Israel bars Congress members who support boycott from entering.

Aldebaran

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How about using access to loved ones as leverage against free speech? Is that perhaps not the larger issue here?

That's changing the question. Allow me to do it as well: How about using the excuse of seeing one's poor grandmother as a way to gain access to a country in order to bad-mouth that country (our ally, no less) and then come back home and use that opposition to gain points with her political base?
 
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D.A. Wright

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It's not the Israeli reaction that is important here. Israel is free to do as Israel wants to do! That is all well and good.

What is a problem is that the President of the United States appears to be working AGAINST AMERICAN LEGISLATORS and on behalf of (yet again) a foreign nation. Whether Trump asked Netanyahu to make sure they were kept out or not isn't even really the point.

Trump needs to remember that he can have political differences with Dems in the House...but, as has been said before, political differences stop at our shores.

Trump should be reminded HE IS AN AMERICAN, not a Russian, not an Israeli, not a North Korean. That he works for and on behalf of ALL OF US AMERICANS.
Why don't you tell him that yourself?
 
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Belk

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That's changing the question. Allow me to do it as well: How about using the excuse of seeing one's poor grandmother as a way to gain access to a country in order to bad-mouth that country (our ally, no less) and then come back home and use that opposition to gain points with her political base?
Very well. Let us explore your question and then we can explore mine? Fair enough?

My initial response is how have you determined this was a cynical move on her part for political power. How do you know this was the case or is this a motive you are imputing to her?
 
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Aldebaran

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Very well. Let us explore your question and then we can explore mine? Fair enough?

My initial response is how have you determined this was a cynical move on her part for political power. How do you know this was the case or is this a motive you are imputing to her?

That's not a response. It's simply another question. But I'll answer it. If she didn't want to go there to oppose Israel and was genuinely interested in going there to visit her grandmother, then she wouldn't have any reason to consider it to be so "oppressive" to not be allowed to oppose the country her grandmother lived in. Here are her own words:

“Visiting my grandmother under these oppressive conditions stands against everything I believe in—fighting against racism, oppression & injustice,”

Apparently, visiting family isn't one of the things she believes in.

She also said:
“Being silent and not condemning the human rights violations of the Israeli government is a disservice to all who live there, including my incredibly strong and loving grandmother,”

Now we have it from her about what her purpose was for going there.
Rep. Rashida Tlaib rejects Israel's offer to let her visit West Bank — 'it would kill a piece of me'
 
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Belk

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That's not a response. It's simply another question.

It is a request for clarification since I disagree with some of the underlying assumptions built in to the question. Thank you for responding.

But I'll answer it. If she didn't want to go there to oppose Israel and was genuinely interested in going there to visit her grandmother, then she wouldn't have any reason to consider it to be so "oppressive" to not be allowed to oppose the country her grandmother lived in. Here are her own words:

“Visiting my grandmother under these oppressive conditions stands against everything I believe in—fighting against racism, oppression & injustice,”


Apparently, visiting family isn't one of the things she believes in.

It's not? Because she refused to abandon her principles to visit her family? I don't agree with your argument here. Not making something your top priority over all else does not mean you don't value it.

She also said:
“Being silent and not condemning the human rights violations of the Israeli government is a disservice to all who live there, including my incredibly strong and loving grandmother,”

Now we have it from her about what her purpose was for going there.
Rep. Rashida Tlaib rejects Israel's offer to let her visit West Bank — 'it would kill a piece of me'


OK. She was there to condemn human rights violations. I fail to see how this establishes that she is using it for political power?
 
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Aldebaran

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It's not? Because she refused to abandon her principles to visit her family? I don't agree with your argument here. Not making something your top priority over all else does not mean you don't value it.

Visiting her grandmother rather than grandstanding at some event where she gets to make some kind of speech in front of a crowd condemning Israel is hardly abandoning a principle. I've got relatives in states where gun laws are very restrictive. Should I not visit them on the principle that I don't like their laws? Or are family relationships more important than bad-mouthing the place they live?

OK. She was there to condemn human rights violations.

Then visiting her grandmother was clearly not high on her list of priorities. Condemnation and boycotting comes first.

I fail to see how this establishes that she is using it for political power?

Who do you think her Twitter account is meant to be viewed by?

Rashida Tlaib‏Verified account @RashidaTlaib Aug 16
Silencing me & treating me like a criminal is not what she wants for me. It would kill a piece of me. I have decided that visiting my grandmother under these oppressive conditions stands against everything I believe in--fighting against racism, oppression & injustice.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Don't we? What's all this about Trump's "hate-speech" that he was condemned by the House democrats for?
Condemning someone's speech isn't punishment unless it has actual consequences. Without consequence, it's simply the House Democrats exercising their own right to free speech.
 
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SammyClifnote

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To work in favor of all Americans does not mean accepting the views and actions of those who do not act in the best interest of all Americans. Trump believes and stated publicly (which he shouldn't have done) that the congress folks wanting to go to Israel in violation of their laws in order to speak in favor of a boycott was NOT in the in interest of ALL Americans, especially when such action is clearly an effort to speak against the government 3 weeks before an election.
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Perhaps we should invite/allow members of the Israeli parliament to speak at Democratic rallies against Trump in October of next year.

Trump should keep it within the borders of the US. But he forgets which country employs him
 
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mark46

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I believe that lots of presidents would have called their counterpart in Israel regard members of Congress visiting, especially that who have openly opposed the government and we sponsored by organizations that opposed the government. To me, the issue is that Trump refuses to make these contracts privately.

Trump should keep it within the borders of the US. But he forgets which country employs him
 
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SammyClifnote

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I believe that lots of presidents would have called their counterpart in Israel regard members of Congress visiting, especially that who have openly opposed the government and we sponsored by organizations that opposed the government. To me, the issue is that Trump refuses to make these contracts privately.

Yet more "justification" for something that if Obama had done it would cause the Right to lose its collective mind.

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. Trump doesn't deserve "justification" for his actions...he didn't do anything that required thought. He just acted. He saw people who didn't make him happy and he started punching. He used racist language to denigrate their status as American citizens and now he's asking foreign leaders to treat Americans badly.

I'm sorry but that isn't good, no matter how it is justified.
 
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Aldebaran

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Condemning someone's speech isn't punishment unless it has actual consequences. Without consequence, it's simply the House Democrats exercising their own right to free speech.

Fine. Then the House democrats did a political stunt, even while accusing Trump of the same.
 
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Aldebaran

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Trump should keep it within the borders of the US. But he forgets which country employs him

We live on a globe, with a global economy and global politics. We're not isolationist.
 
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Belk

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Visiting her grandmother rather than grandstanding at some event where she gets to make some kind of speech in front of a crowd condemning Israel is hardly abandoning a principle.

You are correct. It is the right of free speech she would be abandoning. You know? The one were the government does not have the power to silence you?

I've got relatives in states where gun laws are very restrictive. Should I not visit them on the principle that I don't like their laws?
Should you have the right to go to these states and state your opinion on the laws they enact?

Or are family relationships more important than bad-mouthing the place they live?
Again with the false dichotomy. Reiterating it will not change my objection to your characterization.


Then visiting her grandmother was clearly not high on her list of priorities. Condemnation and boycotting comes first.
Free speech is more important. Do you disagree?

Who do you think her Twitter account is meant to be viewed by?

Rashida Tlaib‏Verified account @RashidaTlaib Aug 16
Silencing me & treating me like a criminal is not what she wants for me. It would kill a piece of me. I have decided that visiting my grandmother under these oppressive conditions stands against everything I believe in--fighting against racism, oppression & injustice.

I'm sorry Aldebaran, but you will have to explain why I should find this damning because I'm not seeing how this informs me it is a cynical grab for power?
 
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SammyClifnote

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We live on a globe, with a global economy and global politics. We're not isolationist.

That has nothing to do with how we deal with internal debates. Trump just doesn't know how normal people live their lives.

As I said; if I were to go slag my co-workers while talking to an external partner company I'd probably be disciplined. If I worked with the external partner company to ensure that my coworkers were somehow treated badly then my employer would probably fire me.

That doesn't mean that companies don't work together.
 
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DaisyDay

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Perhaps we should invite/allow members of the Israeli parliament to speak at Democratic rallies against Trump in October of next year.
The Republicans did indeed invite Bibi to speak during the previous administration even though Bibi spoke ill of Obama.
 
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SammyClifnote

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Israel has enough money enough for socialized medicine....

Oh those poor people. I hope Trump can help them achieve a better life where fewer Israelis can get healthcare. That is how you make a country GREAT. (One assumes).
 
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