• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

It's not unfair for God to do whatever he pleases.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Jul 30, 2020.

  1. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    I'll eventually make a topic defending each of the five points of Calvinism since people seem to have a lot of misinformation or misunderstanding of just what the five points are and what they say about the Reformed faith. First, I will defend the concept of many Christians saying that God choosing some for damnation (the goats) is wrong or somehow makes God a corrupt,evil and morally wrong monster. To start with this we have to understand the fall and just what occurred when Adam and Eve sinned against God. I'll try to use as much scripture as I can to defend my points.

    After Adam and Eve sinned against God in Genesis 3:1-6. We read that they were instantly afraid of their nakedness and tried to hide and cover their shame from God on verse seven. In verse 8 they hid from God and God found them, punished them and the serpent and promise a savior. Genesis 3:14-17 God made them loincloths because he knew that they couldnt make clothes for themselves and were helpless (verse 21) now tell me if God was immoral and unfair, why did he even bother to clothe Adam and Eve in his love? Why did he promise them and their fellow brothers and sisters a Savior? Why didnt he just throw Satan, and Adam and Eve into the lake of fire forever and started a new creation from scratch? I'll tell you why, because he loved his sheep and hated the goats.

    I know, Genesis is a weak argument for this kind of theology but it's important for all of us to understand the fall and just how the fall happened. The fall was predestined by God (as was every event in human history, the saved, the lost, everything) from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4, Romans 8:28-30, Psalm 139:16, 1 Corinthians 1:27-30, Proverbs 16, ...etc.) This was all done so God's glory could be known, so his justice could be known, and so God's mercy can be known.

    Those chosen to salvation are known as the descendants of Abraham, those written in the book of life, God's sheep, Children of God, blessed by my father, the list just goes on and on. They are shown mercy by God, They are as numerous as the stars (Genesis 15:5, 22:17, 26:4 Revelation 7:9) of a number no man can count, from every tribe, people, and nation (gen 15:5, rev 7:9). And when God says every tribe, tongue and nation, he means it. That means there are some saved Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Jews, gentiles, Japanese people, Chinese people, Finnish people, people from Hungary, France, Belgium ... the list goes on. God saved people from the WHOLE world. An innumerable amount of people. I do not and cannot see how God choosing to save a VAST MAJORITY of the world makes him a monster, evil, or unfair. Him choosing to do so instead of condemning us all should make all of us want to worship him more, and more. When you look at scripture, God didnt just save one (and he would have been a very just God to do so or technically, save none), essentially he saved the world and what's better than that? Best verse in the Bible for this, (Acts 13:48)

    Those written in the book of life are saved forever from before they were even born and before time began. God predestined each and every moment and day of their lives (John 6:37-40, Revelation 3:5, 1 Peter 1:1-12, Psalms 139:16, Ephesians 2:10, John 10:27-30 and more.)

    Those chosen to damnation God calls the Goats. They are the ones that scoff at God, spit in his face and dont keep the commandments, dont believe or practice scripture or call him Lord and dont do what he says in scripture and in real life, and what God destined them for (1 Peter 2:7-8). Gods judgement of the Goats is NOT unfair because God has a right to do with his creation as he wills (Psalm 115:19, Roman's 9:18) /endofargument. It's just a fact that God does whatever he pleases and yet commits no sin, he leaves some hardened and makes some alive (Ephesians 2:4-7).


    I know Reformed Theology can be hard to swallow. But, it is the most accurate and biblical theology mankind has come up with over Christianity's long history. It Is the Theology of the Reformers and was declared Biblical for hundreds of years in Protestantisms over 500 year history. The Jews God's chosen people believe it is true for them. It is Christianity at it's most biblical. It doesnt make God a monster, it makes God a loving, kind, and merciful God who all of God's children should worship, fear, and obey. When Salvation is made just for the Jews people dont really bat an eyelash. But yet when God has a Holy Chosen people more numerous than probably Calvinists will even realize, people go nuts. Which God is the more unfair one? One that just saves a nation? Or one that saves people from EVERY nation and keeps them for ALL eternity as his own? And the greatest words our Lord and Savior have ever said are "I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me, Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, AND THEY WILL BE ONE FLOCK AND ONE SHEPHERD. The reason my Father loves me is because I lay down my life, only to take it up again. No one takes it from me but I lay it down on my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and take it up again. This command I have received from my Father." (John 10:14-18). If that doesn't show God's love, I dont know what does. I rest my case.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    +3,225
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    Reformed Theology is void of Gods sovereign LOVE.

    John 3:16
    Berean Study Bible
    For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Read what you wrote ... you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

    Augustinian Calvinism is a term used to emphasize the origin of John Calvin's theology within Augustine of Hippo's theology over a thousand years earlier. By his own admission, John Calvin's theology was deeply influenced by Augustine of Hippo, the fourth-century church father.

    Augustinian Calvinism - Wikipedia.
     
  3. Running2win

    Running2win Active Member

    412
    +223
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Sounds pretty good to me. You either take God as He is and believe this is His show, or you take the door. But remember this passage in Ezekiel before you judge God for not being fair and merciful and the wicked not having a choice, and God not being tough on the sin of His people.


    7“Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. 8“When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. 9“But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.

    10“Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ 11“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ 12“And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’ 13“When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 14“But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16“None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.

    17“Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right. 18“When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19“But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.”
     
  4. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +12,160
    Christian
    Married
    I am not a Calvinist, but I will affirm that whatever God does is inherently moral and good because He is Himself the definition of "moral" and "good." There is no authority of "moral" and "good" higher that God and to which He must adhere.
     
  5. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married

    Yes, God does love people from around the world, how does what I say deny that? I could get into total depravity but I wanted to do a much more in depth bible study before I tackle the 5 points of Calvinism. But we can touch the basics of depravity. How can a person "believe" and accept Christ if God hasnt granted it to them? Christ even explains how salvation works in most of the middle-end of John 6.

    It is impossible for mankind to accept God on their own when they are stuck in their trespasses and sins they need to be made alive like Paul says in Romans (forgive me I dont remember where I dont have access to my bible gateway account it's on my hard drive that's being upgraded at the moment) and in Ephesians 2:4-7? God has to regenerate our nature to even be able to accept God on our own that's stated in scripture. The natural corrupt human heart humanity is born with since the fall hates God and his commandments and we want nothing to do with God. Yes, I'm aware there are nonreborn Christian's who claim they accept God. But notice how both scripture and history has ALL of them fall away. Both John and Christ put it pretty well. If it were true that mankind could accept God on their own it would take God out of the picture in God's salvation plan. Our salvation is 100% from God it's totally from God and without God we are nothing. That's what Christ taught, that's what the apostles taught.

    So yes, God so loved the world that he gave his son to die for them. So that whoever's is able to believe in Jesus Christ will not perish but have eternal life. Look at it in the reformed eyes there's no contradiction. But then again, each Christian looks at the verse in their own personal eyes.

    When I hear Theologians argue about what this verse apparently says in the Greek that's the closest translation they say. John 3:16 is not a complicated verse it doesnt say that every human who ever lived had the chance at salvation. If it did, why are there people so clearly lost in scripture? Why does scripture say that Pilate, Judas, Ciaphas and the people who shouted "crucify him!" All played a predestined role in God's plan for salvation? Christ said it would have been better if Judas hadn't been born. Why was it in God's plan for Judas to hang himself? Because Judas had his role to fill like every human on the planet. He was created for the sole purpose of betraying the son of God so that the son of God could be crucified and save us all. As were the other examples. Another example could be God telling the Israelites to kill everyone and everything in some of the places they conquered, God's judgement on Sodom, what happened to Sarah, the wicked people that didnt believe Noah and even if they had a chance at believing him God sealed the arc shut sealing their fate once and for all, did any of these have the chance at salvation? No, of course not. So how can John 3:16 mean that God loved the ENTIRE world? Think about it. Scripture directly says that God hated some people. He loved Jacob but hated Esau, he loved Abel but hated Cain ..,etc. It doesn't make God a monster to hate a part of his creation. Especially when Psalm 5:5 also says that theres a part of his creation that he hates. He hates sinners. Sin disgusts him. Its only due to his love and mercy that any of us got salvation at all.

    If God had no inclination of love or mercy, he would have hated us all for the wretched sinners that we are. That is an undeniable fact. But, he took pity on a vast majority of the world. I dont see why that takes away from his sovreignty. If anything it elevates it to its upmost core because the reformed believe and acknowledge that God predestined EVERYTHING that comes to pass.

    If it exists or will exist, God predestined it. It doesnt make us robots we do have a free will in a sense. Idk if you all are familiar with Piper but one of his most famous stories was from when he was an Arminian. He had a blue pen, dropped it on the ground and said "there God! I dropped the pen!" But he didnt understand predestination. Predestination doesnt mean that God moved the pen for you it means that you dropping the pen was predestined by God. God wanted you to do it to make a point later in life. And to make a famous story. Yes, you dropped the pen but that doesnt and cant mean that God didnt WANT you to drop it.

    Our lives are not controlled like robots. Mankind plans their own way, but God directs their steps.
     
  6. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    Exactly! The bible is chuck full of important people and the roles that God has for them. It wasnt just the Prophets, Moses, David, Solomon, Noah, and many other great and noble people of history that played a large written role in Gods plan of salvation. Or the Theologians that have been trying to decipher and teach the Bible over millenia. They were great and famous from around the world, and played a great role in God's plan of salvation. No it's not just them, each and every one of Abraham's descendants have a purpose in God's salvation plan. Not one of us are singled out. We all are great and have our roles to play. We may not be remembered by the world, we wont be written in scripture for the world to see, but we are important to our fellow brothers in sisters, especially to the ones whom we played our role to in the salvation of some of the ONE flock that God has promised us. One day we will not be divided, one day, we will be ONE. Idk about you guys? But, I'm massively looking forward to that. I'm sick of us being divided, I want us to be one like Christ prayed for us to be one before his crucifixion.

    One day, we will fully understand theology. It wont just be a theologians best guess at interpreting the Bible. We will fully understand why God does the things that he does. Right now, we just have to trust God and study the Bible. We each will come up with our own interpretations but like I've said. I think Reformed theology is the closest way in interpreting ALL of the bible and what it says.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  7. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    Amen brother! We wont fully understand why God does the things that he does. But one day, we will. Right now we just have to read scripture for what it says and trust what's in the bible. The bible says over and over again that there isnt a spec of evil in God. And one day we will be like him. I look forward to that moment.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,104
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So, tell me where Adam and Eve goats or sheep?

    I think you are confusing foreknown and predestined, which are both in scripture, but have different meanings.

    Lots of things are predestined by God since that is what He will do and sometimes when He will do it.



    If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

    God expressing himself in anthropomorphically to humans is to show why God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. The beings in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

    If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

    If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

    If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done” it (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

    It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

    My theory would have this:

    1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

    2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

    3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

    4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

    5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

    6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

    Issues:

    1. There is no scripture suggesting: God choice of a person’s life scenarios is the determining factor in who is saved and lost.

    2. There is nothing that proves God exists today in the future, past and present (that God is not limited by time).

    3. The idea of God setting up very specific scenarios so each mature adult will only choose one predetermined choice to accept or reject God’s charity, means the choice is not a free will choice made by the individual, but only gives the appearance of being a free will choice since due to the scenario God setup the person cannot chose to do something other than what God has set him up to choose. The deciding factor on the choice is God’s chosen scenario and not man’s free will choice, so that is not a free will choice .

    4. God setting up scenarios for each mature adult to accept or reject His charity in the form of forgiveness, allows the person to truly have a Godly type Love since we are taught by Christ: “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” So being forgiven (which includes accepting that forgiveness) of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love. The person has to make a truly free will choice to humbly accept God’s forgiveness and that will allow the Love to be truly his Love which will result in him Loving God.

    5. With other theories, God chose not to set it up for all humans to choose to accept His charity and be saved, so those lost would be God’s fault. This is not like God and Christ at all.

    6. While under my theory; God is doing (setting it up) to provide the very best opportunity for each lost mature adult to be saved if they are willing. The person who rejects God’s charity is not wanting Godly type love and does not like Godly type Love, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love. God wants them to go to heaven, but not if it will make them unhappy, so He allows them to choose, but it is not in the form of choosing between heaven and hell, but between His Love (charity) or not His Love (Not charity).

    Original sin

    This is no small subject and there appear to be verses on both sides of the issue.

    The Bible does not say after Adam and Eve sinned: “Man’s nature changed”, or “The sin of Adam and Eve was pasted on”. It does say the knowledge of good and evil came into the world and does not use the word “fall” to describe this.

    Is knowledge bad in and of itself?

    To refute the idea: “Children and anyone else that has not reached mature adulthood have not sinned yet and do not need saving, since they have done nothing wrong. They are in a safe condition.” Using:

    Rom 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God".

    “All have sinned”, so is Paul addressing an unborn child with that statement? Paul did not say we “all” inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, but all have (actually) sinned. It also does not say we inherited even a “sinful nature”, but talks about knowledge, so does knowledge=nature? “All” does not have to include everyone including unborn children, but could be referring to all of us (whom Paul is addressing at that time Christians who can understand his letter).

    If a child does not sin than they are in a safe state not needing saving, since they are not lost.

    Because Adam and Eve sinned prior to fulfilling their earthly objective, in what some would consider than they and as we can see all of us will need additional help in fulfilling our objective. God will do anything and allow anything to help willing individuals fulfill their objective and that everything includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell, and even allowing humans to sin.

    Babies or anyone who dies without the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective would enter heaven lacking Godly type Love, but would have a wonderful obedient child to wonderful parent type love.

    There is much more to say, but you can chew on this.
     
  9. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

    +1,876
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Others
    So if God saves people out of His mercy, then there's no "sovereign love", but if He leaves their salvation up to the on-again off-again caprices of human "Free Will" (which ain't all that killin' free, either) then that's "sovereign love". For God so loved the world that everyone who doesn't believe in him, for whatever reason, gets fried for all eternity. Talk about tough love!

    For my part, I think you have a really unteresting idea of what constitutes "love".

    And?
     
  10. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

    +9,999
    Non-Denom
    Out of curiosity, would you describe yourself as a monergist or as a syncretist?
     
  11. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married

    It's commonly believed that Adam and Eve and most of their direct offspring were saved. But, honestly there's no proof of their salvation in the Bible and this is purely guess work. I personally believe along those lines as well because Honestly? Salvation back then pre-flood and peri-flood was probably based on who lived a Godly life and who didn't as EVERYBODY knew about the true God of the universe. If you were a Godly man chosen by God for salvation you more than likely lived a life in worship of that God. Especially when the Bible says that the wicked worshiped other gods despite them knowing who the true God of the universe was. They knew because he and his angels were openly making appearances on the Earth, the evidence was all there that there was a God. And the true God, was God. You either chose to go with God and obeyed him and lived a Godly life or you didn't (again I think total depravity applies here too.) As for the wicked of the peri-flood times, they are said to have been clearly lost because apparently they were more wicked than even you or I could ever imagine. They not only didn't obey God but they made him so sick to his stomach that he allegedly wanted to erase the entire human race and start all over despite his promise to them.

    So when deciphering who's saved during those times I think you should ask yourself "Who in the Bible lived Godly lives back then?". Adam and Eve while sinners did in fact, love and obey God for their entire lives as is recorded in Genesis. As did most of their direct offspring. The only purely evil one that comes to mind is Cain. It's highly unlikely that God didn't and isn't going to punish Cain for his wickedness and disobedience to God.

    That's the quick way to explain salvation in those times. The long way is "Whoever believed in God's promise to send a deliverer was saved in those times" But, really I'm saying the exact same thing. Those that were able to live Godly lives, did in fact also have faith in the coming messiah.

    But also, in Acts 10:34-36 Peter gives us a clue about God's character in choosing people from the Nations. He chooses them based on "Who fears him and does what is right."

    Sorry for the huge reply to only part of your post but, I had a lot to say. That being said I cannot possibly reply to your entire post (I'm sorry It's longer than most of my posts lol) but, I am reading it and trying to respond to most of your key concerns/points. I'm NOT ignoring them all.

    Yes, in scripture it does say that God foreknew those who would obtain salvation. I 100% agree with you and I would have to tear Romans 8 out of my Bible to deny that Paul said that. However, we disagree on what foreknowledge actually means. You're using the Dictionary definition of Foreknowledge and I'm using the Biblical defitions. One example I can bring up to you (there are many places in the Bible where God's foreknowledge is used in the OT and NT but this is one example Calvinists bring up). In 1 Peter 1:20 it not only says that God foreknew those who would obtain salvation but also that he foreknew Christ from before the foundation of the world.

    How can God foreknow Christ from before the foundation of the world when he has been with him eternally? Not only has he known Christ eternally but Christ is a very part of him. It makes no sense to say "God foreknew that Christ would die on the cross for humanity from before the foundation of the world." That would be a major, "duh" and "Why did Peter tell us that? Because, we KNOW Christ's role in our salvation plan. It's very obvious that a God who knows all would know that Christ would die for us."

    The answer? God foreknew those who would obtain salvation and he foreknew Christ because God chose those who would obtain salvation and God chose Christ to do the act that would secure their salvation once and for all. Let me explain, God foreknew Christ simply because it was in God's plan to use Christ for our salvation. Again, it's a duh right? But, it's deeper than just the "Duh". His chosing Christ and us goes on a intimate level. God, "knew" us.

    Like, foreknowledge in the Bible is not "I saw that they would do what I tell them to do." because with God that's a very huge duh because his word will make ANYTHING happen. His very word has a 100% chance at success at having whatever he wants and desires happen. His very word is so powerful that it can and will create and do anything.

    Foreknowledge is more like "I knew them, and I had a deep personal relationship with them." God has a personal and intimate relationship with his son more deep than we will probably ever realize. He also has a personal and intimate relationship with us. Like he said to Jeremiah He "knew" us before we were even born and, he loved us with a deep and everlasting love that can probably never be fully understood by us. This is stated several times in scripture and it wasn't because these people like Jeremiah were "special" this is God's relationship with ALL of his Children. He loves no child more or less than the other, he shows no favoritism (Romans 2:11, Acts 10:34). But yet his love for us is so deep that only Christ fully understands God's love because he's a part of God.


    I explained God's predestination of everything a few posts after that one. But, I can touch on it again.

    No, our freewill choices cannot be changed. Our lives are set in stone. But yet, we do have freewill in a sense. We can one day choose to decide to kill someone. But since God knows everything he knew about that action and predestined the moves we will make after (trying to evade the law like today. Because you have a very high chance of being caught today if you murder someone) and what happens after (Being caught and sentenced to life in prison in this case). He also predestined the very act of murder in our lives to turn into something good (Like what happened to David). Another example of this happening would be like...

    say an Atheist kills someone. He gets caught, he gets sentenced to life in prison. But yet, while doing his time he finds Christ and ultimately salvation. This is one example of God turning something extremely horrible into something good. And also that person that he murdered has something good happen to him to. Like say, he gets to meet Christ and gets to fulfill his ultimate purpose in life. God's thoughts and actions ALWAYS turn into what God wants for that particular person.

    Our actions that are predestined are so not based on God controlling us like a puppet. But merely by the fact that before God created us, he knew every single thing about humanity. Every single move we will make and he planned accordingly. While yes, we do have the freewill to change what will happen, we don't because that's our life and our future that God spoke. But our actions are predestined, our rewards, everything are predestined. So yes, our (or maybe my) understanding of predestination is a little like the arminian one in this case. However, there is one major difference. We believe that God also predestined the salvation of man and hardened those who would not obtain salvation. One major in the Bible experience of this is what happened to Pharaoh.

    But, that's how God can promise us eternal life. If it were not so, he couldn't promise eternal life. Let me explain, God knows that for eternity past, his new creation of us will be 100% perfect. If we sin even ONCE we cannot be promised that same future can we? Because then God would have to punish us for that action. God promises eternal life and no fall ever again because one simply won't happen for all eternity. Even though we do have the free will to sin again God, we won't. Even though angels have the ability to rebel again, they won't.

    I used Piper's famous pen story as a real life example also. Every action we make has a purpose whether it's getting dressed in the morning (Not being naked all day in public) or... anything really. No matter how small your actions have a purpose and you always take the path and make the decision that God wants for you.

    When I came to Christ I knew from day one that it had no doing of my own. I didn't make the decision, God did. God gets all the glory, I get none. If it were up to me I would have stayed an Atheist my entire life because I was perfectly content with that life. I came to Christ at exactly the right second. God wanted me to later study Theology. I studied because of God, not because of my own desires. I hated the Bible and Theology in general because it was "unamerican" and "archaic". There's loads of examples everybody could give from their own lives. While you might not get the sense like I do that "That's God doing it not me." It's still God doing it.


    Okay, next topic since this reply is quite long and I have a few more people I want to get to.

    There's actually plenty of scripture that says that God chooses the actions of mankind and therefore one can interpret that God chose the salvation of people. Also, there's places where God and the Apostles actually said it. There's the end of Matthew Chapter 25 or just read Revelation. The book of Revelation talks a lot about God's elect and the role that they play. And about "Those not found in the book of life" I also brought up Acts 13:48 I believe in my OP. If I didn't, I'm the worst Calvinist ever :p. Ephesians 1 talks a lot about God's election of individuals and then there's John 6. Christ talks a lot about how God saves from verse 37 on. And then there's John 10:26. There's actually plenty of strong scriptural evidence for the theology of our forefathers.

    Anyway, that's it. I'm getting a headache. I hope I didn't miss too much of your post. If I did post it again and I'll try to address it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  12. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    I also might be speaking a bit "Arminian" because I've only been studying Reformed Theology for about a half a year (Even though I've talked Reformed for years. Just didn't know what it was.) I'm not a" fullblown" Calvinist who has been studying Reformed Theology his whole life I'm pretty much a fresh convert if you will. But, I will probably be a Calvinist for the rest of my life. The scriptural evidence for Reformed Theology is just far too strong for me to change sides anywhere else.

    Literally from Genesis to Revelation there are verses found that support Reformed Theology. I have many of them highlighted in my Bible Gateway but I have several thousand highlighted verses. I cannot just go through them all everyday anymore and meditate on them. I really need to clean my account out lol.
     
  13. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

    +9,999
    Non-Denom
    Although many friends of mine consider me to hold to Reformed theology because i am monergist in my soteriology, i reject various aspects of Reformed theology such as the sprinkling of unbelieving infants. as being baptism. It is vital to understand that Reformed theology encompasses far more than soteriology.
     
  14. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,104
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That is unsupported speculation on your part, for as you say: “this is purely guess work”.

    Does this not sound to you, like: God does not know what is going to happen in man’s future, since you said: “ probably based on who lived a Godly life”, “You either chose to go with God and obeyed him and lived a Godly life or you didn't”, “he allegedly wanted to erase the entire human race” and “It's highly unlikely that God didn't and isn't going to punish Cain”?

    Did Adam and Eve have free will and if not, why did they sin?
    I fully agree: “He chooses them based on "Who fears him and does what is right."”, but what is the very first step in this process, since you first have to Love with Godly type Love to obey?

    Science over the last 100 years has shown with lots of experiments: “time to be relative” and not experiment has shown time not to be relative, so do you feel time is relative?

    Scripture seems to support the idea of God being omnipresent, but would that not also include God being omnipresent throughout time, not limited by time?

    Would God at the end of man’s time, know historically everything that happened, all the choices, all the decisions and all the thoughts of all humans throughout time?

    If God is not controlled and limited by time: could God at the end of time communicate within Himself to Himself at the beginning of time the complete history of all humans?

    Can history that has happened be changed, since just redoing events does not mean the first time the event accrued did not also happen, even if God was the only one to know of it?

    If this is true, then the God at the beginning of human time, knows historically everything that has and will happen historically throughout human history, but does knowing historically what will happen (from man’s perspective) mean the choices made (and will be made as far as man is concerned) not to be autonomous free will choices of man?

    If this is true: then God’s historic foreknowledge itself does not mean humans cannot make some very limited free will choices?

    Part of man’s history does not exclude God from intervening at times to do stuff, which God would know (predestine) about from the beginning of human time, also.

    You say: “I'm using the Biblical definitions”, but tell me how knowing all of human history to the end of human time not fitting the Biblical definition of “foreknowledge”? Every thing has happened for God at the end of time.

    I fully believe God is very much involved in most of our choices, but in order for humans to fulfill their earthly objective, they have got to make some very limited autonomous free will choices. None of these choices will be noble choices, honorable, worthy, righteous, glorious or holy, since that is beyond human nature and would mean man was slightly worthy of some good, when he is not worthy of anything. The initial free will “choice” every mature adult gets to make is: to wimp out, give up and surrender or be macho, hang in there, take the punishment you fully deserve, pay the piper and be a good soldier. Surrendering to your enemy while you still hate your enemy is not joining your enemy, but you are just humbly willing to accept pure undeserved charity from your enemy. You can still feel deserving of a torturous death for your previous war crimes, but you have illogical hope enough to trust (believe) your enemy might have an unbelievable Love.

    The choice to “obey” come after your enemy showers you with unbelievable wonderful gifts and it is the result of now, have a huge gratitude type of Love (Godly type of Love), which now allows you to obey.

    Paul describes all humans as being children of God and we also find all humans being in the image of God, so what limits God’s Love to only some humans? Who did Christ show He did not Love? Who do you not Love?
    Like I said above: God is very much involved in making most of the decisions for humans, but mature adults just need to make a few very limited choices to fulfill His objective, so to show how God makes the choices sometimes does not mean God always makes the choices.
     
  15. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

    +2,594
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    I apologize guys for taking so long to get back to you. I've been swamped lately. But I should have some free time tomorrow morning hopefully to respond. I'm heading to bed very soon. Good night.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +4,107
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    arguments for extreme 4 and 5 point Calvinism often ignore the Bible fact that God sovereignly chose a few things that do not fit Calvinism. And in that context of those choices - then He cannot simply follow them up with "arbitrary selection" between one person and the next.

    Once God commits Himself by His Word to a certain position He can no longer act at random or whim and still be true to that Word.

    Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"
    2 Peter 3 "God is not willing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"
    1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
    1 John 2:2 Christ is "the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World"
    John 3:16 "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave"... yes ... "really".

    And what is the result?

    Well... it is not "We Beg GOD to please make you be a christian" in 2 Cor 5... no -- instead it is "We beg YOU to BE reconciled to God"
     
Loading...