Israel - Is it time to stop US support of this country?

Dave RP

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So Israel should give up land it got while defending its self from enemies seeking its destruction,under the guise of stopping the violence you want Israel to submit to its enemies so it can be destroyed.
No of course not, the process of finding a peaceful co existence for Israel and its neighbours will take decades, but a first start will be to stop building new settlements in occupied territories, and to try to find some dialogue. I think eventually Israel will have to reach an accommodation with Palestine in some form based on those people getting their own territory, it will be slow but there has to be a start at some time. The current situation of tit for tat violence is unsustainable, and only breeds extremism on both sides.
 
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Dave RP

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How do you preserve both democracy and prevent extremism? Hamas was democratically elected. The same sort of problem exists in the Arab Spring, and in Egypt (which people seem to have largely forgotten about). I think the common misconception when people hear the world "Democracy" is "Oh! that's good, because they're sure going to vote for the values we care for", but it's usually the exact opposite.

So, were the troubles resolved through political pressure? general secularization of Europe?
I'm old enough to remember the conflict and stories of it on the news, but I never truly understood why they were even fighting: Weren't they both pretty much the same ethnic group and religion?

The resolution of the Northern Ireland conflict required both sides to make some very difficult decisions.

To list just a few:

The Republic of Ireland had to change their constitution to remove their claim over the territory of Northern Ireland and that was ratified by a referendum.

The IRA had to renounce violence and eventually give up their weapons in phases as the agreement moved forwards.

The British Government had to negotiate with terrorists (IRA and Loyalist terrorist groups)

The two opposing sides in Northern Ireland had to agree to power share with their life long enemies.

The sight of people who murdered and maimed innocent people walking free from prison turned my stomach, but it was necessary - one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. and the price of peace was freedom for some brutal individuals.

I lived in London through the IRA bombing campaign and they did some serious damage in London and outside as well as killing quite a few people, army, police and civilians. It is easy to forget but 20-40 years ago bombs were a regular occurrence in England including nearly killing all the Government of Prime Minister Thatcher in the Brighton bomb and launching mortar attacks on 10 Downing Street.

It took years of hard work and lots of compromise to bring peace to Northern Ireland, the job will be twice as hard in the middle east but somehow it must be started.
 
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stephen583

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Lets clarify this. Support for Israel (God's chosen people) and support for the political modern day Apartheid State of Israel are two separate issues. Zionism is to Judaism, what KKK ideology is to Christianity. In both instances , these hate based racist ideologies are the polar opposite of the theologies they purport to represent. It's really that simple.

If the current state of the nation Israel were in compliance with God's commandments and laws, there would be no impending "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" for Israel. The perpetual enslavement of the Palestinian people by Israel violates God's law, (Exodus 21:2). As Christians are grafted in to the Abrahamic Covenant, this law applies to Palestinian Christians as well as Hebrews. It's that simple.

Understand, I am not anti-Semitic because I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people, especially Christian Palestinians. They are by definition "Semitic" people too, so this label is ridiculous on it's face. I don't hate Jews as people either.

This having been said, it is glaringly apparent the state of Israel has blatantly undermined the lawful mandate calling for a two state solution. Today the Palestinian Territory has been reduced to 13% of it's territory under the mandate. The remaining territory is divided into non-continuous and isolated pockets separated by illegal Israeli settlements and their connecting roads, which can in no way function as a nation state. This was not done by accident.

By following this Apartheid plan, the state of Israel is literally marching itself straight to the gallows, and those who support Israel's racist policies are unwittingly going to pull the hangman's lever. So I ask you, who actually is Anti-Semitic ? You, or me ?!
 
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Armoured

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Lets clarify this. Support for Israel (God's chosen people) and support for the political modern day Apartheid State of Israel are two separate issues. Zionism is to Judaism, what KKK ideology is to Christianity. In both instances , these hate based racist ideologies are the polar opposite of the theologies they purport to represent. It's really that simple.
That said, the Israeli's do make a nice tank...
 
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stephen583

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That said, the Israeli's do make a nice tank...

Agreed. The Merkava is indeed a very fine main battle tank, not to mention their small arms like the uzi sub machine gun and the Galil rifle. In fact, Israeli arms exports estimated at 7.47 billion in 2012 make it the sixth largest arms exporter in the world. Not bad for a country with a population the size of the state of New Jersey.
 
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Armoured

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Agreed. The Merkava is indeed a very fine main battle tank, not to mention their small arms like the uzi sub machine gun and the Galil rifle. In fact, Israeli arms exports estimated at 7.47 billion in 2012 make it the sixth largest arms exporter in the world. Not bad for a country with a population the size of the state of New Jersey.
I actively lobbied the Australian government to buy the Merkava 3 for the replacement of the venerable Leopard. We ended up with second hand M1A1s, which are... nice. I guess.

I don't know about their small arms. I've heard conflicting things about the uzi's reliability, and, iirc, the galil comes with a fitted bottle opener, which I must admit is one thing the austeyr lacks.
 
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Xalith

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Israel couldn't exist without US support but they continue to build illegally in occupied land and to brutally suppress the Palestinians. Is it time that the US used it's influence to get Israel to comply with UN resolutions, leave illegally occupied land and give up it's illegal nuclear weapons. Friends can still be friends even when one tells the other that their behaviour is unacceptable.

"Illegal"

Illegal by whose standards? The UN? Here's a clue for you:

The UN left Israel's borders open.

Israel's borders are NOT defined by the treaties that the UN has in their vaults, their borders are wherever they occupy. There is no "State of Palestine", it's not a nation, a country, or any sort of sovereign body whatsoever, and "Palestine" is actually inside of Israel.

"Illegal"?

Says who? Palestine? lol.
 
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Dave RP

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"Illegal"

Illegal by whose standards? The UN? Here's a clue for you:

The UN left Israel's borders open.

Israel's borders are NOT defined by the treaties that the UN has in their vaults, their borders are wherever they occupy. There is no "State of Palestine", it's not a nation, a country, or any sort of sovereign body whatsoever, and "Palestine" is actually inside of Israel.

"Illegal"?

Says who? Palestine? lol.

It seems the International Community considers them illegal and Israel alone doesn't......

"The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law. Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.

Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980.UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[14] and the International Committee of the Red Cross."
 
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Oafman

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There is no "State of Palestine", it's not a nation, a country, or any sort of sovereign body whatsoever, and "Palestine" is actually inside of Israel.
This is slightly disingenuous.

For example, a large part of the West Bank was part of Jordan when Israel conquered it. But Jordan subsequently renounced its claim to the land, wishing instead that it should go to the Palestinian people. Which means, the people who are from those areas, and who live in those areas.

So while it's true to say there never was a nation called Palestine, the implication in your post that this was somehow 'unclaimed land, up for grabs' is false.

Further to that, the world has agreed that the only way to end this conflict is with a two-state solution (various UN resolutions, near unanimous). One of those states must be Palestine. There might never technically have been a nation called Palestine, but the only meaningful hope of peace is from such a nation being created.
 
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brinny

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"Illegal"

Illegal by whose standards? The UN? Here's a clue for you:

The UN left Israel's borders open.

Israel's borders are NOT defined by the treaties that the UN has in their vaults, their borders are wherever they occupy. There is no "State of Palestine", it's not a nation, a country, or any sort of sovereign body whatsoever, and "Palestine" is actually inside of Israel.

"Illegal"?

Says who? Palestine? lol.

Indeed.

Praying for Israel.

God have mercy.

israel.gif


"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." ~Genesis 12:3
 
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ShaulHaTarsi

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Lets clarify this. Support for Israel (God's chosen people) and support for the political modern day Apartheid State of Israel are two separate issues. Zionism is to Judaism, what KKK ideology is to Christianity. In both instances , these hate based racist ideologies are the polar opposite of the theologies they purport to represent. It's really that simple.

If the current state of the nation Israel were in compliance with God's commandments and laws, there would be no impending "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" for Israel. The perpetual enslavement of the Palestinian people by Israel violates God's law, (Exodus 21:2). As Christians are grafted in to the Abrahamic Covenant, this law applies to Palestinian Christians as well as Hebrews. It's that simple.

Understand, I am not anti-Semitic because I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people, especially Christian Palestinians. They are by definition "Semitic" people too, so this label is ridiculous on it's face. I don't hate Jews as people either.

This having been said, it is glaringly apparent the state of Israel has blatantly undermined the lawful mandate calling for a two state solution. Today the Palestinian Territory has been reduced to 13% of it's territory under the mandate. The remaining territory is divided into non-continuous and isolated pockets separated by illegal Israeli settlements and their connecting roads, which can in no way function as a nation state. This was not done by accident.

By following this Apartheid plan, the state of Israel is literally marching itself straight to the gallows, and those who support Israel's racist policies are unwittingly going to pull the hangman's lever. So I ask you, who actually is Anti-Semitic ? You, or me ?!

The ideology of Zionism is simply that the Jewish people have a right to a nation state, just like all the European nations, just like the African nations, just like the Syrians, the Kurds, and Hindustani Muslims. The only reason it gains its own "-ism" is because the Jewish people have been deprived of a homeland for two millennia and have been systematically persecuted as a result. It's indeed a form of ethnic and religious nationalism, but this by no means makes it comparable to the KKK.

To be fair, Zionism does have some inherent problems, for example the simultaneous commitment to being both "democratic" and "Jewish" requires demographic policies to maintain it as a Jewish state in order for it to be democratic, and is perhaps the main reason behind the fear of a bi-national state.
 
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Xalith

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This is slightly disingenuous.

For example, a large part of the West Bank was part of Jordan when Israel conquered it. But Jordan subsequently renounced its claim to the land, wishing instead that it should go to the Palestinian people. Which means, the people who are from those areas, and who live in those areas.

So while it's true to say there never was a nation called Palestine, the implication in your post that this was somehow 'unclaimed land, up for grabs' is false.

Further to that, the world has agreed that the only way to end this conflict is with a two-state solution (various UN resolutions, near unanimous). One of those states must be Palestine. There might never technically have been a nation called Palestine, but the only meaningful hope of peace is from such a nation being created.

You think THAT is going to magically create "Peace"?

Oh boy, some people are gullible.

Let's say a 2-state solution were to actually be done, and now a nation of terrorists have their own borders and all that. And, as an added bonus, let's just assume that God doesn't lay down His wrath on this wicked world for doing such a thing, and everything turns out to be OK at first.

What's the first thing they're going to do once the dust settles? They're going to attack Israel like they've been doing.

Hamas isn't going to suddenly stop its terrorist activities. Terrorists kill people for two reasons: One, to terrorize, and Two, because they are full of hate. Giving them what they want isn't going to help things. They kill people because they hate.

What do Radical Islamic Terrorists hate the most? First, Jews, Second Christians, and Third everybody else.

So, yeah, let's give Palestine its own nation/borders/government/etc and let Hamas do whatever it wants inside its borders so they can build up forces/weapons/etc to attack its Jewish neighbors. Right.

Now think about this, from the Jews' perspective. You're a Jew living in Israel, a stone's throw away from bloodthirsty people who absolutely hate you. Do YOU want them to become a recognized nation?

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all Palestinians are blood-thirsty, but you gotta look at the prevalence of Hamas. There's a lot of them there.
 
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brinny

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You think THAT is going to magically create "Peace"?

Oh boy, some people are gullible.

Let's say a 2-state solution were to actually be done, and now a nation of terrorists have their own borders and all that. And, as an added bonus, let's just assume that God doesn't lay down His wrath on this wicked world for doing such a thing, and everything turns out to be OK at first.

What's the first thing they're going to do once the dust settles? They're going to attack Israel like they've been doing.

Hamas isn't going to suddenly stop its terrorist activities. Terrorists kill people for two reasons: One, to terrorize, and Two, because they are full of hate. Giving them what they want isn't going to help things. They kill people because they hate.

What do Radical Islamic Terrorists hate the most? First, Jews, Second Christians, and Third everybody else.

So, yeah, let's give Palestine its own nation/borders/government/etc and let Hamas do whatever it wants inside its borders so they can build up forces/weapons/etc to attack its Jewish neighbors. Right.

Now think about this, from the Jews' perspective. You're a Jew living in Israel, a stone's throw away from bloodthirsty people who absolutely hate you. Do YOU want them to become a recognized nation?

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all Palestinians are blood-thirsty, but you gotta look at the prevalence of Hamas. There's a lot of them there.

Amen, brother.

Praying for Israel.

God have mercy.

israel.gif
 
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Oafman

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You think THAT is going to magically create "Peace"?
No. But as I said, it is a necessary foundation for a meaningful peace process. There is no chance of peace, ever, without two states.
Let's say a 2-state solution were to actually be done, and now a nation of terrorists have their own borders and all that.
I'm tempted to ask which nation you're referring to
And, as an added bonus, let's just assume that God doesn't lay down His wrath on this wicked world for doing such a thing
We should be ok, he stopped doing that when we we invented the printing press and became able to effectively document events...
Hamas isn't going to suddenly stop its terrorist activities.
Of course they will. Just like the IRA stopped their attacks (they were 'never going to stop fighting until Ireland was unified')
Terrorists kill people for two reasons: One, to terrorize, and Two, because they are full of hate. Giving them what they want isn't going to help things. They kill people because they hate.
In general, terrorists kill people in the hope of achieving political aims.
What do Radical Islamic Terrorists hate the most? First, Jews, Second Christians, and Third everybody else.
No, Christians aren't second. Most Islamists hate atheists/animists/polytheists more than they do Christians. Look at how ISIS has treated the Yazhidi, even worse than they have the Christians
So, yeah, let's give Palestine its own nation/borders/government/etc and let Hamas do whatever it wants inside its borders so they can build up forces/weapons/etc to attack its Jewish neighbors. Right.
Let's give the reasonable majority something to convince them not to support the hard liners. And in return, they give something back which helps to convince Israelis not to elect Likud
Now think about this, from the Jews' perspective. You're a Jew living in Israel, a stone's throw away from bloodthirsty people who absolutely hate you. Do YOU want them to become a recognized nation?
I do not accept that they are a 'bloodthirsty people', though I do accept the point about hate. But hate is a feeling which can change, given enough time and conciliation. I would want them to become a nation recognised by everyone (most countries already do recognise Palestine) if I thought that was a necessary part of ending the conflict between us, and ending that hate.
 
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Tull

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If the current state of the nation Israel were in compliance with God's commandments and laws, there would be no impending "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" for Israel.

And America is fit to make this judgement ?.......please,America at this stage of its history does not have the right to judge any nation in regard to the commandments of God.
 
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stephen583

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I don't know about their small arms. I've heard conflicting things about the uzi's reliability, and, iirc, the galil comes with a fitted bottle opener, which I must admit is one thing the austeyr lacks.

I'm not exactly thrilled the Israelis sold American fighter avionics to China either. Those avionics were incorporated into the design of the Chinese J-10 fighter plane (an F-16 clone), 400 of which were just sold to IRAN this year by the Chinese.

I can see that coming back to bite Israel on the "rear end", can you ?
 
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Job8

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Israel couldn't exist without US support but they continue to build illegally in occupied land and to brutally suppress the Palestinians.
This is more left-liberal nonsense. If your neighbor had vowed to destroy you and your family and you took steps defend yourself, who would be the oppressor and who would be the target? Israel is surrounded by those filled with hatred and committed to killing, maiming, and destroying innocents. I believe that Israel could survive without American support, but could America survive without Israeli support?
 
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