at a church business meeting. Those who are not liturgical don't talk about those things. So yes, it does leave many out and bored.

I'm not sure how that relates to Cimorene's experience - or lack thereof - of inequality, though.

I'm not sure what that was about either.

 

[Dave-W]

What I find liturgical conversations to be about are what you were hear at a church business meeting. Those who are not liturgical don't talk about those things.

First off, almost every congregation is liturgical at some level. If you have an order of service that is usually followed (greeting, songs, offering, sermon, communion, benediction) then you have a liturgy. It is not a FORMAL liturgy but it still is a liturgy.

Perhaps you have the wrong definition of liturgy?

For those groups that have a more formal liturgy such as the Catholics, Anglicans or Lutherans, discussion of liturgy would take place at a high level in the organization; not at the local congregational level.

For every rule there is an exception, and I guess we Messianics would be that exception. We are definitely liturgical but the degree of formal liturgy, and whether we follow Orthodox, Conservative or Reform Judaism's liturgy, a combination, or one of our own making is up to individual congregations.

 

[All4Christ]

Well we cannot discuss any modish business
From my pov a Christian topic is mostly about what you would hear in a sermon. What I find liturgical conversations to be about are what you were hear at a church business meeting. Those who are not liturgical don't talk about those things. So yes, it does leave many out and bored.

Most of the topics here on Egalitarian Christians are discussions between liturgical and non-liturgical Christians (though Dave is right that all Christians who attend church are liturgical to some extent). There is a mix of backgrounds here in the Egalitarian Christian Forum.

Please consider that judging what type of conversation a person will have based on their worship style is not accurate or fair to posters.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

First off, almost every congregation is liturgical at some level. If you have an order of service that is usually followed (greeting, songs, offering, sermon, communion, benediction) then you have a liturgy. It is not a FORMAL liturgy but it still is a liturgy.

Perhaps you have the wrong definition of liturgy?

For those groups that have a more formal liturgy such as the Catholics, Anglicans or Lutherans, discussion of liturgy would take place at a high level in the organization; not at the local congregational level.

For every rule there is an exception, and I guess we Messianics would be that exception. We are definitely liturgical but the degree of formal liturgy, and whether we follow Orthodox, Conservative or Reform Judaism's liturgy, a combination, or one of our own making is up to individual congregations.

To me liturgical conversations are those that are all about forms of worship or organizational meetings. Tons of that with Judaism I guess too. But just as many Christians as are are not about that. My beliefs are not about that.
If anything they may come down to gifts given by God to perform certain tasks but they sure don't fall into hierarchial consideration.

 

[Paidiske]

From my pov a Christian topic is mostly about what you would hear in a sermon. What I find liturgical conversations to be about are what you were hear at a church business meeting. Those who are not liturgical don't talk about those things. So yes, it does leave many out and bored.

I guess I see sermons as being quite a narrow part of the Christian experience; the sermon is where we reflect on and teach about what we've heard in the reading/s for the day. But our Christian life is so much more than reflecting on and teaching about Scripture.

I see a distinction between the stuff of business meetings; property, money, planning and so on, and the stuff of liturgy, which is about what happens in the worship services. But I would have thought everyone would have had to talk about all those things (unless they're not churchgoing at all).

But I would have hoped that there would be room for conversation in this forum about all of these things and more...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I guess I see sermons as being quite a narrow part of the Christian experience; the sermon is where we reflect on and teach about what we've heard in the reading/s for the day. But our Christian life is so much more than reflecting on and teaching about Scripture.

I see a distinction between the stuff of business meetings; property, money, planning and so on, and the stuff of liturgy, which is about what happens in the worship services. But I would have thought everyone would have had to talk about all those things (unless they're not churchgoing at all).

But I would have hoped that there would be room for conversation in this forum about all of these things and more...

Don't you think your blank stares and even blanker statements are reaching the point of ridiculas now. nuff said.

 

[Paidiske]

Cassia, you seem upset and I don't understand why. I'm trying to understand why so that if possible, we can make this an inclusive space where you feel welcome.

I'd really appreciate it if you'd explain further, if only for the sake of my own understanding a different point of view better.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Cassia, you seem upset and I don't understand why. I'm trying to understand why so that if possible, we can make this an inclusive space where you feel welcome.

I'd really appreciate it if you'd explain further, if only for the sake of my own understanding a different point of view better.

I have tried and failed to get even a spark of light of understanding to begin with a point to work from. Don't worry it's not just from you. Christianity as I know it is dead it seems. That is something to be upset about imo.
Please don't ask for more explanations ok.

 

[Greg J.]

There was a news article on a few days ago that was talking about how women pay more than men for similar products like bodywash, shampoo, clothes (style equivalency, like a plain white t-shirt or jeans), dry cleaning, haircuts, etc. In some cases, women pay 45% more. For example, one day my son and I had our hair cut and styled the same day at the same place. His needed layering, razor around the neck line, gel in his hair, blow dry, etc. Mine was long and needed a straight trim across the bottom and layered bangs. No product and only needed a blow dry. Mine was $35 and his was $18. Men's deodorant is about a dollar cheaper for men. That sort of thing. This is something that comes up on the news every year or so... and I think this year, our more outspoken feminists are keeping a closer eye on this and petitioning the government to do something about it.
...

I don't know what is in the hearts of the people who set the prices, but I wouldn't presume to chalk this up to prejudice. Normal business practice is to find a price point where profit is maximized. The higher the price, the fewer that people will buy. The lower the price, the more people that will buy. What the price should be to balance the number of people who will buy is the goal such that the most profit is made. Apparently, in the cases you refer to, women are willing to pay more for some things. If that wasn't the case, they simply would choose cheaper products and the retailers would adjust. I think one can count on business' motive to make the most money possible.

...
It's been my complaint since coming back to CF that the Lutheran/Catholic coalition is forcing non-litergical Christians out as is. Put up and shut up is the general theme.
...

I have observed the opposite: protestants maintain pressure against Catholic beliefs to the point of ridiculing them. Perhaps it has to do with which forums one reads.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

...
I have observed the opposite: protestants maintain pressure against Catholic beliefs to the point of ridiculing them. Perhaps it has to do with which forums one reads.

It's not a power struggle that I have before or want to now partake in. Hopefully that is not what you presume I'm doing. Nor do I think it's a prejudiced move on her part. I draw just as much a blank in understanding that religion.

 

[WolfGate]

Back to topic of the thread and the little things - and it is a little thing that really impacts both genders but has been intentional for a long time. I officiate swimming (high school, collegiate, and USA Swimming). One of the roles I often serve is as starter, which also includes announcing the event to the swimmers as each event changes. High school swimming and USA Swimming use the terms "girls" and "boys" in their descriptions even for the high school age swimmers. While that is technically correct it doesn't fit what in many cases are really highly trained, disciplined, mature young adults. So, instead of announcing "Event number 7, girl's 50 yard freestyle" I say "Event number 7, women's 50 yard freestyle".

It started as a little joke with my daughter when I would only announce her events that way, kind of to show her how much I admired her work ethic and discipline. Then I started doing it for all that age because it did seem appropriate. I do have fun with it at times. We all know that males mature a little later than females, so if the males are being a bit rambunctious or immature that day I'll announce "women's" and "boys". The "boys" never seem to notice - but the young women certainly do!

Even though I do it for both genders I think it does fit this topic. So often young adult females get referred to as "girls" well into adulthood, while that stops for males after high school. So I'm countering the message that sends a bit by them seeing a middle aged male specifically changing to wording on the official event list to acknowledge they are developing into women.

 

[All4Christ]

So, I'm really proud of one of my friends. Her son has dealt with severe trauma after dealing with a severe chronic concussion. It's called Post-Concussive Syndrome (PTS). He has dealt with severe symptoms for well over a year and a half, far beyond what anyone normally thinks could happen. It is much more common in those who have multiple concussions over years through activities like soccer or football.

All that said, they are finally having some progress in treatment, though he still deals with significant problems. She decided to write a novel written from a teenager's (who suffers with PTS) point of view. I'm am so proud of her for taking this step to increase awareness and understanding of those who experience this syndrome! You can find her blog about the books here.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't know what is in the hearts of the people who set the prices, but I wouldn't presume to chalk this up to prejudice...

When I was studying group dynamics, one of the things they taught us as a governing principle is, "What is not consciously structured is unjustly structured."

What they meant was that often the injustices of our society are not deliberately created (are not "in the heart" of people, to use your language), but because we are often thoughtless or allow things to develop in an ad hoc way, injustice creeps in unchallenged.

I agree with you that sellers will charge what the market will pay. But why will women pay more? What is the social pressure for them to look a certain way? And so on, are questions worth considering.

 

[Greg J.]

... But why will women pay more? What is the social pressure for them to look a certain way? And so on, are questions worth considering.

I agree. I was not trying to address that facet of the issue in my post. The president of a company may not, in his heart, be trying to take advantage of women, but trying to take advantage of the way they already are, which needn't have anything to do with his perceptions of women. He would be doing the same thing whichever variables maximized profit. That is, instead of marketing differently to males and females, he may market differently to home users vs. business users, children vs. adults, people that liked chocolate vs. those that do not, and so forth. (Yeah, I know someone who doesn't like chocolate, and have heard rumors there are others.)