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It's amazing how the most horrible thing can happen

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by VCR-2000, Dec 3, 2021.

  1. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, well God's ordaining the world to operate as "anything goes in nature" is a blessing and curse at the same time. God is the one that still allows it so, but it is people's fault like you say that they choose to commit these horrible things. Still, the scenario is frustrating and unfair.

    Would you not have liked if God created this differently among the millions of infinite possibilities that he could've made us operate? Could he not have created a situation, for this world, where it was not possible to have knowledge of sin, but still having freedom?

    I am worn out from dealing with these abstractions.
     
  2. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes the world is full of evil and unjust acts and deeds, but what do you expect from a world that does not acknowledge God or seek to follow him and his ways?

    God is not a sugar daddy granting our wishes and bribing officals to smooth our ways.

    We are responcible, moral, intelligent and spiritual beings and we will face Gods judgement. Judgement for our deeds, for our beliefs and will recieve praise or punishment.

    Where do you stand regarding Jesus do you believe in him and act on that belief or are you content to ignore him and accept that as John 3:18 says you are already condemned?
     
  3. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what a sinless world would be like? That I am a fellow sinner enables me to have compassion on those who sin against me bc I can relate. A sinless world is an interesting concept. Idk the answer.

    Edit: CS Lewis created unfallen worlds in his space trilogy. Might want to give them a go if you haven't read the series already
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
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  4. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Well-Known Member

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    Even those who acknowledge God and seek to follow him sin against one another. I don't see how longing for a sinless world as the OP does is turning God into a sugar daddy.

     
  5. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Well-Known Member

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    Also, I hope God's judgement is restorative; showing us our faults and bringing sinners into repentant fellowship with each other.
     
  6. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    This world is truly tragic and death bound. Within this we have to look for whatever is good etc. to help ourselves & others ( Philippians 4:8). To clarify things, we have the Lord’s commandments ( Romans 13:8-10 etc.) otherwise we would implode. If we see that this last strain of where it is possible to know right from wrong ( Micah 6:8) and that it is from the Lord we have this ( Colossians 1:15-18). It is from here we can put our hope & trust in His promise of overcoming sorrow ( John 16:33).
     
  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    k .... well it's basically like this ....

    We were created in the image of God ... ok what is that image?

    That image is Love .... what is Love ... putting others before self and delighting in one another.

    Jesus prayed that we would have the same relationship with the Father that He has ... what is that relationship? Delighting in one another.

    Now ... in your mind imagine a world without WOE (difficult to do) do you want to live in that world?

    Jesus is our example in everything .... the way He lived His life reflects the way we were originally created to live. In the new world there will be no pain and sorrow .... so in a world less all the woes .... there won't be any woes.

    It's not a matter of I need to do this and that to "get" to heaven (that is works) .... rather .... do I see the true character of God and being pure love and do I want to be transformed back into that image and live eternally with Him?

    If so, then we receive Him He helps us to be conformed back into that image now (over the course of our earthly lifetime, by His sanctifying grace) thereby helping us to be "fit" for heaven ..... that is .... are we a "match" for that lifestyle? Do we willingly want to live that way?
     
  8. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God has given us the answer to a sinfull world and it is up to us to obey God.
    Wanting God to act to change how the world is, without any effort from us is to want God to fix our problems from the past, those we cause now and in the future, because we don't want to change.
     
  9. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As hebres 9:27 says man is destined to die once and then comes judgement.

    Today while one is alive, is the day of salvation.
     
  10. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure the OP wants to change and that he is just as weary of his sins as he is of everyone else's. I could be wrong, he'll need to correct me if so. He's looking to God for the answer and that is what he's suppose to do.

     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  11. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Well-Known Member

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    There are people I love very much whom I will not be reconciled to in this life and there are things which need to be revealed by God that can't be right now. I long for the truth to be known but only if it means restoration and repentance. I don't wish for anyone to be condemned.
     
  12. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Prove they are innocent. Christians believe that no one is innocent, all are guilty and no innocent suffers in the least...at least, most do.
     
  13. 1watchman

    1watchman Overseer Supporter

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    Yes, God is always in control; and in that He allows man to do as he chooses in the flesh. If he does not want to receive God's "..so greart salvation" in His "..beloved Son": the Lord Jesus (as John 3 and John 14) then he will act in the flesh and thus suffer consequences for ignoring our Creator. One needs to read and obey the four Gospels in the Bible!
     
  14. Alistair_Wonderland

    Alistair_Wonderland Active Member

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    While I do not claim to fully understand, this much I know: free will cannot exist if God forces others to do things. The vast majority of problems in this world are caused by people; if God were to force them not to do their evil deeds, He would be denying us our free will.
    Free will means the ability to have a choice. To have a choice means the possibility of choosing incorrectly. To make incorrect choices results in mistakes. Mistakes result in harm. Harm results in pain. Thusly, pain is the price of free will.

    Keep in mind, the apparent dormancy of God is in part due to the dormancy of His hands, a.k.a. the Church. Too many of us... sadly, myself included... sit idly by, convincing ourselves that we are helpless even though the Bible says "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." The phrase "evil triumphs when good men do nothing" is quite a reality.

    As for why God does not smite evil people, it is the same reason He forgives us. We like to think some people are better than others, but this is not how the universe works. If an arrow misses its target, how close it came to that target is irrelevant. Anything short of perfection makes us part of the problem.
    The beauty of God's salvation is that it is unconditional. He loves even the most evil people, and wants to see them change. God compares us to His children, and even though some of us may be more obedient, a good parent does not love one child more than another, no matter how they act.

    Also, death is an inevitability. Whatever exists beyond, be that heaven or merely a lack of being, nullifies all that happens in life. This is, as I put it to a friend, our school days, and one day we will graduate. School is not the real world, but it trains us for it.

    Finally, your reality is what you choose to accept. If believing in God and that all things work together for good gives people the strength to overcome their own trials, then regardless of if Christianity is merely a delusion or not, the effect is one that is positive.
    Do you want to know the truth? Ask the sky. Whoever is listening will reply (albeit perhaps not in the way you expect), and if nobody answers, there is your answer. Put the ball in God's park; if He is truly perfect, He won't fumble it, and if He isn't perfect, He isn't God. The only think you have to do is keep an open mind; God likes to throw curveballs, so the answer you're looking for might not be the answer you get.
    The entire book of Job is one long commentary on human suffering, and God's reply is to show all the wonders of nature, and more importantly, how everything works together and has a place, despite its immense complexity. Job's story is often misread as one of "shut up and obey God", when in reality, God's message is this:
    "I can't explain everything now; that would defeat the purpose of your schooling. But one day, you will know. And you will be happy you overcame."
    Regardless of if it is truth or delusion, faith has often given people the strength to attempt what others would not, and to overcome suffering that nobody expected one could overcome. That alone bears merit.
    I will continue to believe in God, and though I have often fought against Him, this stands out; in a finite world, where all things eventually wither and perish, and time destroys all, either all mankind is delusional for assuming there is something worth living for, or the mere existence of our hope is the proof that there is indeed something more.
     
  15. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Consider this and see if it lines up with reality.
    God allows anything to happen. This is a free running creation of the possible. There is a thing called the course of nature. It has been running since the dawn of creation. When God created a thing, He awarded it the sovereign right to exist and to interact with everything else that exists. He does not have to makes things happen.
    Otherwise, creation is tooling along according to the ever-present course of nature.
    Can He intervene whenever He want to? Of course, all in accordance with His word and nature.

    For instance:
    A rock sits embedded in the side of a hill.
    Winter comes and ice and snow surround rock.
    In the Spring the ice and snow melts.
    The runoff dislodges the rock, and it rolls down the hill.
    The rock bonks you on the head.

    God could intervene, but in this instance, He does not.
    This all happened without God's endorsement or direct actions. His involvement was limited to the fact He created all the elements involved and allowed them to interact together. This is the "default" value in all creation. Things are allowed to happen.

    Billions of like events happen every day to everyone around the world. Sometimes God gets involved. But it is self-evident that many times He does not. He just allows nature to take its course. Accidents happen.
    This is what we are seeing around us every day.
     
  16. Wyatt L. Aston

    Wyatt L. Aston Member

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    He works in the hearts and minds of men through the Holy Spirit. If you want to know God you need a Savior because the world is as you said.

    Hey VCR - That shows that you were made in the image of God because you recognize that things are not right with the world. There is a standard of morality and that comes from the mind of God.
     
  17. Wyatt L. Aston

    Wyatt L. Aston Member

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    Wrong.

    Just because He lets something happen doesn't mean Hes not in control. The fact that He's able to let something happen implies that he is in control. He holds everything together by the power of his might, which means Hes in control of everything. He holds all the molecules and atoms of your body together so you are able to sit there and try to debunk Him and I am able to sit here and defend the truth.
    You have free will. Adam had free will. He will not force you to do anything, otherwise you wouldn't be free. You know if your making right or wrong choices because there is a standard of absolute morality which comes from the mind of God.

    Do bad things happen? Yes. Thats why we need a Savior.

    There are some things God can't do but that doesn't mean Hes not in control of everything.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  18. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    If I am driving a car I am controlling it.
    If I let loose of the steering wheel and take my foot off the pedals, I am no longer in control. Basic logic and English.
    Let me illustrate an obvious scenario.
    God created a rock, a hill, gravity, and set time and the seasons in place.
    The rock is embedded on the side of the hill.
    Over time the seasons take place. Ice, snow, melting, water running off. All this is taking place according to the course of nature that God has put in place.
    By and by the ice and snow melt. The water running down the hill dislodges the rock. The rock rolls down the hill and bonks someone on the head. We term this to be an accident. Much like when an ax head comes off its handle and kills someone. It is an accident. It was not intended. Nobody, not even God orchestrated these events. It is simple fate and circumstance occurring in time. Could God have stopped the rock or ax head in their path? Yes! Could He have prevented them from even starting on their paths? Yes, certainly. Does He? Obviously not. Look at the virtually infinite number of accidents that carry through to their unhappy result. That a benevolent and controlling God does not have His hand on the steering wheel cannot be more obvious. None of these things could or would happen if He did. We can strain at words and twist logic all we want. But God is not doing these things. The creation has a course of nature and it is rolling along according to the laws that He put into place at creation. And that creation is in a fallen/falling state. That is what is happening in the world since the fall of Adam.
     
  19. Wyatt L. Aston

    Wyatt L. Aston Member

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    Sounds like your not fully convinced that the bible is Gods word.

    If God is not in control who is?

    Just because God doesn't do something doesn't mean he cant do something. God doesn't make rocks speak, doesn't mean He cant.

    If the world was a perfect place, Jesus wouldn't have had to come in the first place.

    If you want to take your hand off the steering wheel and kill your self that's your choice, I wouldn't recommend it and hopefully by the logic god gave you, you would know that its a bad choice to make. And the axe thing, I don't know what account your referring to nor all the people involved, only God knows.

    The question is: is God in control of everything?

    "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
    Ephesians 1:11

    "He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Hebrews 1:3

    "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." Mathew 10:29

    "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things." Isaiah 45:7

    God is not like man. To say you know God Isn't in control of everything is like saying your know more than He does.

    The reason I bring this up is because there might be other people looking for hope that might be led astray by that claim. They need to know he's in control in order to have hope. If god wasn't in control there would be no hope of salvation because salvation is a miracle.

    He knows the end from the beginning, he holds the universe in his hand, he is outside of time and space, he created time and space. God is in control of everything. Just because he doesn't do something doesn't mean he cant do something. The only reason the universe keeps working the way it does is because he is in control of it because He created it.

    Do you know why he doesn't intervene in everything? When you do let us know.
    When the laws of physics stop working then I'll agree with you that God isn't in control.
     
  20. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Thanks for the scriptures.
    None of them say anything about God being the source of evil in our lives. Of course God is sovereign and could intervene if He desired. But it is obvious, by just looking around, that He does not. Why not, well that is His business. It is our job to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.
    Meanwhile, if we are going to claim ignorance as to why things happen the way they do, let's claim ignorance on the side of God and His goodness and mercy.
    Instead of saying:
    "Evil happened to me and since God is in control of everything, He must have done it. I don't know why He did this evil to me."
    Let's say:
    "Evil happened to me but because He is good and does not change, He did not do it. I don't know why this evil happened, but it was not Him."
    I realize some people like to ascribe evil things to God. It makes them feel like He is dealing with them and is involved in their lives. But God's involvement with our lives comes in the form of redemption, salvation, healing, deliverance, and blessings.

     
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