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Israel will NOT go through the tribulation...the church will

Discussion in 'Israel Prophecy & Current Events' started by TehMill, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. TehMill

    TehMill Guest

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    First is to understand what the tribulation is, it is what Jeremiah calls the time of Jacob's trouble. Tribulation means trouble, it does not mean wrath as in God's wrath.

    What does Jeremiah SAY about the time of Jacob's trouble? it is only mentioned by that term once in scripture

    Jeremiah ch:30. vs4-11

    These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah

    "Thus says the Lord
    we have heard a cry of panic
    of terror and no peace

    Ask now and see
    can a man bear a child?
    why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins
    like a woman in labour?

    Why has every face turned pale?

    Alas that day is so great there is none like it
    it is even the time of Jacob's trouble

    BUT

    he shall be saved out of it.

    For it shall come to pass in that day saith the Lord of hosts that I will
    break the yoke off thy neck and will burst thy bonds
    an strangers shall no more serve themselves off them
    But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King
    whom I will raise up unto them.

    Therefore FEAR THOU NOT o my servant Jacob saith the Lord
    neither be dismayed o Israel for lo I will save thee from afar
    and thy seed from the land of their captivity

    And Jacob shall return and shall be IN REST and be QUIET
    AND NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.

    For I am with thee to save thee though I make a full end of the nations
    whither I have scattered thee
    but I will correct thee in measure and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

    All this portion of scripture refers not to the Babylonian captivity as is made clear by the word in the preceeding chapter. "in the latter days ye shall see it"

    But note this that God said, it is not the man who travails in childbirth [Israel is God's firstborn son] but the woman who goes through labour [the bride, the church]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2013
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  2. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    You are making the classic mistake that the church and Israel are two separate entities. There are only YHWH's (God's) people and the unsaved. Israel is not only the son, at different times it is the bride, a servant, a harlot, olive tree, sheep, etc.
     
  3. TehMill

    TehMill Guest

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    Hi what I see clearly is that the church is to be gathered before God's day of vengeance, wrath. But I see also from ALL the prophets concerning "the latter days" that Israel ALSO is to be gathered. Israel is now in fact being gathered for the same reason as the church for as Jerry 30. shows clearly God's wrath is against the nations not the Jews.

    It is called the day of Jacob's trouble not because of any trouble Jacob will be in bu because of the trouble coming upon the nations for the way they have treated Israel during their long diaspora.

    But this period of troubulation is not God's wrath.
     
  4. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

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    Is Jeremiah’s prophecy (30:4-11) referring to the same time period as Zechariah’s prophecy (8:23)? If not, then what future event that's different then Jeremiah's prophecy?

    23 Thus says the LORD of Hosts: "In those days, ten men will take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they will take hold of the skirt of him who is a Yehudi, saying, 'We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"
     
  5. TehMill

    TehMill Guest

    +0
    I must say Zech is a more difficult book to follow, I have found as a general rule that the early part of the prophetic books talk about God' s punishment of Israel whereas the later portions speak of blessing, especially when the portion begins "last times" or "latter days" at the close of Jeremiah 29 you see "in the latter days you will understand it" remembering that there was no division of chapter and verse so then the prophecy of chapter 30 follows on.

    In Zech is no talk of the "last times" and yet there never has been time when the Jews were pursued by people seeking the Lord and seeking the blessing as described...so we presume the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

    It looks like the same time spoken of as in Jeremiah 30 and Isaiah 58-65 and Micah 4.

    It is this time of overflowing blessing which is absent from the return from Babylon which in my view makes it certain to be a prophecy for the end times.
    :)
     
  6. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Lightmaker For Christ

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    Actually Israel will go through the Tribulation just like the rest of the world. The AntiChrist will make a false peace treaty with Israel which will last about 3 and a half years, and will then violate it. He also will massacre a great number of Jewish people when he invades Israel, and will set foot on the Temple Mount.

    Sources: Book of Daniel, and Revelations
     
  7. TehMill

    TehMill Guest

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    Yes God says in Jeremiah 30 that God will chastise them in measure. I see the Jews returning en masse to Israel in expectation of Messiah, I see them building the temple during the time when they have their pact with Nastypants....when he breaks that pacts and invades with the view to sitting in the temple as God...all those Jews who will defend the temple, who will come to the defence of it will perish.

    But remember it is when Ac is seated in the temple we can expect the Lord to come.

    But before all of this, it is after Ac feels he has stamped out everything called God which means the severest persecution of the church, as foretold by Jesus, then Ac will seat himself in the temple proclaiming that he is God.

    I am looking for martyrdom rather than rapture.
     
  8. KNOWLEDGE BOMB

    KNOWLEDGE BOMB Junior Member

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    Everything here is correct except it is Not the Antichrist who sits in the temple but Satan himself...

    1. We know the roman AC when he makes the 7 yr deal with many (dan9:27)
    2. Paul tells us in 2thes 2:6 that the one who sits on the throne is REVEALED when he does so.... Yet we know the AC with the agreement and NOT the sitting in temple proclaiming to be god...
    3. We see in Daniel 12:7 (time times halftime) that the AC only continues for 42 months... The first half of the 7 yr time of trouble....
    4. We see the dragon(Satan) rules with and gives power to the Antichrist (Rev13:2)
    5. We see their are 7 kingdoms with One left that of the Antichrist (Rev 17:10)
    6. We see that tells us that HE IS OF THE 7th But IS THE 8th (Rev 17:11)
    7. The dragon is part of the 7th kingdom (1st half of trib -1260 days)
    8. But HE IS THE EIGHTH (the second half)

    so it is Satan who has always wanted to be worshiped as God and would not allow the AC to sit in his place. Tower of babel was another


    The Antichrist signs the dan 9:27 treaty
    Israel is allowed to sacrifice again
    agreement is broken at 3.5 when the armies surround Jerusalem
    the devil is cast down knowing his tine is short 3.5 yrs (Rev 12:12) and sits in the newly taken temple..... Jews are told to flee both at 12:6 and 12:14 also seen at matt 24 mark 13 Luke 21 and these are the regrafted into the vine (Christ) preached to by the 144,000 as they flee to the protection in the wilderness for as rev 12:6 tells us 1260 days - 12:14 time times halftime or the 2nd half of the trib proteced from the AC here at Daniel 11:41 - the wilderness.


    We see the AC go thru the mid east (dan 11:40's and can't go there cause the ground swallows them up as per Rev 12:16.... Then two of Gogs armies chase after the AC armies dan 11:43
    then he hears if china and Russia NOW coming to the battle at armegeddon where we see the AC waits (11:45) for them right where God said it would happen and it is at that time least no flesh be saved that 12:1-2 those who are onthe book of life rise to life and the rest to shame which allows every eye to see him Rev 1:7


    Taking us before the battle and wrath which starts after the 144,000 and (Rev 7:9) the first mention of a great many in heaven before the throne.... Which thens brings Gods wrath at 8:8


    Notice the half hour of silence before God pours his wrath out which we are gone for by the coming of our lord


    No pre trib here....
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  9. KNOWLEDGE BOMB

    KNOWLEDGE BOMB Junior Member

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    He's correct on Israel paying deeply - Daniel 9:24 tells us that they must pay for 70 weeks and then they are reconciled to God - back to the vine grafted in
    but that hasn't happened yet

    also says everlasting righteousness will come in and that happens when Gods wrath is over and Jesus comes to rule the earth....

    So we see trouble isn't finnished for Israel.... The worst trouble ever is to come and Christians will (some) become the unwise virgins when the pre trib Jesus is delayed

    same as lukes god faithful servant -

    This goes to the saying

    know this FIRST (thing to happen) in the LAST DAYS (start of tribulation)
    scoffers will come saying:

    where's the promise of his coming (we know that promise IS the pre trib rapture) - when the trib starts pre trib Jesus can't come and he is delayed tothose looking for pre trib rapture which Paul clearly tells us in 2thess2:3 that the gathering together cannot happen until after that falling away happns and Satan sits in temple as god

    yes christians your not going anywhere and futher more your not pre pared for the famine pestilences and lawlessness etc

    Contray to popular belief the rider in the white horse starts right after the agreement
    see the wars famines and pestiles of matt 24 mark 13 and Luke 21

    christians aren't prepared cause they think there gonna be gone
     
  10. SharonL

    SharonL Senior Veteran

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  11. daq

    daq Messianic

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    I wonder about this also:

    Jeremiah 31:26-30 KJV
    26. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; my sleep was sweet unto me.
    27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
    29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
    30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.


    Why is it that none seem to want to include this in their "new covenant" theology? I would imagine that it is because if it were applicable then the "seed of beast" would need to be purged out of the man before he could be declared whole by the Priest. But if the war is within you then what of Hosea 13 and Revelation 13?

    "According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. O Yisrael! thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and I take him away in my fury!"

    Nah, couldn't be so . . . could it? :sorry:
     
  12. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    this is rubbish, everything goes "through the tribulation"

    do not play with scripture like it is a toy
     
  13. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    The time of Jacob's trouble is a time of trouble that comes upon them unlike any other...all the saints of God (Jew and Gentile one in Messiah) will be being persecuted even more than ever before, some will be led away and deceived. This is not the outpouring of God's wrath, but that of that man of sin we have called the Anti-Messiah...And yes Jacob (Israel) will be saved "OUT OF" it which means they are first in it...this is when Messiah comes after this, when we have been gathered together unto Messiah, then God pours out His wrath it will be against all the nations that came against Him and His children and in my opinion they will all not be utterly destroyed, some will remain...then Messiah will set up His Kingdom on earth and at that time some within the nations will still not look to the Mountain of the Lord...as long as humankind lives there will always be some who preferring to be lord of their own lives (Genesis 3:5) will do what is right in their own eyes in disregard for the LORD's clear word...

    Just my $.02

    Paul
     
  14. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Watching I was, and behold, the four Spirits of the heavens rushed upon the great Molten Sea: and four great beasts came up from the Sea, each one diverse from another. The first beast was like a lioness with a head of gold, and it had the wings of an eagle: I watched until the wings thereof were plucked, and it was raised up from the interior, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and the heart of a man was given over to it. And it had a name written upon the forehead, "Ode to the Hero", and its dominion was divided into four little tetrarchies. And behold, another beast, a second, like unto a silver she-bear having been robbed of her cubs, and she raised herself up on one side; and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it. And this was said to it: "Arise, devour much flesh!" And it had a name to the more powerful side of it: "Hillel." After this I watched, and behold, another beast like unto a brazen leopardess, which had upon the curve of it four wings of an `owph of the Ophanim, and it had also four heads, and it had names upon the four heads of the four rivers of its four fountains. Upon the first head was a name having been written, "Presbuteron", and upon the second head was a name having been written, "Archiereon", and upon the third head was a name having been written, "Grammateon", and upon the fourth head was the name "Tzaddukim Dam-meseq" and the leopardess had a form of wisdom nearly irrefutable; and dominion was given unto it. Watching I was, and I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast like unto a mother eagle, with nails of brass, dreadful and terrible was the fourth generation beast, and exceedingly powerful and strong; and it had great iron teeth like swords, and jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth and the needy from among men. It devoured, consumed, and broke in pieces, and stamped the remnant with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn before whom there were three of the first horns plucked: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. And he exalted himself, and magnified himself above every 'el, and spoke marvelous things against the 'El of 'elohim: neither did he regard the 'Elohey of his fathers, nor the desire of women, neither did he regard any 'eloahh: for he magnified himself above all. And upon his station he honored an 'elohim, Ma`azyahu, an 'eloahh whom his fathers knew not, which he honored with gold, and silver, and with precious breastplate stones, and pleasant things. Thus did he in the stronghold fortresses of ma`uzim, with a foreign 'eloahh, whom he acknowledged and increased with glory.

    Yeshua says: The kingdom of the heavens is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. Therefore take heed to yourselves and beware of the chametz of the P'rushim, and of the chametz of the Tzaddukim, and of the chametz of Herod, ("Ode to the Hero"). For the kingdom of the heavens is within you. :)

    Oops! Almost forgot this little recent tidbit concerning Ma`azyahu-Maaziah

    Twenty four hours in a day and a night . . .
    And the twenty fourth course was of the blackest thummim light . . .
    :sorry:
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  15. Travis93

    Travis93 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    It seems to me that Jesus, who is God, is the one pouring wrath out from the very start with famine, death and hell, earthquakes, and so on. How are these not wrath? If believers go through this time then Jesus is pouring out wrath on his own body, seeing as believers are the Body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:27. Note what Jesus accuses Saul of doing by persecuting the believers in Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?. So is Jesus going to persecute and kill himself in Revelation?
     
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