Israeli military orders demolition of structures built by Christian "World Vision"

[jazzflower92]

Dear M. Soldier,

I think you are making some good points. Actually, Christians are not the only ones who should protect innocents: the Old Testament says to as well.

Many of the native people being brutalized by the Israeli army are Christians, so you raise a good question:
How can evicting native Christians from homes in the Holy Land so Jews can live there be a Christian duty?
This is wrong on many levels. It puts being Jewish above treating one's neighbor as oneself.

Also many on the Palestianian side have no love for Christians either. Also there is strong evidence that actually the Palestians are not the native people of the land and are actually the descdents of people brought in for when the original Israelites dispersed. There are Israeli Christians if one remembers as well.

 

[Psalm 91]

Dear M. Soldier,

I think you are making some good points. Actually, Christians are not the only ones who should protect innocents: the Old Testament says to as well.

Many of the native people being brutalized by the Israeli army are Christians, so you raise a good question:
How can evicting native Christians from homes in the Holy Land so Jews can live there be a Christian duty?
This is wrong on many levels. It puts being Jewish above treating one's neighbor as oneself.

I'm not excusing them but we have to remember that they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah so in their minds, treating one's neighbor as oneself means treating Jews as oneself. They don't really consider the rest of us on an equal level. They have misunderstood the word "chosen" and they think it means they are "better", which they aren't. I don't think that will change until they see their Messiah, the One whom they pierced and then they will weep for Him. Even God called them a "stiff-necked people" so we are not alone in our occasional frustration with them.

 

[rakovsky]

The Jews are the descendants of Abraham. The Covenant was given to Abraham and was fulfilled through Abraham's descendants that would come through Isaac.
The verse when God says He will bless those who bless thee, He's talking about Abraham and his descendants. Why would He mean just Abraham????? Abraham died eventually. The covenant was:

Genesis 17:2-7[/B]

Genesis 17:18-21

So I think it is very clear that the covenant extended beyond Abraham and when God said He would bless those who blessed him, He was speaking of Abraham and his descendants which are the Jews.

The main idea, Psalm 91 is that in Galatians 3 Paul says that Christians are the descendants of Abraham.

That is why when it comes to God's promises, Christians inherit them too.


Let me recap what Paul explains:
1. God told Abraham that he would bless Abraham. The blessing is not to just the Jews but "all nations" in that verse. Paul says this is because all nations become Christians.

2. Abraham's descendants are the Christians.

3. Christians are the circumcision.

4. Christians inherit God's promises..

5. The Old Covenant is "obsolete" and ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

P.S. A person doesn't need to think God broke his covenant to realize that Christians are the Israelite sons of Abraham, and inherit God's promises and blessings.
Granted, Zechariah 11:10 talks about Christ the Good Shepherd being rejected and "breaking" his "covenant" with the people.

But the main idea is that Christ overcame the Old Covenant and the punishments of the law. As Paul writes, Christ broke down the wall of separation between Jews and gentiles.

 

[rakovsky]

Also there is strong evidence that actually the Palestians are not the native people of the land and are actually the descdents of people brought in for when the original Israelites dispersed.

Jazzflower, a study by Hebrew University in 2000 showed many Palestinians have Jewish DNA.

You may remember how in the Bible we read about many Jews becoming Christian. They spoke Aramaic and you have Christian villagers speaking Aramaic even in the 1970's. Palestinian Arabic is closer to Hebrew than other Arabic dialects, and there are all kinds of Palestinian customs that can be traced to Jewish ones.

We do know that many Christians and Jews were converted to Islamic in the Middle Ages, so that is what happened.

In fact, the Jews were not dispersed out of the Holy Land in the 2nd century, but out of the city of Jerusalem.

Peace.

 

[rakovsky]

I'm not excusing them but we have to remember that they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah so in their minds, treating one's neighbor as oneself means treating Jews as oneself. They don't really consider the rest of us on an equal level. They have misunderstood the word "chosen" and they think it means they are "better", which they aren't. I don't think that will change until they see their Messiah, the One whom they pierced and then they will weep for Him. Even God called them a "stiff-necked people" so we are not alone in our occasional frustration with them.

OK, I sympathize with what you are saying here, Psalm.

The point M.Soldier was making is that we should not support the land conquest of Palestinians. What happened was that followers of one religion, Judaism, decided that the whole land belonged to them, and not to whoever else was living there. But actually there were millions of people following Islam and Christianity already living there.

So what has been happening over the last 70 years there is that the people in control have been kicking the conquered people out of their homes, and unfortunately in many cases those have been native Christians descended from the Israelites themselves.

 

[jazzflower92]

Jazzflower, a study by Hebrew University in 2000 showed many Palestinians have Jewish DNA.

You may remember how in the Bible we read about many Jews becoming Christian. They spoke Aramaic and you have Christian villagers speaking Aramaic even in the 1970's. Palestinian Arabic is closer to Hebrew than other Arabic dialects, and there are all kinds of Palestinian customs that can be traced to Jewish ones.

We do know that many Christians and Jews were converted to Islamic in the Middle Ages, so that is what happened.

In fact, the Jews were not dispersed out of the Holy Land in the 2nd century, but out of the city of Jerusalem.

Peace.

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

http://www.wildolive.co.uk/who%20are%20palestinians.htm

 

[rakovsky]

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Jewish diaspora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who are the Palestinians?

The first article was nice.
The second source you listed mentioned:

According to historians Howard Adelman and Elazar Barkan, the widespread popular belief that there was a sudden expulsion of Jews from Palestine in 70 AD that led to the creation of the Diaspora is not correct... Israel Bartal argues that, while the concept of Jewish exile from Palestine is dismissed by serious Jewish historical scholarship,... the destruction of the Second Temple was responsible for a seismic change in communal Jewish self-perception and of their place in the world. For the generations that followed the event came to represent a fundamental insight about the Jews who were to become an exiled and persecuted people for much of their history.

Thus, as the native Jewish population was not exiled in 70 AD, in fact it remained and developed into the Palestinian population.

 

[jazzflower92]

The first article was nice.
The second source you listed mentioned:



Thus, as the native Jewish population was not exiled in 70 AD, in fact it remained and developed into the Palestinian population.

The Jewish Press » » Debunking the ‘Palestinians as Native Americans’ Myth

Are Palestinians the Indigenous People of Palestine? DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak | Rivka Shpak Lissak

http://www.churchnewsireland.org/ne...ians-have-close-genetic-ties-say-researchers/

http://www.meforum.org/3273/palestinian-founding-national-myths

 

[rakovsky]

The Jewish Press » » Debunking the ‘Palestinians as Native Americans’ Myth

Are Palestinians the Indigenous People of Palestine? DR.Rivka Shpak Lissak | Rivka Shpak Lissak

What the first article you had posted on this topic made sense. Ben Tsvi, Israel's first president, noted that 2/3 of Palestinian villages carried names traceable to Biblical times.

To give an analogy, many people living in Turkey are not really Turks, their language and orientation changed after they were conquered. People in the Holy Land we know were taught Arabic and converted to Islam. Meanwhile, there were plenty of Jews who poke Arabic and were called Arabs outside the Holy Land. For them, were it not for their religion to identify them, it would be much harder to do so, and despite becoming Israeli, probably some of them are Jewish not in the ethnic sense, but in the religious one.

 

[jazzflower92]

Palestinian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

Palestinian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What if they were born a Jew, but converted to Islam or Christianity? How do you defend uprooting them from their homes in Palestine?

 

[Psalm 91]

The main idea, Psalm 91 is that in Galatians 3 Paul says that Christians are the descendants of Abraham.

That is why when it comes to God's promises, Christians inherit them too.


Let me recap what Paul explains:
1. God told Abraham that he would bless Abraham. The blessing is not to just the Jews but "all nations" in that verse. Paul says this is because all nations become Christians.

2. Abraham's descendants are the Christians.

3. Christians are the circumcision.

4. Christians inherit God's promises..

5. The Old Covenant is "obsolete" and ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

P.S. A person doesn't need to think God broke his covenant to realize that Christians are the Israelite sons of Abraham, and inherit God's promises and blessings.
Granted, Zechariah 11:10 talks about Christ the Good Shepherd being rejected and "breaking" his "covenant" with the people.

But the main idea is that Christ overcame the Old Covenant and the punishments of the law. As Paul writes, Christ broke down the wall of separation between Jews and gentiles.

You are eliminating the Jews who are Abraham's biological descendants. Christians are grafted into the branch. We are the adopted children of God. Christians are NOT the circumcision. We don't have to circumcise our male children. Circumcision was one part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Hebrews 8:13 is referring to the Laws. Jesus introduced the New Covenant that those who believe in Jesus will be saved. There is no need for people to follow the Old Testament laws anymore.

God's covenant with Abraham is everlasting. He is the father of the nations but Genesis is referring to Abraham's seed, which is the Jewish nation. We are not Abraham's seed. We are God's adopted children and the members of the Gentile nations spoken of in Genesis. Abraham is our father when we accept Jesus as our Savior.

You cannot replace Israel as the seed of Abraham and the chosen people of God. That covenant is everlasting. The church has not replaced the Jews. They will one day see Him and then understand what they did. Perhaps in the millennial reign of Jesus we will all be joined together spiritually, I don't know.
But what you are professing is Replacement Theology and that is not Scriptural.

 

[rakovsky]

You are partly correct (blue), and partly incorrect (italics):

Christians are NOT the circumcision. We don't have to circumcise our male children. Circumcision was one part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Abraham... is the father of the nations... Genesis is referring to Abraham's seed, which is the Jewish nation. We are not Abraham's seed. Abraham is our father when we accept Jesus as our Savior.

Remember what St. Paul says in Galatians about how Christians are Abraham's children. They are counted as the seed too, as Paul says in Romans 9:8: "the children of the promise are counted for the seed." And as you know from Galatians 3, Christians are inheritors of the promise.

Philippians 3:3 says:
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus,


What does it mean that Christians are the circumcision if they are not physically circumcized, Psalm91?

Paul gives the answer in Romans 2:28-29:
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

Do you understand what he means, Psalm91? Christians do have circumcision of the heart as Paul says in Philippians, and they are Jews inwardly. They are children of the promise and God's blessings and are counted as the seed.

 

[Psalm 91]

You are partly correct (blue), and partly incorrect (italics):

Remember what St. Paul says in Galatians about how Christians are Abraham's children. They are counted as the seed too, as Paul says in Romans 9:8: "the children of the promise are counted for the seed." And as you know from Galatians 3, Christians are inheritors of the promise.

Philippians 3:3 says:
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus,


What does it mean that Christians are the circumcision if they are not physically circumcized, Psalm91?

Paul gives the answer in Romans 2:28-29:
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

Do you understand what he means, Psalm91? Christians do have circumcision of the heart as Paul says in Philippians, and they are Jews inwardly. They are children of the promise and God's blessings and are counted as the seed.

Be-cause we are the adopted children of God, hello. What adoptive parent doesn't consider his adoptive child his own? Have you seen the music video of Third Day where everyone in the video is wearing a T-shirt which says "Adopted"?

You are right, circumcision is of the heart. No one has to have his child physically circumcised, although I would advise it because of health issues later.

Phillipians is not saying that we have replaced the Jews. Actually, I think that many Jews in that day were saved. Paul said that the Jews were purposely blinded to the truth of their Messiah until the last Gentile is saved. I believe that we are very close to that because many Jews are accepting Jesus in these days.

However, there is a difference between us and the Jews. Maybe after Jesus comes back that will change, but until then, the Jews are the chosen people of God and they are Abrahams biological seed.

You can post all of the Scripture verses that you want. It will not change my mind because I know that I am right about this. You are accepting a "new theology" which is not Scriptural. It is trying to make Scripture say what they want it to say and it deceives people. Many are following that false theology and it's unfortunate, IMO.

 

[rakovsky]

Be-cause we are the adopted children of God, hello. What adoptive parent doesn't consider his adoptive child his own?

Not only are Christians adopted of God, they are adopted by Christ and become descendants of his father, Abraham. That is why you said a few messages before: "Abraham is our father when we accept Jesus as our Savior."

The point is this. The blessings and promises made to Abraham are inherited by Christians because they are his descendants. Adopted descendants get their parents' property too.

Abraham was promised protection, land, and salvation, and by inheritance Christians get that too.


We agree on this:

You are right, circumcision is of the heart. No one has to have his child physically circumcised

My main question for you is this:
How does St. Paul define being Jewish:
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

So how do you see this?
Is someone with outward, physical traits Jewish?

Or is it the inward traits that make someone Jewish? Does inwardly Jewish mean fleshly descent? Or does being inwardly Jewish involve the circumcision of the heart?

 

[rakovsky]

In addition to the above, if we were to limit possession of the land to Abraham's physical descendants only, then it poses another quandary:

Many Palestinians are in fact physical descendants of Abraham. After thousands of years, Abraham's seed has spread to millions across the Holy Land, and in fact Christian Palestinians trace their roots back to the early Christians. Therefore, they would also inherit the land based on their physical descent.

But this result of physical divisions unfortunately cuts in the other direction too. Over centuries many have become Jews through conversion, and in fact that is still happening as people around the world accept the religion. It's a fact of life that many simply are not physical descendants of Abraham.

This is why it's tough to say that only physical descendants of Abraham get the land, and put things into a strict land ownership claim.

In reality, it is much more loving of all people and easier to say that we look to unity in Israel's God, forefather Abraham, and Messiah in order to bestow God's blessings on all kinds of people that God loves.

 

[katherine2001]

I stand correct in my assessment. Conservative Christians will justify any and everything Israel does, and will do all they can to make sure they are never labeled anything but victims.

Not to mention that they will defend the Israelis persecuting Middle East Christians (and I mean real persecution, not what many Christians on these boards scream "persecution" about).

 

[MrLuther]

Not to mention that they will defend the Israelis persecuting Middle East Christians (and I mean real persecution, not what many Christians on these boards scream "persecution" about).

There is no better, safer place to be a Christian in the Middle East, than Israel.
This is unbiased fact. Nowhere in the Middle East are Christians as safe, as protected, as well-off as in Israel. Until the civil war, Syria could have been a close second.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

There is no better, safer place to be a Christian in the Middle East, than Israel.
This is unbiased fact. Nowhere in the Middle East are Christians as safe, as protected, as well-off as in Israel. Until the civil war, Syria could have been a close second.

Not if they are Palestinian. You need to learn that Israelis despise all Palestinians, and if an American Christian stands up for the Palestinians, the Israelis have no problem killing them as well. Before you say that "Christians of all types" are safe in Israel, remember the Israelis are committing what is known as Apartheid with the Palestinians; all the while doing it with American dollars and American military hardware and political backing.

 

[MrLuther]

Not if they are Palestinian. You need to learn that Israelis despise all Palestinians, and if an American Christian stands up for the Palestinians, the Israelis have no problem killing them as well. Before you say that "Christians of all types" are safe in Israel, remember the Israelis are committing what is known as Apartheid with the Palestinians; all the while doing it with American dollars and American military hardware and political backing.

You were typing something, I could clearly read that, but it was a random bundle of nonsense.
Please remember that only a tiny minority actually walk around in tinfoil hats, and thus are not accustomed to the level insanity in what was written...