Israel in the Middle East

[Straightshot]

My comments

Briefly .....

The above discussion is good and close to the rundown of the events of the tribulation period

Suggest the following:

Revelation's visions are subject oriented, some are repeated giving more details of the subject at hand, and they are not necessarily in chronological order

However, the overall narrative is obviously in a beginning and ending format

I believe that the 7 seals are separate and reflect portents [previews] of the coming events of tribulation which begin in chapter 8

All of the 6 seals give defined prevailing conditions of the tribulation upon the earth and in heaven throughout the period


The spreading of the gospel of the kingdom

Intense satanic and human warfare

World wide econimic collapse

Massive human death

Martydom of tribulation believers

Human reaction to the Lord's judgments


The 7th is a pause of silence in heaven just before the Lord brings His unprecedented judgments upon the earth

Much confusion will be cleared up if the seals are rendered in this manner

The judgments contained therein will not begin until the Lord removes them all from the scroll

 

[Major1]

Now I get where your timing is coming from brother. I out of respect for your opinion, went back and reread Rev. 6, and in my understanding the First Seal brings forth the Anti-Christ to Conquer. The Second Seal brings forth the Anti-Christ to destroy and take Peace from the earth. When the "Peace/Security Deal/Agreement/Covenant is agreed to there is no conquering or Wars or of course there would be no "COVENANT/Peace Deal.

I think the first 3 1/2 years are peaceful, then the Anti-Christ changes course and starts conquering and demanding worship. He then is THE BEAST and is given the power over the Saints (Israel) for only 42 months. No one would make a deal with him if he was conquering in he first 3 1/2 yeas brother.

I would like to know why you think the Seals and Trumpets are in the first part of the Seven Year period. Thanks....God Bless.

Thank you brother. I shall try to give my thinking to you. It is my understanding that the Seals, Trumpets and 2 Witnesses will be in the 1st 3 1/2 years period.
The Bowls, persecution, Babylon and Armageddon will be in the 2nd 3 1/2 period.

I believe that the Judgments are that the Seals are opened when the Rapture removes the Church and the A/C is revealed and then he brings judgments come forth. The 7th Seal Judgment is actually all of the Trumpets Judgments with the 7th Trumpet Judgment being ALL of the Bowl judgments. It would look like this............

1st Seal Judgment is Antichrist riding on the white horse. (Chapter 6).
2nd Seal Judgment is War coming on the red horse.(Chapter 6).
3rd Seal is Famine coming on a black horse. (Chapter 6).
4th Seal is death riding a pale horse. (Chapter 6).
5th Seal is persecution. (Chapter 6).
6th Seal is Catastrophic changes on Earth. (Chapter 6).
7th Seal is ALL of the Trumpet Judgments and overlaps the 1st Trumpet judgment.

1st Trumpet Judgment is 1/3 of the Earth smitten (Chapter 8).
2nd Trumpet Judgment is 1/3 of the Seas are smitten. (Chapter 8).
3rd Trumpet Judgment is 1/3 of fresh water Rivers smitten (Chapter 8).
4th Trumpet Judgment is 1/3 of Sun Moon and stars smitten (Chapter 8).
5th Trumpet Judgment is Locusts tormenting men for 5 months (Chapter 9).
6th Trumpet Judgment is a 200 million man army that slay 1/3 of men (Chapter 9).
7th Trumpet is a picture of Heavenly Temple with all of its 7 "Bowl" Judgments. It overlaps 1st Bowl.

1St Bowl Judgment pictures scores on followers of the Beast (Chapter 16).
2nd Bowl Judgment is all the Seas smitten (Chapter 16).
3rd Bowl Judgment is all Rivers smitten (Chapter 16).
4th Bowl Judgment is Sun scorches men (Chapter 16).
5th Bowl Judgment is darkness on the kingdom of the Beast and sores w/pain(Chapter 16).
6th Bowl Judgment is Euphrates River drying up & the 200 M men to enter the Land.(Chapter 16).
7th Bowl Judgment is Armageddon (Chapter 19).

Now some people believe that the Revelation takes us through the events it contains THREE different times. That is not my understanding but I would not argue with anyone who thinks that is the case.

The 1st time is the Seal Judgments.
The 2nd time is the Trumpet Judgments.
The 3rd time is the Bowl Judgments.

It is my understanding that the Two Witnesses prophesy for 1260 days (Rev. 11:3) and it must be in the 1st half of the Tribulation. I think that is the case because at the conclusion of the 2nd half of the Tribulation all the enemies of God are destroyed at Armageddon and the Kingdom is established while in contrast to that, at the end of the 1260 days AFTER the end of the 2 witnesses ministry they are lying dead in the street and God enemies are rejoicing.
Do you see the difference?????

 

[Riberra]

I agree with you. It is refreshing to see someone who is learned in the Scriptures as compared to all the false teaching
that goes on this web site.

You mean the false teaching promoted around 1830 by a dissident from the Anglican Church named John Nelson Darby ,saying that the resurrection of the dead believers and our caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the clouds is a separate event that the Second Coming of Jesus ...

Based on the pre-tribulation rapture promotors[The Darbites] nobody is saved if they have not been teach the rapture.

For the pre-tribulation rapture believers SALVATION means being taken to Heaven before the tribulation while they are still alive.

That is another gospel my friend.

 

[Riberra]

I have recently been shown or understood a KEY FACT on the Two Witnesses timing. They both die and ascend right before the last Woe in Rev. 11, we know this because verse 14 says behold the Second Woe is passed

If you can indentify the Bible passages referring to the First woe and the Second woe ,then you should be able to find that the Third woe will be when Satan will be cast out of Heaven.

The Bible passage related to the first woe give the name of the beast who ascended out of the bottomless pit who will kill the 2 witnesses Revelation 11:7.

 

[Riberra]

[staff edited]
Sending to hell those who oppose the doctrine, another technic from the Darbites ....That is an old technic put in place by your "messiah" John Nelson Darby when someone doubted his teachings.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

 

[Major1]

You mean the false teaching promoted around 1830 by a dissident from the Anglican Church named John Nelson Darby ,saying that the resurrection of the dead believers and our caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the clouds is a separate event that the Second Coming of Jesus ...

Based on the pre-tribulation rapture promotors[The Darbites] nobody is saved if they have not been teach the rapture.

For the pre-tribulation rapture believers SALVATION means being taken to Heaven before the tribulation while they are still alive.

That is another gospel my friend.

To think that the Rapture is some kind of new theology therefore it needs to be rejected is really not good Bible understanding. I recommend that you do more study brother. It seems like to me that the Apostle Paul had more to say than did Dr. Darby as we see in the Scriptures........

1 Thess. 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Dr. Charles Ryrie has rightly said, "The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and likewise if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false."

Norman Geisler notes that heresies can be early, even in apostolic times (cf. 1 Tim. 4 and 1 Jn. 4), and (re)discovery of some truths can be later (like pretrib). With this in mind, a careful study of church history shows that the pre-trib rapture position has historical precedent well before Darby.

Irenaeus (c. 180) made a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture:
the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation], as noted below:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Do we reject justification by faith because it was not talked about until 1550 and not in 101????

 

[Major1]

Sending to hell those who oppose the doctrine, another technic from the Darbites ....That is an old technic put in place by your "messiah" John Nelson Darby when someone doubted his teachings.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

I would spend less time on Darby and more time on study of the Rapture and you would see in
Titus 2:13.......
"Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".

 

[Riberra]

To think that the Rapture is some kind of new theology therefore it needs to be rejected is really not good Bible understanding. I recommend that you do more study brother.It seems like to me that the Apostle Paul had more to say than did Dr. Darby as we see in the Scriptures........

1 Thess. 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Why do you always omit to include the the passage saying UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD which tie the event to the coming of Jesus....not before.
That is John Nelson Darby who promoted the idea that Paul talk of two separate events....

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
-----

Note also that there is no mention of going to Heaven after the resurrection and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air.The reason is simple, the dead believers who will be resurrected and the believers still alive and remain will reign with Jesus here on the Earth.

 

[Straightshot]

The Lord's revealing of His intent to make His true ecclesia of the dead in Christ and those living at the time immortal before He brings His wrath and judgment upon a world of unbelief is given long before Darby discovered this truth by correctly rendering the related scriptures

Those who have been duped into believing that the Lord just shows up at the end of His tribulation period are ignorant

He is the One who will actively bring His tribulation and totally involved in the process

Where do the judgments come from as Revelation unfolds? .... from the Lord Himself

He will not be seen by earth dwellers during the process and will appear in the open at the ending

But just before He pounds the earth He has promised to keep living believers from the pounding [Revelation 3:10

Those who pretend to be His followers will go into the tribulation period [Revelation 3:15-19]

The Darby MacDonald story is a total ruse promoted by the post-tribulation false teachers like David McPherson

MacDonald's vision actually has her "church" going through the tribulation .... the vision is on the Internet

McPherson made up his entire perversion and he thinks that people are to stupid to check him out on the matter

The Lord's second advent and His involvement is going to include much more than just appearing at the end of the days of His tribulation

And even then His gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation are not resurrections at all, but a separation of the believers from the unbelievers .... the believers will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals .... the unbelievers will be rejected [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

 

[Riberra]

The Lord's revealing of His intent to make His true ecclesia of the dead in Christ and those living at the time immortal before He brings His wrath and judgment upon a world of unbelief is given long before Darby discovered this truth by correctly rendering the related scriptures

Those who have been duped into believing that the Lord just shows up at the end of His tribulation period are ignorant

He is the One who will actively bring His tribulation and totally involved in the process

Where do the judgments come from as Revelation unfolds? .... from the Lord Himself

He will not be seen by earth dwellers during the process and will appear in the open at the ending

But just before He pounds the earth He has promised to keep living believers from the pounding [Revelation 3:10

Do you believe that Revelation 3:11-12 is not part of the address to the Church of Philadelphia?

Those who pretend to be His followers will go in [Revelation 3:15-19]

Take care .
Revelation 3:11-12 is for all Christians....

The Darby MacDonald story is a total ruse promoted by false teachers like David McPherson

MacDonald's vision actually has her "church" going through the tribulation .... the vision is on the Internet

McPherson made up his entire perversion and he thinks that people are to stupid to check him out on the matter

There is no mention of David McPherson or The Darby MacDonald story in the Wikipedia link i have provided.
It expose Darby as a dissident of the Anglican Church ....
John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

Darby resigned his curacy in protest. Soon afterwards, in October 1827, he fell from a horse and was seriously injured. He later stated that it was during this time that he began to believe that the "kingdom" described in the Book of Isaiah and elsewhere in the Old Testament was entirely different from the Christian church.

Over the next five years, he developed the principles of his mature theology — most notably his conviction that the very notion of a clergyman was a sin against the Holy Spirit, because it limited the recognition that the Holy Spirit could speak through any member of the Church. During this time he joined an interdenominational meeting of believers (including Anthony Norris Groves, Edward Cronin, J. G. Bellett, and Francis Hutchinson) who met to "break bread" together in Dublin as a symbol of their unity in Christ. By 1832, this group had grown and began to identify themselves as a distinct Christian assembly. As they traveled and began new assemblies in Ireland and England, they formed the movement now known as the Plymouth Brethren.

It is believed that John Nelson Darby left the Church of Ireland around 1831.[4] He participated in the 1831–33 Powerscourt Conference, an annual meeting of Bible students organized by his friend,[5] the wealthy widow Lady Powerscourt (Theodosia Wingfield Powerscourt). At the conference Darby publicly described his ecclesiological and eschatological views, including the pretribulation rapture.[6] For about 40 years William Kelly (1821–1906) was his chief interpreter and continued to be a staunch supporter until his own death. Kelly in his work John Nelson Darby as I knew him stated that "a saint more true to Christ's name and word I never knew or heard of".

Darby saw the invention of the telegraph as a sign that the end of the world was approaching; he called the telegraph an invention of Cain and a harbinger of Armageddon

 

[Straightshot]

"Do you believe that Revelation 3:11-12 is not part of the address to the Church of Philadelphia?"


The Lord's 7 letters are to the whole professing "church" that has been developing over the last 2000 years .... there is no time segmentation and all are still operative and in effect as we speak

Each letter has a specific message for the membership behavior of the entire professing "church" .... direct applications can still be found in the divides of professing Christianity today

You need to learn the applications and to understand that the 6th and 7th apply to all just the same

Know that the Lord has not revealed His dating for coming to deal with the "church" .... He is still waiting

Believe what you want RB, but you are wrong and have been misled by your post-tribulation thinking

 

[Riberra]

"Do you believe that Revelation 3:11-12 is not part of the address to the Church of Philadelphia?"

The Lord's 7 letters are to the professing "church" that has been developing over the last 2000 years

Each letter has a specific message for the membership behavior of the entire professing "church"

But you are the one saying that the Church of Philadelphia is referring to the true Church versus the others Churches ...All address to the 7 Churches end by the same /TO HIM THAT OVERCOME /closure message.

Believe what you want RB, but you are wrong and have been misled by your post-tribulation thinking

Nobody will be taken to Heaven after the resurrection.
When Jesus will descend from Heaven that will be to establish His Kingdom on the Earth.The believers who will be resurrected and the believers still ALIVE and REMAIN at His Coming will reign with Jesus here on Earth.

All the other (good or bad)will be resurrected at the Great White Thone Judgment.

 

[Straightshot]

Your view is way off course RB

 

[Riberra]

Your view is way off course RB

I will return your earlier comment....believe what you want.If you believe that one day you will reign in Heaven you have been totally fooled.God don't need us to reign in Heaven

 

[Straightshot]

"If you can indentify the Bible passages referring to the First woe and the Second woe ,then you should be able to find that the Third woe will be when Satan will be cast out of Heaven"


Here is the correct description positioning of the 3 woes:

Satan's beast and related fallen angels coming to the earth at the beginning of the tribulation [Revelation 9:1-12]

The release of Satan's fallen angels bound at the Euphrates River [Revelation 9:14-21]

The Lord's drawing and destruction of Satan's beast and followers at the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 16:1-16]

 

[Riberra]

"If you can indentify the Bible passages referring to the First woe and the Second woe ,then you should be able to find that the Third woe will be when Satan will be cast out of Heaven"


Here is the correct description positioning of the 3 woes:

Satan's beast and related fallen angels coming to the earth at the beginning of the tribulation [Revelation 9:1-12]

The release of Satan's fallen angels bound at the Euphrates River [Revelation 9:14-21]

The first and second woe are effectively described in Revelation 9 as well as the name of the Beast who will kill the two witnesses Revelation 11.

The third woe is when Satan will be cast out of Heaven mentioned in Revelation 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Straightshot]

Satan will be cast out at the beginning of the tribulation [Revelation 9:1; 8:10; 12:7-9]

And this devil will be the subject and perpetrator of all 3 woes at the Lord's hand to use him and his angels for punishing the unbelieving world

It is during the third woe that he will be drawn and lose his game at Armageddon

 

[Riberra]

"God don't need us to reign in Heaven"

This reality is a privilege son .... not His need

Not only in "heaven" but on the earth during His coming millennial kingdom

You have really gone haywire now

Do you know how many scriptures tell of the believers reign with Him?

You need to find them

Revelation 20:4-6 prove that the dead believers who will be resurrected will NOT reign IN HEAVEN but that they will reign only ON THE EARTH with Jesus during the millennium ...After the millennium New Jerusalem the city of God which have our name written on it Revelation 3:12 will come down from Heaven to the New Earth Revelation 21 only at that moment we will enter it.
Revelation 3:12
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

[klutedavid]

DebkaFiles, December 6, 201

Hello Straightshot.

The old covenant has passed into history.

The theocratic nation of Israel lost the promised land.

The promised land was one of the primary promises
in the old covenant, Israel failed the conditions or words of
the old covenant.

God has terminated the old covenant with ancient Israel.

Modern Israel is a secular nation, no relation to the theocratic
nation of Israel in the time of Christ.

 

[Straightshot]

"The old covenant has passed into history"


Nay .... here are just a few scriptures that refute your position

The following prophecies are all still pending as we speak:

[Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 20:33-44; 36; 37; 38; 39; Daniel 9; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12]

Are you a replacement theologist?