It's 2019, not 1519.

[lostinthought]

Before I begin, I'd like to state that I'm an Atheist.

As far as I can remember, although my parents were Theists, I have never been one. The thought of a god seems so improbably to me. It just makes no logical sense. As far as I am able to recall, I've always felt that a god was illogical and improbable.

I remember this one time at school I told one of the boys, that I considered a friend, that I didn't believe in god. I'm sure that there was a valid reason for telling him this but that is now lost in the mists of time. That must have been way back in the late 50s when the world was a very different place and when most people in the UK believed in god.

Anyways, later that day, the teacher asked the class to put up their hands if they believed in god. Obviously, my soon-to-be-ex-friend had snitched on me. No matter, my hand remained firmly down. Even in those days, I was a rebel.

The teacher noticed that only my hand remained down.

I was asked to come and stand in front of the class, caned on the hand and then made to stand in the corner with my back to the class until home time.

I remember the incident as though it were yesterday because it was the one and only time that I was ever punished by a teacher since, actually, I was a very keen and studious student.

The incident made no difference one way or the other. I didn't believe in god because it was illogical. Logic doesn't change. Neither has my attitude to religion.

I am a member of several Atheist forums. We welcome Theists unreservedly although we reserve the right to question the Theist's beliefs. Unlike this forum, full access to all of our threads are open to both Theists and Atheists alike. Generally, Theists are free to criticise us Atheists in whatever manner they choose, including the use of profanity. You see, from our perspective, truth has nothing to fear from inquiry. Even though christianity is supposedly about peace, love, understanding, acceptance and tolerance, it would appear that Atheists are far more tolerant of Theists than are Theists of Atheists, given that there are topics on this forum that are only open to christians.

At one time, drive-by Theists frequently dropped into our forums but they rarely stayed any length of time when they realised that we Atheists had able minds and used them in a logical and inquiring manner. Fools we weren't.

However, I can't quite remember when we last encountered a Theist. Our forums have become as quiet as the grave. Therefore, I though that I would drop in on you guys and gals for a spot of healthy debate.

Let's start at the top, if I may:

If one begins with the premise: I don't know whether a god exists or not and one then follows the evidence in a logical and honest manner, one does not end up at the conclusion: There is a god.

This therefore begs the question: How and why do people become Theists and, given the lack of evidence and recent scientific research, remain so.

 

[Basil the Great]

Welcome to CF and I hope that you enjoy your time here. Most people are probably Theists because that is how they were raised. As far as evidence, it seems to me that there is slightly more evidence for the existence of a Supreme Being, than against, but this is simply a matter of one's viewpoint. One cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. It all comes down to faith and whether or not one chooses to believe in Him. When I look up at the sky at night and see an untold number of stars, I find it hard to believe that a Creator is not behind it all. Have a great day. I need to get to sleep now, as I was up all night.

 

[dayhiker]

Welcome lost in thought.

Its interesting to me that as far back as I can remember it has been completely logical to me that the only explanation of existence is God.
I do agree with you that I have found atheist to be well educated and a respectful group.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Contrary to scientific conclusions special creation is the only logical origin of the material universe, most notably life. The TOE may be a carefully constructed (strong) delusion, by God, to keep unbelievers in the dark, for the time being.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Before I begin, I'd like to state that I'm an Atheist.

As far as I can remember, although my parents were Theists, I have never been one. The thought of a god seems so improbably to me. It just makes no logical sense. As far as I am able to recall, I've always felt that a god was illogical and improbable.

I remember this one time at school I told one of the boys, that I considered a friend, that I didn't believe in god. I'm sure that there was a valid reason for telling him this but that is now lost in the mists of time. That must have been way back in the late 50s when the world was a very different place and when most people in the UK believed in god.

Anyways, later that day, the teacher asked the class to put up their hands if they believed in god. Obviously, my soon-to-be-ex-friend had snitched on me. No matter, my hand remained firmly down. Even in those days, I was a rebel.

The teacher noticed that only my hand remained down.

I was asked to come and stand in front of the class, caned on the hand and then made to stand in the corner with my back to the class until home time.

I remember the incident as though it were yesterday because it was the one and only time that I was ever punished by a teacher since, actually, I was a very keen and studious student.

The incident made no difference one way or the other. I didn't believe in god because it was illogical. Logic doesn't change. Neither has my attitude to religion.

I am a member of several Atheist forums. We welcome Theists unreservedly although we reserve the right to question the Theist's beliefs. Unlike this forum, full access to all of our threads are open to both Theists and Atheists alike. Generally, Theists are free to criticise us Atheists in whatever manner they choose, including the use of profanity. You see, from our perspective, truth has nothing to fear from inquiry. Even though christianity is supposedly about peace, love, understanding, acceptance and tolerance, it would appear that Atheists are far more tolerant of Theists than are Theists of Atheists, given that there are topics on this forum that are only open to christians.

At one time, drive-by Theists frequently dropped into our forums but they rarely stayed any length of time when they realised that we Atheists had able minds and used them in a logical and inquiring manner. Fools we weren't.

However, I can't quite remember when we last encountered a Theist. Our forums have become as quiet as the grave. Therefore, I though that I would drop in on you guys and gals for a spot of healthy debate.

Let's start at the top, if I may:

If one begins with the premise: I don't know whether a god exists or not and one then follows the evidence in a logical and honest manner, one does not end up at the conclusion: There is a god.

This therefore begs the question: How and why do people become Theists and, given the lack of evidence and recent scientific research, remain so.

It's simple. Science does not know everything. I'm from the 50's. My dad was an aggressive atheist. I got born again at the age of 20. I already had fair idea that God was real. I had a prayer answered when I was 12 years old. It so spooked me that I decided it had to be coincidence, in spite knowing that the answer was so specific that it had to be God.
Some people see creation and yet do not see God. It is impossible for me to believe that there is no God, especially now. I know God and I have known Him for 48 years. I see evidence for a Creator all around me. Somehow other people can look at what is obvious to me and yet they come to an entirely different conclusion. You wonder how people can believe in God. I am amazed that they do not believe.
Logic and reason lead people to entirely different conclusions many times. Logic and reason are useless in many issues of life. Loyalty is often unreasonable. People support causes that are pointless. Many people believe lies to be truth and truth to be lies. If all the geniuses in the world were laid end to end, they still would not come to a conclusion. Logic and reason are vastly overrated, primarily because few people have access to all the facts. Explaining God to many people is like trying to describe the Grand Canyon to someone born blind. And that is the heart of the matter. Man suffers from spiritual blindness. Until his eyes are opened, he cannot see God or know God.

 

[public hermit]

I don't know whether a god exists or not

Welcome to CF and thank you for your candid statements.

Strictly speaking, neither theists nor atheists know whether God exists or not. They either believe or don't believe God exists. I suppose there is also a middle ground, i.e. agnosticism.

If one side or the other did know, in the strongest sense of the term, then those who believed otherwise would be outliers that the vast majority would consider unreasonable. But, that is not the case. At this point in time, there are many who believe and many who don't. So, we debate what we can only believe or not believe. Whatever the case, when we talk about the existence of God we are not talking about a being that is subject to scrutiny by the usual methods we come to know a thing. Which, brings us to logic.

I am curious about your use of the word "logic." What logical argument would you present for the non-existence of God? Give us premises and a conclusion, and then we can talk about logic.

Fair warning: If it is your intention is to present some logical form of the Problem of Evil, it has been done and found wanting. J.L. Mackie, an atheist philosopher, developed the strongest form of the logical problem of evil in 1955. In 1982, he conceded that the Christian philosopher, Alvin Plantinga, had successfully defeated the logical problem of evil with his free-will defense.

At this point, the next runner up is the Evidential Problem of Evil. William Rowe is the main proponent of this line of argument against theism. This particular argument is much more resilient than the strictly logical problem, and continues to be debated. But, it is no longer a debate using strict logic, it's a debate about probabilities.

At any rate, I look forward to your contribution.

Alvin Plantinga's free-will defense - Wikipedia
https://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-evi/#H6

 

[OldWiseGuy]

To the thread title. Mankind seems to be as ignorant in many ways as they were in 1519. The controversy over the existence of God is small potatoes compared to the great issues of the day. It should be noted however, that the solutions to virtually all humanity's problems are found in the Christian bible. No science book can make this claim.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Welcome lost in thought.

Its interesting to me that as far back as I can remember it has been completely logical to me that the only explanation of existence is God.
I do agree with you that I have found atheist to be well educated and a respectful group.

Depends on which atheists you talk. I was raised by an atheist dad. He was brilliant, self taught many things, but the opposite of respectful.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I didn't believe in god because it was illogical.

YOU do not believe in God because you do not know God. I have no doubt at all that as you claim your understanding of God is illogical. I am sure that I do not believe in the exact same God that you do not believe in. Just as I am sure you do to know the God I know. The only god atheists know is the god of this world: satan. Which is a strange twist because he is very real. Even though you claim not to believe i him.

If it is your intention is to present some logical form

Can not use logic with atheist because according to the Bible they have a reprobate mind. People need to be renewed in their mind and born again before they can begin to understand.

 

[joshua 1 9]

No science book can make this claim.

Science and the Bible go hand in hand. Science gives us evidence for the Bible and the Bible gives us evidence for Science.

 

[Josheb]

If one begins with the premise: I don't know whether a god exists or not and one then follows the evidence in a logical and honest manner, one does not end up at the conclusion: There is a god.

I completely disagree. Theists and non-theists look at exactly the same evidence and simply reach different conclusions, and that debate has raged since there were words to have it.

This therefore begs the question: How and why do people become Theists and, given the lack of evidence and recent scientific research, remain so.

Why is a lack of scientific research relevant? Science isn't capable of determining God's existence.

Pick up a copy of Francis Schaeffer's trilogy and give it a read.

 

[lostinthought]

Welcome to CF and I hope that you enjoy your time here. Most people are probably Theists because that is how they were raised.

Agreed, but being raised a Theist isn't a good reason to remain one.

As far as evidence, it seems to me that there is slightly more evidence for the existence of a Supreme Being, than against, but this is simply a matter of one's viewpoint.

I am absolutely gob-smacked by this statement. AFAIK, not one shred of evidence for the existence of the god of the bible, or any other god for that matter, has ever been produced. If there ever has, you and I would not be having this conversation. If there is evidence for the existence of any god, I would like to hear it. By the way, so would the Nobel committee because, if you have such evidence and present it, you will, I have no doubt, be rewarded with a Nobel prize. In addition, if you present such evidence of a god to James Randi, or his committee, you will receive $1 million.

One cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. It all comes down to faith and whether or not one chooses to believe in Him.

Do you want to be in a position where you believe as much as possible what is true and reject as much as possible what is false? I know I do. Faith is one of the least reliable methods for arriving at the truth that I am aware of. Why would any logical and honest thinker use faith to determine what is true and what it false. To do so is patently absurd.

When I look up at the sky at night and see an untold number of stars, I find it hard to believe that a Creator is not behind it all. Have a great day. I need to get to sleep now, as I was up all night.

When I look up at the stars I see natural scientific laws at work.

When I look up at the stars, it convinces me that it is not the work of any god, including the one that you seem to believe in, unless that god is perverse and malevolent. The universe is an extremely hostile place, especially to mankind. If you don't believe me, take a trip into outer space without benefit of an expensive space suit and see how long you last. In fact, most of the universe consists of empty space at a temperature of 2.73 degrees Kelvin, which, by any standard, is a might cold and definitely not conducive to any form of life, including Human. Take a trip to our nearest star, the SUN, and see what happens when you get too close. Don't go too close to a supernova, there's a strong possibility that you will end up dead. Indeed, you can stay on this planet and observe what a precarious life we Humans actually have. The dinosaurs are no more because of a cataclysmic event here on Earth (thought to be the result of a large meteorite hitting it). If a god really exists, I would have thought that the good people, in what was Pompeii, are non-too-pleased with the god entity. About 71% of the Earth is covered by water. This is not a substance which man can breath.

Why would any god, let alone your god, create Man and then place him in such a hostile environment pray tell?

If I were you, I would go to sleep. Given your post, it would appear that you need to.

Night night.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Science and the Bible go hand in hand. Science gives us evidence for the Bible and the Bible gives us evidence for Science.

Science is a little short on moral guidance.

 

[AvisG]

If one begins with the premise: I don't know whether a god exists or not and one then follows the evidence in a logical and honest manner, one does not end up at the conclusion: There is a god.

I am a veteran of many atheist forums, including the Forum for Active and Critical Thinking Skills (F.A.C.T.S.) back when it was the premier atheist-dominated forum on the Internet as well as the current atheist-dominated Religion & Spirituality forum at the massive City Data site. Your characterization of the attitude of atheists toward theists is simply false. When atheists are comfortably on their home turf, there is no meaningful interaction with theists. The mindless anger and ridicule are the same whenever one group of dogmatic fundamentalists (in this instance, atheist dogmatic fundamentalists) interacts with another. Atheism as practiced on the internet is just one more mindless fundamentalist religion.

Your statement that I have quoted above is nonsense. Alvin Plantinga, the premier epistemologist of the twentieth century (recognized as such by secular philosophers as well as religious ones), believes there is a god. In every branch of science and academia, substantial percentages of professionals are theists even though this is contrary to the dominant naturalistic/materialistic paradigm. These people do not suddenly abandon their critical-thinking skills when it comes to metaphysics. You are talking through your hat, without (it appears to me) a sufficient base of knowledge to support the blanket statements you make.

The threshold question is whether the naturalistic/paradigm is correct. Even substantial numbers of atheists do not believe it is. Increasingly, the best work in physics and neuroscience points toward it almost certainly being incorrect. This opens the door to non-atheistic answers - including theism and even Christianity - to the ultimate metaphysical questions. A vast realm of evidence, both anecdotal and laboratory evidence, from human experience and psi research further bolsters the conclusion that the naturalistic paradigm is incorrect. Indeed, work at the highest levels in physics and neuroscience suggests that the naturalistic paradigm is 180 degrees off-base - i.e., the fundamental "stuff" of reality is consciousness, not material, and the correct paradigm is some version of idealism.

Once one abandons the naturalistic paradigm, the question is simply whether theism provides the best explanation for reality. A new book by Stephen Meyer coming out in April, THE RETURN OF THE GOD HYPOTHESIS, will address why the best current thinking from a variety of academic and scientific fields (including, of course, Intelligent Design), points toward theism as a viable explanation and perhaps the most compelling explanation. I've read an early version and believe it might be eye-opening to you.

People such as myself are "following the evidence" honestly and to the best of our ability. I have been doing this for more than 50 years, and I would wager that my familiarity with the best evidence, pro and con, exceeds yours by a very wide margin. I don't make nonsensical and conclusory statements like yours. I don't suggest theists "have able minds and use them in a logical and inquiring manner" while atheists do not, or that "one who follows the evidence in an honest and logical manner" must inevitably end up a theist.

If your attitude toward theism hasn't changed since you were a schoolboy in the late fifties - I was one then, too - I suspect it isn't based on logic and evidence at all. Put your "logic and evidence" up against that of the best theistic scholars and scientists and you will very quickly feel like a schoolboy again. Surround yourself with cheerleaders for atheism, of course, and you will find the comforting, appealing and emotionally satisfying landing spot I suspect you have found - but don't delude yourself that this has anything to do with logic and evidence.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Let's start at the top, if I may:

If one begins with the premise: I don't know whether a god exists or not and one then follows the evidence in a logical and honest manner, one does not end up at the conclusion: There is a god.

This therefore begs the question: How and why do people become Theists and, given the lack of evidence and recent scientific research, remain so.

All I know is why I became a theist and why I then became an atheist. I grew up in a household that was indifferent to religion. My parents went to mass on Easter and Christmas to satisfy my grandparents. I had no opinion about god, didn't care. When I was in my 20's I started to read the Bible out of curiosity and then met my wife who was a Christian. Over the next 6 years or so I studied and became a Christian when I was 32. The reason I was convinced was because I was heavily influenced by my wife and her family and I only looked at the apologists side of things. I was not taught how to know what is true or not. I did not have the skills to know how to determine truth. I was convinced by apologist arguments because I never looked at the contrary arguments. I believe this is many believers experience.

Fast forward 18 years or so and I started to question Gods morality which led to questioning the validity of gods existence. I started to study epistemology and philosophy and this led to my understanding that I did not have valid reasons for my belief. During this time a person challenged me to study evolution so I did. What I found with my new found skepticism is that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. This led to my throwing out the bible as actual truth. All of this made me unconvinced that god exists.

We need to teach our children how to think, how to determine what is true over what is not true. We can be convinced of anything if we accept bad evidence. Christians should be on board with this as well.

 

[AvisG]

In addition, if you present such evidence of a god to James Randi, or his committee, you will receive $1 million.

Faith is one of the least reliable methods for arriving at the truth that I am aware of. Why would any logical and honest thinker use faith to determine what is true and what it false. To do so is patently absurd.

Why would any god, let alone your god, create Man and then place him in such a hostile environment pray tell?

Oh, dear, these are examples of your "logic and evidence," are they? This is indeed schoolboy atheism.

We're done because I now see that I am dealing with precisely what I suspected I was dealing with. I can see exactly where this discussion is going to go.

 

[lostinthought]

Welcome lost in thought.

Its interesting to me that as far back as I can remember it has been completely logical to me that the only explanation of existence is God.
I do agree with you that I have found atheist to be well educated and a respectful group.

And you can prove that it wasn't the giant flying spaghetti monster what dun it?

And you can prove that it wasn't some other non-christian-related god what dun it?

And you can prove that there wasn't some other non-deity-related cause that created the universe?

I can go on but you take my point?

As you can see, your god is just one of the possible causes amongst a whole host of possibilities. To state that it is the ONLY explanation is disingenuous. To believe that your god was the cause is an act of faith and far from logical. If you do not agree, please look up the word logical and explain how you get to the conclusion that it was god won dun it.

 

[durangodawood]

....I am a member of several Atheist forums. We welcome Theists unreservedly although we reserve the right to question the Theist's beliefs. Unlike this forum, full access to all of our threads are open to both Theists and Atheists alike. Generally, Theists are free to criticise us Atheists in whatever manner they choose, including the use of profanity. You see, from our perspective, truth has nothing to fear from inquiry. Even though christianity is supposedly about peace, love, understanding, acceptance and tolerance, it would appear that Atheists are far more tolerant of Theists than are Theists of Atheists, given that there are topics on this forum that are only open to christians.....

Not really a fair comparison.

Christianity (or any active religion) is about so much more than the philosophical discussion: "is there a god?" What would be the point of Christians allowing atheists to derail every discussion about how to apply the Bible to daily living, or about the finer points of theology?

Atheism by contrast is just so..... small. There's no life-content there that theists could come in and disrupt.

 

[durangodawood]

Contrary to scientific conclusions special creation is the only logical origin of the material universe, most notably life. The TOE may be a carefully constructed (strong) delusion, by God, to keep unbelievers in the dark, for the time being.

I dont like this liar-God notion.

 

[AvisG]

Fast forward 18 years or so and I started to question Gods morality which led to questioning the validity of gods existence. I started to study epistemology and philosophy and this led to my understanding that I did not have valid reasons for my belief. During this time a person challenged me to study evolution so I did. What I found with my new found skepticism is that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. This led to my throwing out the bible as actual truth. All of this made me unconvinced that god exists.

Do you realize how many non sequiturs you have assembled in one short paragraph? Your concerns with God's MORALITY caused you to question God's EXISTENCE? Your study of philosophy and epistemology (a branch of philosophy) led you to conclude that you did not have "valid reasons" for belief - even though any number of first-rate philosophers and epistemologists are theists and there has been a dramatic upsurge in interest in theism in the philosophical disciplines? Your studies of evolution caused you to "throw out the Bible as actual truth" and made you unconvinced God exists - even though mainstream, nontheistic scientists recognize that evolutionary theory is riddled with serious flaws, any number of serious scholars and scientists are theistic evolutionists, and any number of serious and distinguished theists do not regard the Bible as inerrant? As with the OP, it strikes me that you probably found a more appealing and emotionally satisfying landing spot in atheism for reasons having little or nothing to do with the reasons you give - because the reasons you give really don't hang together logically.