• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured It is sophistry that we Protestants "accept the canon of the Jews"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by SummaScriptura, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

    +1,776
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Bummer. I live in Connecticut, about an hour outside of Gemorrah. Well, we still have CF. Maybe we can start a thread about hermeneutics, "My Hermeneutic" or something like that, in which we say how we individually interpret our religion, including the Scriptures, and why. Or maybe the same thing, but just the Scriptures.

    This one you posted here is interesting, so I suppose we could just continue along here. You're the OP, so you'd have to give me permission to go that far off the original topic.
     
  2. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    +936
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Do you have a source for this? I think this is probably just something you've heard and accepted.
    Do you have a source for this? I think this is probably just something you've heard and accepted.
    Please go on. What are your examples of this total opposition?
     
  3. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    +936
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Let's do! A new thread I mean.
     
  4. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    811
    +38
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    Shalom

    Over the years, many times has someone asked me about Panin, my thoughts are that he discovered some of the inner machinery of how It all works at the booting stage, examined a tiny bit of the root directory, but didn't have the OS to run It, The Key, But he did find some statistically incredible things therein...

    This is what It produces, The Result

    Enjoy

    Isaiah 19:19-20 & Jeremiah 32:20

    [​IMG]

    ביום ההוא יהיה מזבח ליהוה בתוך ארץ מצרים ומצבה אצל גבולה ליהוה

    Verse 18024 | Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an Altar unto YHWH in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a Pillar at the border thereof unto YHWH. 38 ~ 2

    Total 1683| Exo 6:27 These are they which spake to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring out the children of Israel from Egypt: these are that Moses and Aaron. 33 ~ 6

    1.
    58 ~ 58| Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 5
    2.
    1758 ~ 1758| Exo 9:15 For now I will stretch out My Hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. 24 ~ 6
    3.
    301758 ~ 21840| Dan 4:2 I thought it good to shew the Signs and Wonders that the High God hath wrought toward me. 6 ~ 6
    4.
    57301758 ~ 11874| 2Ch 31:19 Also of the sons of Aaron the priests, which were in the fields of the suburbs of their cities, in every several city, the men that were expressed by name, to give portions to all the males among the priests, and to all that were reckoned by genealogies among the Levites. 50 ~ 5
    5.
    5657301758 ~ 3468| Lev 24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 45 ~ 9
    6.
    4285657301758 ~ 8110| 2Sa 3:28 And afterward when David heard it, he said, I and my kingdom are guiltless before YHWH for ever from the blood of Abner the son of Ner: 31 ~ 4
    7.
    2914285657301758 ~ 15086| Psa 76:4 Thou art more Glorious and Excellent than the mountains of prey. 80 ~ 8
    8.
    3802914285657301758 ~ 5768| Deu 32:9 For YHWH'S portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of His Inheritance. 41 ~ 5
    9.
    1433802914285657301758 ~ 28516| 1Co 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. 35 ~ 8
    10.
    1211433802914285657301758 ~ 5546| Deu 24:20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. 44 ~ 8
    11.
    461211433802914285657301758 ~ 23350| Mat 8:4 And YESHUA saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them. 12 ~ 3
    12.
    56461211433802914285657301758 ~ 16358| Psa 147:6 YHWH lifteth up the meek: He casteth the wicked down to the ground. 153 ~ 9

    ~~

    ____________

    [​IMG]

    והיה לאות ולעד ליהוה צבאות בארץ מצרים כי יצעקו אל יהוה מפני לחצים וישלח להם מושיע ורב והצילם

    Verse 18025 | Isa 19:20 And IT shall be for a Sign and for a Witness unto YHWH of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto YHWH because of the oppressors, and He shall send them a Saviour, and a Great One, and He shall deliver them. 39 ~ 3

    Total ~ 3766| Num 4:22 Take also The Sum of the sons of Gershon, throughout the houses of their fathers, by their families; 26 ~ 8

    ~

    1.
    26 ~ 26| Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 ~ 9
    2.
    43726 ~ 12624| Neh 11:35 Lod ("travail"), and Ono ("vigorous"), the valley of craftsmen. 46 ~ 1
    3.
    11043726 ~ 2516| Exo 34:19 All that openeth the matrix is Mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. 53 ~ 8
    4
    .
    5611043726 ~ 25212| Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they Glorified God, saying, That a Great Prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited His people. 23 ~ 5
    5.
    4995611043726 ~ 28226| Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 27 ~ 9
    6.
    2934995611043726 ~ 13874| Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like Him? 49 ~ 4
    7.
    3802934995611043726 ~ 4556| Num 27:1 Then came the daughters of Zelophehad, the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph: and these are the names of his daughters; Mahlah, Noah, and Hoglah, and Milcah, and Tirzah. 28 ~ 1
    8.
    303802934995611043726 ~ 28468| 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 18 ~ 9
    9.
    276303802934995611043726 ~ 7292| 1Sa 3:15 And Samuel lay until the morning, and opened the doors of The House of YHWH. And Samuel feared to shew Eli the vision. 18 ~ 9
    10.
    31276303802934995611043726 ~ 25936| Luk 22:71 And they said, What need we any further Witness? for we ourselves have heard of His own mouth. 93 ~ 3
    11.
    2631276303802934995611043726 ~ 26500| Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father. 28 ~ 1
    12.
    1802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 15028| Psa 73:7 Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish. 80 ~ 8
    13.
    1781802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 1990| Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. 23 ~ 5
    14.
    3541781802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 10504| 1Ch 6:49 But Aaron and his sons offered upon the Altar of the burnt offering, and on the Altar of incense, and were appointed for all the work of the place most holy, and to make an atonement for Israel, according to all that Moses the servant of God had commanded. 55 ~ 1
    15.
    753541781802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 18836| Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of YHWH, The Zion of The Holy One of Israel. 74 ~ 2
    16.
    426753541781802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 23908| Mat 22:35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him, and saying, 57 ~ 3
    17.
    208426753541781802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 682| Gen 25:23 And YHWH said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. 48 ~ 3
    18.
    181208426753541781802631276303802934995611043726 ~ 19054| Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of YHWH, and by His fierce anger. 30 ~ 3

    ~~

    __________________
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Verse 18024 | Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an Altar to YHWH in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a Pillar at the border thereof to YHWH. 1683

    Verse 18025 | Isa 19:20 And IT shall be for a Sign and for a Witness unto YHWH of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto YHWH because of the oppressors, and He shall send them a Saviour, and a Great One, and He shall deliver them. 3766

    The Sum of Isa 19:19-20 - 1683+3766 = 5449

    The Height of the Great Pyramid = 5449 pyramid inches, a measurement that was used by the builders.


    [​IMG]

    _

    and IT has never had a capstone.

    Only on a pyramid are all the corners joined together by the Head Stone/ Head of the corner ~ Capstone

    Psa 118:22 The Stone which the builders refused is become the Head of the corner.

    Mat 21:42 YESHUA saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner: this is YHWH'S doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The Stone which the builders rejected is become the Head of the corner:

    Luk 20:17 And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner?


    Act 4:11 This is the Stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the Head of the corner.

    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the Stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the Head of the corner,

    _

    The Giza plateau is in the midst-middle of Egypt, (even all of the earth's land mass) and is at the Border of upper and lower Egypt, Giza means border in Arabic.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Verse 19752 | Jer 32:20 Which hast set Signs and Wonders in the land of Egypt, even unto this day, and in Israel, and among other men; and hast made thee a Name, as at this day; 52 ~ 7


    Total ~ 5315| Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which YHWH thy God shall choose to set His Name there, when YHWH thy God hath blessed thee: 38 ~ 2

    ~

    1.
    501 ~ 501| Gen 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 25 ~ 7
    2.
    740501 ~ 25155| Luk 6:8 But He knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth. 14 (1+4) ~ 5
    3.
    807740501 ~ 21561| Eze 42:8 For the length of the chambers that were in the utter court was Fifty cubits: and, lo, before the temple were an hundred cubits. 50 ~ 5
    4.
    576807740501 ~ 1141| Gen 38:21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place. 59 (5+9) 14 (1+4) ~ 5
    5.
    293576807740501 ~ 18367| Isa 37:14 And Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto The House of YHWH, and spread it before YHWH. 51 ~ 6
    6.
    380293576807740501 ~1 4325| Psa 30:5 For His anger endureth but a moment; in His Favour is Life: weeping may endure for a night, but Joy cometh in the morning. 35 ~ 8
    7.
    74380293576807740501 ~ 26029| Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 61 ~ 7
    8.
    6174380293576807740501 ~ 24975| Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from caesar augustus, that all the world should be taxed. 3
    9.
    176174380293576807740501 ~4269| Num 18:11 And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it. 29 ~ 2
    10.
    549176174380293576807740501 ~ 5369| Deu 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 21 ~ 3
    11.
    53549176174380293576807740501 ~ 12081| Ezr 2:53 The children of Barkos, the children of Sisera, the children of Thamah, 55 ~ 1
    12.
    78153549176174380293576807740501 ~ 22323| Joe 2:11 And YHWWH shall utter His Voice before His army: for His camp is Very Great: for He is strong that executeth His Word: for the day of YHWH is Great and very terrible; and who can abide it? 13 ~ 4
    13.
    5078153549176174380293576807740501 ~ 24839| Mar 15:12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto Him Whom ye call the King of the Jews? 27 ~ 9
    14.
    3405078153549176174380293576807740501 ~ 25109| Luk 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear The Word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret, 6
    15.
    763405078153549176174380293576807740501 ~ 26917| Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 39 ~ 3
    16.
    17763405078153549176174380293576807740501 ~ 8429| 2Sa 16:2 And the king said unto Ziba, What meanest thou by these? And Ziba said, The asses be for the king's household to ride on; and the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat; and the wine, that such as be faint in the wilderness may drink. 18 ~ 9

    ~~
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  5. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

    78
    +29
    Japan
    Christian
    Married
    What you are asking for will take time to find. I have made a bookmark of this question and shall return with what I find when I am done. The book of Enoch that you ask for, I read in the past sufficiently to determine what I said; I didn't make notes since this was my own personal study, and now you ask me for evidence which means I need to reread what I did to some extent -- again, these things shall take time.
     
  6. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

    78
    +29
    Japan
    Christian
    Married
    Here is an answer to points one and two you ask about, and possibly even to #3, which I, however, shall try to find specific points over the next few days, or even today, if that is the will of my Lord Jesus.
    Source study:

    Josephus:

    Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, BOOK I, Whiston section 8


    [38] For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, 1 which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death.

    Comment: quoting and informing:
    [ twenty-two books = the equivalent of the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures according to modern division]


    It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers,
    because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them. For it is no new thing for our captives, many of them in number, and frequently in time.

    Restating part of the above once more for emphasis:
    " . . .no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them."


    Quoting an opinion on Jerome:
    Jerome, who is described as “the best Hebrew scholar” of the early church and who completed the Latin Vulgate in 405 C.E., took a definite stand against such Apocryphal books and was the first, in fact, to use the word “Apocrypha” explicitly in the sense of noncanonical as referring to these writings.​


    Jerome to Laeta: page 15 of this link. Top paragraph from previous page, midway down.

    Classics in the Education of Girls and Women


    Quoting: “Let her avoid all the apocryphal books, and if she ever wishes to read them, not for the truth of their doctrines but out of respect for their wondrous tales, let her realize that they are not really written by those to whom they are ascribed, that there are many faulty elements in them, and that it requires great skill to look for gold in mud.”—Select Letters, CVII.

    ------------

    Besides this, we have the internal evidence as mentioned before.

    This I will now try to locate in the book of Enoch over the next few days as said above.
     
  7. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

    326
    +129
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I just want to give an example of why the Apocrypha is not "mud" or "tales" or "faulty."

    Read 2 Kings 21:1-18, which is an account of king Manasseh.

    Now 2 Chronicles 33:1-20, which is mentioned in the previous passage.

    Wait. Did you catch that near the end?:

    2 Chronicles 33:
    18 Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and his prayer unto his God, and the words of the seers that spake to him in the name of Yahweh God of Israel, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel.​

    I don't remember reading anything about a prayer of Manasseh in Kings, do you? There's more in the next verse:

    2 Chronicles 33:
    19 His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.

    Wow. This is just one example of information that is missing from the canon, that the canon itself says is canon, yet is just not there.

    But in this case, I have some good news. Some lovely soul in times past saved a copy of the Prayer of Manasseh, and it can be found in the Apocrypha, even in the KJV 1611. Here it is in the spoiler, it's just one verse long and it's modern English for your convenience:

    O Lord, Almighty God of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of their righteous seed; who hast made heaven and earth, with all the ornament thereof; who hast bound the sea by the word of thy commandment; who hast shut up the deep, and sealed it by thy terrible and glorious name; whom all men fear, and tremble before thy power; for the majesty of thy glory cannot be borne, and thine angry threatening toward sinners is importable: but thy merciful promise is unmeasurable and unsearchable; for thou art the most high Lord, of great compassion, longsuffering, very merciful, and repentest of the evils of men. Thou, O Lord, according to thy great goodness hast promised repentance and forgiveness to them that have sinned against thee: and of thine infinite mercies hast appointed repentance unto sinners, that they may be saved. Thou therefore, O Lord, that art the God of the just, hast not appointed repentance to the just, as to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, which have not sinned against thee; but thou hast appointed repentance unto me that am a sinner: for I have sinned above the number of the sands of the sea. My transgressions, O Lord, are multiplied: my transgressions are multiplied, and I am not worthy to behold and see the height of heaven for the multitude of mine iniquities. I am bowed down with many iron bands, that I cannot lift up mine head, neither have any release: for I have provoked thy wrath, and done evil before thee: I did not thy will, neither kept I thy commandments: I have set up abominations, and have multiplied offences. Now therefore I bow the knee of mine heart, beseeching thee of grace. I have sinned, O Lord, I have sinned, and I acknowledge mine iniquities: wherefore, I humbly beseech thee, forgive me, O Lord, forgive me, and destroy me not with mine iniquites. Be not angry with me for ever, by reserving evil for me; neither condemn me to the lower parts of the earth. For thou art the God, even the God of them that repent; and in me thou wilt shew all thy goodness: for thou wilt save me, that am unworthy, according to thy great mercy. Therefore I will praise thee for ever all the days of my life: for all the powers of the heavens do praise thee, and thine is the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    Does it read like "mud" or "tales" or "faulty" to you? I don't think so!

    Praise Yahweh.
     
  8. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

    78
    +29
    Japan
    Christian
    Married
    Here we come down to a dilemma of sorts. Even in some Christian writings not in the NT, you shall find similar useful things if you read them.

    Therefore we must ask why were they not included? The answer is fairly simple. We were given what we need for our faith. That other things exist which are true and helpful is certain and much of this is not 'mud' - but God chose not to make the material part of the Bible nonetheless. The fact that you quote some of this material and that their names may be found in scripture even indicates that other material may be useful; we might even find new interesting information in such.

    The thing you must watch out for is that such material does not conflict with what we have been given.

    Do you still want me to look for the book of Enoch and the material therein?

    Since you seem very interested in this material, you could always make it a study for benefiting others. By collecting material from ancient times that you judge non-contradictory and complementary to what we have, it could be disseminated as a Bible study aid. For each source, you might compile a short commentary about what it contains and does for us. It could of course be related to both the OT and the NT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  9. tulipbee

    tulipbee Worker of the Hive

    +261
    Christian
    Private
    where did you get all that? book? program? with all that, does it prove God is the author of the bible instead of men? would you say 66 books are inspired by God and the extras, 73, 76 books are not inspired by God. I think this is what panin said. or can you list books that have those numeric patterns?
     
  10. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    811
    +38
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    Shalom

    Those verses were done yesterday by me (brand new), and Yes it does prove that the Bible is inspired, Perfect.. Here is an earlier post in this thread that should answer the rest of your question.


    • There are 66 Books in the Holy Bible

      • The First occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse.


      • Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were Sixty-Six; - Hebrew Total 3858
    46+26 = 72

      • The 3858th vs. Numbers 7:7 Two wagons and Four oxen he gave unto the sons of Gershon, according to their service. 14



      • Sixty-Six + Two + Four = 72
    72+14 = 86


      • The Second occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse.


      • Leviticus 12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean Two Weeks (14), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying Sixty-Six days. - Hebrew Total 4493


      • The 4493rd vs. Numbers 26:3 And Moses and Eleazar the priest spake with them in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
    17+29 = 46

    Add All the chapter and verse Numbers together 86+46 = 132

    66+66 = 132


     
  11. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

    326
    +129
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    In the example of the Prayer of Manasseh, and there are others, the problem is not that Yahweh didn't include it in His book, it's that we keep messing things up.

    I want to point out, very emphatically, that the canon says the prayer should be in the canon, specifically in the book of the kings of Israel, which our copies of kings has spliced together with the book of the kings of Judah.

    Did Yahweh forget to put it in? Or did man mess it up somehow or another when they were splicing Kings?

    I do think your suggestion is wise, to allocate information regarding out of canon sources, and in canon sources as well, so that the in canon can verify or disqualify not just Apocrypha, but each other too, on their own merits, with the aid of programmatically accurate translations.

    I just cannot take Jerome's poor attitude towards Apocrypha (he said all Apocrypha!) because I know of other places in Scripture that are lacking info it says is supposed to be there, including things that are not even in the Apocrypha.

    For instance, I believe we are missing the entire book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel, which is stated a dozen or more times in Kings that it's supposed to be in Scripture.

    If you read Kings and Chronicles back to back sometime, you will notice that Chronicles is missing a lot.

    About Enoch, I'm sure summa wants you to post more info regarding it, and I also am interested about it, but I'm not as studied on the subject.

    I just couldn't let Jerome get away with that smart remark of his!
     
  12. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

    326
    +129
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    The account of Manasseh in Kings and Chronicles is very inspiring, not just in faith, but in repentance. I want to break it down a little, I hope no one minds.

    Manasseh did a multitude of bad things, listed in 2 Kings 21:1-9 and 2 Chronicles 33:1-9, including burning his own son alive in a sacrifice to baal and making all of Judah to sin by worshipping other gods.

    And yet in 2 Chronicles 33:10-13, we learn that after he was taken into captivity in Babylon, he repented and prayed for forgiveness.

    So Yahweh forgave him and brought him back to Judah, and king Manasseh fixed almost everything in 2 Chronicles 33:14-17.

    Then it says in 2 Chronicles 33:18-19 where you can find this prayer so you can read it for yourself, this prayer which tugged at Yahweh's heartstrings such that He forgave Manasseh and gave him a second chance, which he made good on.

    Not only I, but the people who wrote Scripture say you should look up this prayer for inspiration, either in Kings (where it no longer can be found) or in the writings of the seers (a no longer available source document that was probably used to compile Kings.)

    I believe there are kings and even presidents throughout history that could benefit from reading the Prayer of Manasseh, and maybe even some of them did.
     
  13. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    +936
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Constitution
    You might appreciate this:
    A Harmony of Chronicles, Kings and the Prayer of Mannasseh
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  14. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    +936
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Here it is
     
  15. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

    78
    +29
    Japan
    Christian
    Married
    Here is someone else's opinion on the book of Enoch. I will go through some of the book on my own, but wanted to give you this link:
    The Book Of Enoch EXPOSED!

    Unfortunately, some of the claims found on the link, I find against scripture!
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  16. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    +936
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I'm sorry, I cannot respond to a website. You're actually proving my assumption to be right.
    You felt very strongly, The Book of Enoch is against the Scriptures, but you don't remember what. But now you send me a link and say, 'here, go read this'. I too could point you to many websites with an anti-Enoch bent. I'm not the one with the anti-Enoch conviction, you are. I thought you had something to add to a back-and-forth conversation but obviously you don't. Doh! I took the bait again! Shame on me!
     
  17. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

    78
    +29
    Japan
    Christian
    Married
    I told you it would take time, and I am not as fresh as I used to be. It also seems that there are more than one book of Enoch.

    The one I am going through now is called the Ethiopian book of Enoch, and frankly I don't know how many other claims there are. There seems to be one more that I have found. So, I will write when and if I find something.

    I just thought you might want to see something already studied by someone. As I said, it is unfortunate that I don't agree with some of that person's claims. They are unbiblical in my own opinion.

    I'll be back, whether by confirming your idea or by opposing it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  18. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

    78
    +29
    Japan
    Christian
    Married
    Just going through the material right now. So far nothing of importance positive or negative has been found. Also, remember when Jude quoted Enoch, he didn't say it came from a book:
    Jude 14: And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, ​
    (The Book of Enoch, Chapters 1-60)

    I did run into the claim: "12Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them . . ." That seems impossibly large for a humanoid.

    Chapter 8 and onward makes claims that cannot be verified.
    Chapter 10 makes a statement that has some truth in it, in that the Bible tells us that a number of angels were shut up in prisons underground awaiting judgment; however, Enoch's book says something contradictory to that:
    16Then shall they be taken away into the lowest depths of the fire in torments; and in confinement shall they be shut up for ever.​

    This same disagreement with scripture is repeated more than once: "4From this time forward, never shall you ascend into heaven; He has said, that on the earth He will bind you, as long as the world endures."

    Chapter 18 seems as if it contains a lot of nonsense.
    Chapter 22 contains something about souls and spirits which to me is not according to Biblical doctrine.
    Chapter 23 seems to be nonsense.
    -----------
    Please read more if you want. I think I have had all I need. This is not what I need for my salvation.
     
  19. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

    +265
    Non-Denom
    Single
    good point! :oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup:
     
  20. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +3,601
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi summaseriptura,

    I'm not sure that your historical accounting is quite correct. The canon of the old covenant had been established well before anyone even knew that there was ever going to be any apostles or writings thereof. I believe that most Jewish historians allow that the old covenant was canonized sometime during the intertestimental or deuterocanonical period of about 400 years between the last writings of the prophets of God and the birth of the promised Messiah. If this understanding is true, then the Jews didn't even know that there was ever going to be apostles or any writings attributed to them.

    However, as the Scriptures declare of themselves, they are living and active. What the Jews canonized were the historical records of God working through His people to bring about the way of salvation. What the writings of the apostles canonize is how that way of salvation came to be completed and its proclamation thereof.

    Both canons of Scripture are intended to be used together to bring about the fulfillment of God's purpose among His creation. It isn't a - this one's wrong and that one's right - proposition. They are both right, but they both give us an accounting of all that God has done that men might be saved. Beginning with the creation of all things in this realm and ending with the day that those who have believed the truth of God will receive the promise for that belief.

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
Loading...