• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Israeli military orders demolition of structures built by Christian "World Vision"

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by rakovsky, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. I stand correct in my assessment. Conservative Christians will justify any and everything Israel does, and will do all they can to make sure they are never labeled anything but victims.
     
  2. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

    +360
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Hello, Jazzflower.

    I think genocide is bad.
    Under the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, articles 2&3 (1948):
    Article II. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: ( a ) Killing members of the group; ( c ) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;​

    If a group of people takes over another people's land where very many people have been living for centuries, claims the land, kicks off the people, and massacres a dozen villages, I oppose that as a violation of human rights.

    In the course of a few centuries white Europeans claimed the Indians' land, conquered them, expelled them from many villages and massacred some. I would say killing people in those villages was genocide. It would have been better if they had just lived together in peace.

    In the situation in the Holy Land, one group also came in, claimed the land, expelled hundreds of villages, and committed a number of massacres of villages. The group did claim the whole land, and planned to have a State for just its own group, which would cause a problem since most of the people living there were not of that group. The group conquered more than the territory it was given by the UN. The government had an official strategy called "Plan D" that said to destroy villages that resisted and called the conquest "cleaning up." 75% of the native people living there were "transferred" or expelled from their homes. Then the massacres of villages happened, which I call "instances of genocide" because the killers wanted to kill part of the Palestinian population - the ones in the villages that resisted.

    I did look at the articles you pointed to. Their idea is that since the conquerors have killed far fewer people than Genghis Khan and other famous genocidists and did not try to kill the whole Palestinian people, then it is not genocide. However, neither fact means that it wasn't genocide, which can just be killing a part of a people.

    I want to be sympathetic to both groups, so I can say that most of the ethnic cleansing was not genocide. But would you say that when villages are destroyed and massacred during the ethnic cleansing of 75% of a native population those are instances of genocide of Palestinians? I am having a hard time with this. Perhaps murdering thousands of decent people while kicking them out of their homeland is not enough to be considered killing "a part of the people."

    In researching this I looked at this article describing some of the massacres:
    A Nakba Diary: The Palestinian Catastrophe - York PSC
    For me the stories of the destruction are sad and hard, Jazzflower.
     
  3. jazzflower92

    jazzflower92 Junior Member

    816
    +124
    Non-Denom
    Single
  4. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    It's not our business. It's God's business. We are told in the Holy Scriptures that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. So why don't we leave any unjustice done in God's hands? We in the U.S. are far from innocent and those in the Palestinian territories are far from innocent. We have witnessed Palestinians recently entering a Jewish home and stabbing to death the entire family. So everyone is a sinner and everyone is guilty in some way. But the Jews are the chosen people of God, not the perfect people of God, the chosen people of God. So why can't we let Him deal with them as He has in the past? It's not our business.
     
  5. So would that statement be from the Old or New Testament? If it's from the Old, then it's going against what Jesus PBUH preached in your New Testament. I thought you guys were Christians, not Jews.
     
  6. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

    +2,293
    Atheist
    Married
    I'd agree with this.

    I'd also add that when you're surrounded by enemies, waiting until you're fighting a "defensive" war isn't exactly "good" strategy.
     
  7. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

    +360
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    It is in neither the Old nor the New Testament, M.Soldier.
    It is a corruption of God's promise to Abraham that He would bless Abraham and those who blessed Abraham.

    St. Paul writes in Galatians 3 that it is faithful Christians who are the children of Abraham and who inherit those promises made to Abraham:
    • know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
    • And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
    • So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

    St. Paul concludes in verse 29:
    • if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    What happened, M.Soldier, is that many supporters of nationalist politics became unaware of the longstanding Christian understanding of the promises to Abraham's descendants, the Christians.
     
  8. Supreme

    Supreme British

    +442
    Protestant
    Single
    It's disgusting. And the Israelis should be condemned for it. Charities trying to do the right thing in the Palestinian Territories- not getting involved in the politics or fighting, simply helping those in need- and their work is destroyed. I'm gobsmacked how the international community isn't condemning this with all its might. The Israeli operations in the West Bank have to stop, as do the settlements.
     
  9. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    I don't know what PBUH means. I do know that the Bible never contradicts itself. You'd have to be more specific. I am a Christian and though many Christians have tried to soften the truth to be more Muslim-friendly, God made a covenant with Abraham in the Book of Genesis. He said that He would bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse the Jews and He has kept that promise. A country will be judged according to the way it treats the Jews. Look at Assyria and Babylon. Look at the natural disasters which occur in the U.S. every time we pressure Israel to give up land to the Palestinians. Look at what happened to Ariel Sharon after he forced the Jews out of their settlements.

    I know that your Holy Book says that descendants of Ishmael are Abraham's descendants and they are his descendants, but the covenant is through Isaac to the Jewish people. It's not just Muslims who don't like to hear that, many Christians deny that nowadays but Scripture says what it says and God never breaks His covenant even if the people walk away from Him. It is still in effect and the "new theologies" won't change it.
     
  10. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    We Gentiles have become adopted children of Christ. We are grafted in to the branches of the True Vine. Please don't soften the message and deceive this man simply because he is of a different faith. Israel is the "apple of God's eye". Until you can show me Scripture which specifically says by God that He has broken His covenant with Abraham then what you are preaching is Replacement Theology which is heresy.
     
  11. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    The Jews are always being condemned by the UN. The Palestinians, rarely.
     
  12. jazzflower92

    jazzflower92 Junior Member

    816
    +124
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Please can we not make assumptions that the natural disasters in America are because of that. Or what happened to Ariel Sharon was because of anything having to do with GOD.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/b...baby-seals-of-the-western-human-rights-lobby/

    Although this article does points out one thing the situation has become in the West.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  13. Read the God of Wrath in Leviticus and the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Look at what David did and look at what John the Baptist did. Those are polar opposites, but if you're supposed to follow Christ, aren't you supposed to protect the innocents of the world? Wanna tell me how supporting the eviction of families from homes, simply because Jews wanna live there, is supposedly a Christian duty? I honestly can't fathom people are this dense to believe this nonsense.
     
  14. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    Well, do you think that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by war? Do you think the Great Flood had anything to do with sin? If you know your God and you see land being taken from Israelis then you should be able to know that the resulting natural disasters didn't just "happen" by coincidence.
     
  15. jazzflower92

    jazzflower92 Junior Member

    816
    +124
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Thats making big assumptions and its unbiblical. Those happened because it was written in the bible. Its like those who are always predicting the end of the world it becomes an obsession and its really unhealthy.

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...-1120-20131120_1_hafeez-jews-college-campuses

    I found this pretty interesting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  16. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    Well, you follow a different teaching altogether from me so I can understand why you don't understand.

    In the Old Testament, God was leading a people to be His own people. Their punishment was harsh because He wanted them to separate themselves from pagans and false gods. He wanted to preserve them as a people and not intermarry with pagans. They could not go before God and ask for forgiveness for their sins because they were under the law and they didn't have the Holy Spirit. They therefore, had to sacrifice animals in order to be forgiven. When Jesus came and showed mercy and compassion upon the people they just wanted healings. That is really all they were interested in and the leaders didn't want to give up the law because it gave them power over the people. They also didn't want trouble with the Roman gov't. They didn't believe He was the Messiah prophesied in Scripture even though He was described perfectly in Isaiah 53. So when He was crucified, He became sin and was separated from God. He became all of our sins and therefore, when we accept Jesus as our Savior, our Messiah, our sins are forgiven. He did away with all of the Law because He was the perfect sacrifice for sin. We can now go before God and ask for forgiveness and Jesus is our mediator. We don't need to sacrifice animals. And when Jesus ascended into heaven, He left us the Holy Spirit, the helper so when we accept Jesus as our Savior, the Holy Spirit enters us and we have a helper on earth. Without the Holy Spirit, the ancient Jews could not be like Jesus, they couldn't love their neighbor, they couldn't be faithful to God. So we can obey the teachings of Jesus because the Holy Spirit is in us and helps us. We are weak and filthy rags otherwise and no better than those in the Old Testament. I hope you are understanding what I'm saying. That is why you see some people in the world who are cruel and heartless. They don't have the Holy Spirit. So there is a very noticeable change in the people of the New Testament from the Old Testament. There may be some very nice people who don't have the Holy Spirit in them and they are no different from the Old Testament Jews who didn't know they had a personal need for God. They just live their lives and then die, physically and spiritually. It doesn't matter how many good things they did when alive because we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus.

    When it comes to the Jews, God gave them that land and more. I believe the land He gave them extends to the Euphrates River and they only have a tiny portion. Now if the Jews suddenly became nice to the Palestinians what do you think would happen?

    They are surrounded by enemies and yet, if a Palestinian from Jerusalem is admitted to a Jewish hospital, he's given good care. They do what they can but they are constantly aware that they are one mistake away from annihilation. How would that make you feel? If the Arabs truly wanted peace, there would have been peace a long time ago. They want the Jews out of there and the only way that would ever happen is if they were destroyed. They've already been through that and they will not go through it again and I don't believe that God will allow them to have to go through it again. I am amazed at their patience in spite of the way the world treats them. In fact, if I were you, I'd trust the Palestinian sympathizers in America about as far as I could throw them. They hate the Jews. I don't think they really care about the Palestinians. Defending the Palestinians is just a way to show their anti-Semitism which seems to be a politically correct stance these days.

    You call this "nonsense" because your religion teaches something completely different. You have not read our Bible and I've only read part of your Qu'ran. You don't know Jesus Christ so you can't possibly understand what you may have read in Scripture. Until I was truly born again I didn't understand Scripture myself. The Holy Spirit helps a person understand what is really being said. However, I would not call your Qu'ran "nonsense". I would call it completely different from my belief and violent in places, but I wouldn't call it nonsense. But when it comes to the Jewish/Palestinian issue I will always defend the Jews because my God tells me to in His Word. It's His business, not mine. I do what He says and leave the situation in His hands.
     
  17. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

    +360
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Hi, Psalm.

    PBUH is an abbreviation for Peace Be Upon Him. M.soldier is wishing peace on Jesus.

    You are right that:
    However, it is a misconception when you say:
    What God actually told Abraham was in Genesis 12:3:

    • [*]I will bless those who bless you,
      [*]And I will curse him who curses you;
      [*]And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

    So God is talking about Abraham here, and he does not mention Jews. Paul teaches in Galatians 3 that the last line above is about all nations becoming Christian. That's how they get the blessing to Abraham. God is not talking about one nation in this verse, but about Abraham and all nations.

    Remember where God tells Abraham - "I will make you the father of many nations"? That's how the blessing and the promises work, Psalm 91.

    God promised land, salvation, and other blessings to Abraham. Paul says about this: "if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    So:
    God's promises and blessings ----> Abraham -----> Abraham's children the Christians.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  18. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

    +360
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Yes, and Christians are part of God's people Israel by adoption. They have been "grafted in" to the community of God's people.

    That is why Paul writes in Philippians 3:3:
    Paul is saying that gentile, uncircumcised Christians are "the circumcision." As you know, circumcision was the hallmark of being Jewish.


    This is what Paul explains in Hebrews 8:13 about God's promise of Christ's New Covenant:
    In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Saying that only Jews get God's promises and blessings is obsolete. God's promises and blessings are to all nations. All nations are to have the faith and it is faith, not genes that make someone Abraham's descendants.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  19. Psalm 91

    Psalm 91 Newbie

    +86
    Non-Denom
    Single

    The Jews are the descendants of Abraham. The Covenant was given to Abraham and was fulfilled through Abraham's descendants that would come through Isaac. I will say again, Gentile believers have been grafted into the branch (Jews) of the Vine (God). We are adopted children of God and share in the inheritance. However, if you want me to believe that the covenant does no longer stand, you must show me Scripture which includes God stating that He is breaking His covenant with the Jews. The verse when God says He will bless those who bless thee, He's talking about Abraham and his descendants. Why would He mean just Abraham????? Abraham died eventually. The covenant was:

    "And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. and I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee..." Genesis 17:2-7

    Genesis 17:18-21 says, "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

    So I think it is very clear that the covenant extended beyond Abraham and when God said He would bless those who blessed him, He was speaking of Abraham and his descendants which are the Jews. The many nations may include the Gentiles but we came much later and were grafted into the branches of the true Vine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  20. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

    +360
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Dear M. Soldier,

    I think you are making some good points. Actually, Christians are not the only ones who should protect innocents: the Old Testament says to as well.

    Many of the native people being brutalized by the Israeli army are Christians, so you raise a good question:
    How can evicting native Christians from homes in the Holy Land so Jews can live there be a Christian duty?
    This is wrong on many levels. It puts being Jewish above treating one's neighbor as oneself.
     
Loading...