Israel and the Church

VictoryProcured

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In contrast to Classic Dispensationalism, Covenant Theology has always maintained the essential continuity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This continuity can be shown by examining a few Old Testament prophesies:

Promise to Israel - "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' -Hosea 1:10
Fulfillment in the church - What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." -Romans :22-26

Promise to Israel - Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!'" -Hosea 2:23
Fulfillment in the church - But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. -1 Peter 2:9-10

Promise to Israel - "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; -Amos 9:11
Fulfillment in the church - "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things..' "Known to God from eternity are all His works. -Acts 15:14-18

In the same manner there are many Old Testament passages referring to Israel that are in the New Testament applied directly to the church.

Spoken to Israel - "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.. -Joel 2:28-32
Applied to the church - When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place..."But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' -Acts 2:1,16-21

Spoken to Israel - 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." -Exodus 19:6
Applied to the church - But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; -1 Peter 2:9

Spoken to Israel - "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. -Ezekiel 37:27
Applied to the church - And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." -2 Cor 6:16

Spoken to Israel - "Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy. -Lev 19:2
Applied to the church - but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." -1 Peter 1:15-16

Spoken to Israel - "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- -Jer 31:31
Applied to the church - Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. -Luke 22:20.

Obviously, this is merely a brief summary of these prominent views and in no wise should be considered exhaustive. But, I think I laid out the foundational elements of each eschatological paradigm enough to where we all understand what each means. Now that we have succinctly laid the foundational elements concerning the prominent views of Israel and the Church, here is what I have concluded:

I believe that the Classic Dispensational view possesses a myriad of problems that cannot be explained away by crafty hermeneutics or distorting Greek methods. This view ushers forth the notion that in no way is the Church ever referred to as Israel and visa versa. But, as we have seen there are numerous instances from Scripture by where an Old Testament promise of blessing directed at Israel was referred to and or fulfilled in the New Testament by the Church.

Classic Dispensationalism says that God is not interacting with Israel at this time and will not till this "church age" has consummated with the removal of the Church before the Tribulation period. Certain things have and are occurring in Israel's history since the Day of Pentecost that are the direct fulfillment of prophecy. This makes the traditional dispensational 'parenthetical' theory untenable.

We are not in a parenthetical age or a "church age" by where God is only focusing His attention on the Church.

a. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was the direct fulfillment of Daniel 9:26.
b. The regathering of Israel into their land is the likely fulfillment of Ezekiel 37.
c. God is also using the salvation of the Gentiles to provoke (unbelieving) Israel to jealousy. [Rom. 10:18,19 & 11:11].

Tim Warner an advocate of Progressive Dispensationalism says the following: If the present dispensation is a 'parenthesis' in God's plan for Israel, and the Church is not related to OT prophecy, we would not expect New Testament writers to apply Old Testament prophecy to the Church. Yet, there are many examples of this very thing. The most obvious example is the Day of Pentecost, where Peter interpreted the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Church as the direct fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. Notice, Peter said, "this IS that which was spoken by the prophet Joel." [Acts 2:15-21]. Peter's application of Joel fits right in with Progressive Dispensationalism. A few other noteworthy cases of Old Testament prophecy directly applied to the Church, are as follows: Acts 10:43, Acts 15:14-18, Rom. 1:1,2, Rom. 4:13-17,23,24, Rom. 9:32,33, Rom. 15:4,8-10, 2 Cor. 6:16-7:1.
The Church and Israel are not separate identities, so Classical Dispensationalism must be dismissed as a viable explanation of Israel and the Church.

Covenant Theology or Supersessionism has been a prominent position for centuries and possesses a list of very famous names that have been adherents to this particular paradigm. This view that the Church has replaced Israel as the people of God and that the promises made towards Israel have been and shall continue to be fulfilled in the New Testament Church. Though, this is a very strong position I still find some problems with it.
There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, "the Church," where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." If you put "the Church" where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul's prayer be for the Church to be saved? Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God's promises of Canaan to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3. Jeremiah 31:35-37 speaks of the everlasting nature of God's promises to and for Israel, the Jewish people, which is as sure as the sun that shines by day and the moon and stars that glow in the night. Adherents to Covenant Theology seem to overlook one major problem........if Covenant Theology is true then it reflects upon the character of God in a very terrifying way.
God's promises to Israel were unconditional and not dependent upon Israel’s faith or lack of faith. Now, having said that, it is true that the Church has been the fulfillment of numerous OT passages and it is true that Israel has failed God through her disobedience, but God's faithfulness of her is still intact and God continues to deal with Israel in this present age and also the Church and in the end times He will deal with Israel in a more deeper way.

I believe that Progressive Dispensationalism proposes the least amount of difficulties in explaining this quandary of Israel and the Church. It is the position where the difficulties of both Classic Dispensationalism and Replacement Theology are eradicated and the biblical balance that this view necessitates is met. As we have seen, Israel and the Church are not distinct camps (the numerous OT passages directed at Israel and fulfilled in the Church in the NT), thus as we can see Israel and the Church are being used at times in an interchangeable manner. And as we have also seen the Church has not replaced Israel as the people of God (for God is still dealing with Israel as we have seen with the 3 points of reference above....and that God's covenant promises are eternal)......therefore there is the middle ground by which the Church has been grafted into the vine along with Israel and together God deals with both entities. There is not a distinction between Israel and the Church relationally, but there is a distinction between them functionally. That is to say, the Church as been grafted into the vine and now there is no difference between Israel and the Church relationally……”there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:28-29).

There would be no distinction functionally between Israel and the Church if the Church has replaced Israel, which it has not. God did not cast Israel aside, or withdraw the offer of the New Covenant because of Israel's rejection. Rather, Jesus established the New Covenant with a believing remnant of Israel, His Jewish disciples. Jesus said to them, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. [Luke 22:20]. In Romans 11, Paul argued strenuously that God has NOT cast Israel aside. "I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. ... Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." [Rom. 11:1,2,5]. Paul's point is NOT that God's program for Israel has been suspended, as Traditional Dispensationalism teaches, or even that God is finished with Israel, as 'Replacement Theology' teaches. Rather, "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." [vs. 25]. Consequently, part of Israel was not blinded. It was with this remnant that Jesus established the New Covenant.[Rom. 11: 16-29] The believing remnant of Israel is still the focus of God, not the whole nation, but the believing remnant.
Paul concluded his thought in Romans eleven with the parable of the Olive Tree. Jews who did not accept Jesus were likened to natural branches broken off of the olive tree. That some natural branches remained in the tree, both before and after the unbelievers were broken off and wild branches grafted in, demonstrates a CONTINUOUS status of believing Jews both before and after Christ. The grafting in of the wild branches shows a uniting of Gentiles with the believing part of Israel. So, in effect, Paul has illustrated a continuation of God's fulfilling His covenants and promises with Israel in this dispensation, albeit with only a remnant.. But, isn't that the way it has always been? Only a small remnant went into the 'promised land.' Only a small remnant returned from the Babylonian captivity. And only a remnant have received the New Covenant.

Let me hear your thoughts

Let the Love of God reign in your hearts always!
Only By His Grace,
Roger
 

ezek33

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I thought this may interest you the view of the original Christian were very similar to what you are calling covenant theology, it is called Historical Premillenniumism and is much different than dispensationalism.

''Historical Premillennialism''
It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, and I believe it is the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.
I believe.....

#1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

#2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

#3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10 and restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Romans 11:25-26. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.

#4 That at the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.

#5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

P.S. The heaven and Earth that exists now will not exists after the White Throne Judgment.
 
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Biblewriter

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I thought this may interest you the view of the original Christian were very similar to what you are calling covenant theology, it is called Historical Premillenniumism and is much different than dispensationalism.

''Historical Premillennialism''
It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, and I believe it is the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.

I find it interesting how many different views are the ones taught by Jesus and the apostles.

This claim is made by the adherents of almost every view. And many of them claim also that their unique view was taught by the early church.
 
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ezek33

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I find it interesting how many different views are the ones taught by Jesus and the apostles.

This claim is made by the adherents of almost every view. And many of them claim also that their unique view was taught by the early church.
Yes but this one is actually named ''HISTORICAL'' Pemillennialism because it is the original ''HISTORICAL'' view of the original ''HISTORICAL'' church.

GOOGLE IT
 
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Biblewriter

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Yes but this one is actually named ''HISTORICAL'' Pemillennialism because it is the original ''HISTORICAL'' view of the original ''HISTORICAL'' church.

GOOGLE IT

Actually, the word "historical" in the term "historical premillennialism" refers to the interpretation of certain prophecies as referring to historical events, and has nothing to do with who believed or taught it, or when.

The truth is that we know very little about what the early church believed, because the medieval church suppressed doctrine that they did not agree with.

We know from the writings of later writers, such as Eusebius, that a man named Papias, who was allegedly taught by the apostle John himself, wrote extensively on prophecy. But all of his writings were destroyed sometime around the thirteenth century or so. We have some prophetic comments by Irenaeus, who was a student of Papias. in addition to this, we have a complaint by Eusebius about how "many" of the early writers followed the (as he believed) erroneous notions of Papias and Irenaeus.

We also have a document whose exact age cannot be clearly determined. Scholars have been able (how, I do not know) to determine that this paper was in existence in the year 627, and that it was not written before the year 324. This document clearly teaches a pre-tribulational rapture, and was at least popular enough that it was translated into three different languages. Google Pseudo-Ephraim to find it.

But who taught a specific doctrine, or when it was taught, is insignificant. The only legitimate question is whether or not the Holy Spirit taught this doctrine. That is, does the Bible teach it?

I have researched the history of some doctrines in great detail, and have found significant doctrines totally reversed within a single group, without the group even knowing that they had reversed their doctrine, in a space of as little as fifty years. The small comments (parts of a much larger document) by Irenaeus are the only Christian comments on prophecy written within fifty years of the time the Bible was complete. So what the church originally taught is a matter of conjecture. The truth is that aside from the scriptures themselves, we do not know what the church originally taught about almost anything.
 
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ezek33

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Actually, the word "historical" in the term "historical premillennialism" refers to the interpretation of certain prophecies as referring to historical events, and has nothing to do with who believed or taught it, or when.

GOOGLE IT
That is simply not true, Historical Premillennialist believe all the prophesies about the end times are still to come not that any have already occured, and I have googled it. I was called a historical premillennialist as an insult a while back, so I googled it and studied the teaching to flaw, and found that #1 I was indeed a historical premillennialist even before I knew what it was, and #2 it was called historical because it was the teaching of the early church.

You google it.

Just some advice you should know what you are speaking about before you speak on it. Google it and then get back to me.
 
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Bible2

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VictoryProcured posted in message #1 of this thread:

We are not in a parenthetical age or a "church age"

Greetings.

Amen. There is no such thing in scripture as "the church age", much
less a "parenthetical church age", for the church will continue
throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21).

VictoryProcured posted in message #1 of this thread:

Covenant Theology or Supersessionism has been a prominent position
for centuries and possesses a list of very famous names that have
been adherents to this particular paradigm. This view that the Church
has replaced Israel as the people of God and that the promises made
towards Israel have been and shall continue to be fulfilled in the New
Testament Church.

This is a mistaken representation of Covenant Theology in its Biblical
form, for Biblical Covenant Theology never refers to anything called
"Supersessionism"; the church has not superseded (or replaced)
Israel. The Jews in the church started out as Israel and still remain
Israel (Romans 11:1). And the elect unbelieving Jews still
remain Israel as well; they will all be saved (and so become part of
the church: Ephesians 4:4-5) at the second coming (Romans
11:25-29), when they see Jesus (Zechariah 12:10-14). So Gentiles
in the church being grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians
2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) hasn't replaced Israel. Nonetheless, it is
perfectly Biblical to say that God does not consider non-elect
unbelieving Jews to be Israel (Romans 9:6-8). Instead, God considers
non-elect unbelieving Jews to be the children of Satan (John
8:39-47), the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 2:9, 3:9), just as God
considers all non-elect people, regardless of whether they are Jews or
Gentiles, to be the children of Satan (Matthew 13:38-39).

"Supersessionism" and "Replacement Theology" are not valid
descriptions of Covenant Theology in its Biblical form, but are instead
epithets designed originally either by some who wished to intentionally
misrepresent the view of Biblical Covenant Theology, or by some who
simply didn't understand Biblical Covenant Theology, and wished to
replace it with something of their own mistaken invention.

Biblical Covenant Theology is the simplest view of all to understand,
when it is focused upon the Biblical New Covenant, from which
Covenant Theology takes it name. The New Covenant is made only
with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and the New Covenant is that
covenant (testament) by which all those in the church, regardless
of whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are saved (Matthew 26:28,
1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15). Jews can
enter into the New Covenant by right of being born into Israel,
but Gentiles are not Israel by birth, and so have to be grafted into
Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) in order
to partake of the eternal salvation which comes only through the New
New Covenant made with Israel (Hebrews 9:15).

VictoryProcured posted in message #1 of this thread:

Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God's promises of Canaan
to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3.

The promise of the land is to Abraham's seed, which is Jesus Christ
himself (Galatians 3:16). So all those who are in Christ, regardless
of whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are the seed of Abraham and
heirs of the promise (Galatians 3:29). If even strangers to Israel
can inherit the land of the twelve tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23),
then how much more will those who are "no more strangers" to Israel
(Ephesians 2:12,19) inherit the land of Israel? Indeed, the entire
church, both Jews and Gentiles, will not only inherit the land of
Israel, but will rule over all the lands of the earth with Jesus during
the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6).
 
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JDS

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But who taught a specific doctrine, or when it was taught, is insignificant. The only legitimate question is whether or not the Holy Spirit taught this doctrine. That is, does the Bible teach it?

BINGO! I know God and I know how he thinks. I am not surprised that he allowed correct teaching from the early years to be destroyed so men with the right heart would need to get their doctrine from his word. He did make sure to preserve it meticulously and perfectly. How would it be better if one of those writers of the NT were to be sent back by God to earth to teach us? He would say the exact same thing he wrote and he would still have to believe what the other NT writers wrote.

Each generation is responsible to believe the word of God, not what the previous generation taught. There has been a subtle attack on the word of God from the very beginning and there was a dark ages when the ministers of darkness suppressed the word from the laity.

The people who are having trouble believing God on this forum are by and large those who regularly quote bygone generations and are instructed out of their books. The errors and false doctrines of these men are perpetuated in this manner and are accepted now as gospel truth by groups who follow them and even the bible cannot correct them.

There were, in the early church, false apostles who taught false doctrines and they had ministers who presented themselves as ministers of righteousness and spoke great swelling words and held men's persons in admiration. These men were inspired, but not by God. Their words are preserved, but not by the Holy Spirit. They taught another Jesus besides the historical Son of God, who could not save. These ministers are often quoted as if they were the real ministers of God and thousands upon millions have followed them and are continuing to do so. The same people who preserved these words felt it necessary to destroy the words of the opposition. Does anyone see a pattern here?

A great irony of all of this is that Satan corrupted the preserved words of God down in Egypt and preserved it in his own manuscript and then when his deception was almost complete, he allowed it to be found and edited and translated and presented to his unsuspecting followers as better than God's! Many are quoting from this manuscript as if it is what God said. This is true darkness!

The reason men cannot understand God now is because they are blinded by religion. They do not know what God said because they do not have his words. They are instructed by men of the past who did not know God. The only thing God can do to preserve even a remnant is to eventually kill all those whom he cannot convert. He will do this in the great tribulation and then he will set up his kingdom on earth with the residue of men who survive by being converted in it.

He said these words one time;

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Mt 13:33

Leaven in scripture is false doctrine and corrupting influences: A woman who feeds her corrupt bread to all three families of the earth is readily identifiable.

The word of God is our true source for truth. We have as much ability of understanding as anyone of the past. Actually, we have more because we have fullfilled prophecy they did not have to bear witness to us.
My advice is to get on God's side!
 
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Biblewriter

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Originally Posted by Biblewriter
Actually, the word "historical" in the term "historical premillennialism" refers to the interpretation of certain prophecies as referring to historical events, and has nothing to do with who believed or taught it, or when.

GOOGLE IT
That is simply not true, Historical Premillennialist believe all the prophesies about the end times are still to come not that any have already occured, and I have googled it. I was called a historical premillennialist as an insult a while back, so I googled it and studied the teaching to flaw, and found that #1 I was indeed a historical premillennialist even before I knew what it was, and #2 it was called historical because it was the teaching of the early church.

You google it.

Just some advice you should know what you are speaking about before you speak on it. Google it and then get back to me.

From Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs

The historical premillennialist's view interprets some prophecy in Scripture as having literal fulfillment while others demand a semi-symbolic fulfillment. As a case in point, the seal judgments (Revelation 6) are viewed as having fulfillment in the forces in history (rather than in future powers) by which God works out his redemptive and judicial purposes leading up to the end.

Rather than the belief of an imminent return of Christ, it is held that a number of historical events (e.g., the rise of the Beast and the False Prophet) must take place before Christ's Second Coming. This Second Coming will be accompanied by the resurrection and rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18); this will inaugurate the millennial reign of Christ. The Jewish nation, while being perfectly able to join the church in the belief of a true faith in Christ, has no distinct redemptive plan as they would in the dispensational perspective. The duration of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-6) is unsure: literal or metaphorical.
 
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Hismessenger

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The church is Israel by virtue of the marriage of God to His people. Israel was His chosen bride and Christ is the offspring of that union. The first born of the church. The woman gave birth to the man child who was caught up to heaven and now sits at the right hand of the father making intercession for us. The woman is the church, Israel of the old testament. This was the mystery which was hidden but is now revealed.

hismessenger
 
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Bible2

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Hismessenger posted in message #11 of this thread:

The church is Israel by virtue of the marriage of God to His people.
Israel was His chosen bride and Christ is the offspring of that union.
The first born of the church.

Greetings.

Note that the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b) by virtue of all
Jews in the church remaining Israel by birth (Romans 11:1), and all
Gentiles in the church becoming grafted into Israel by faith (Romans
11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is necessary
because the New Covenant/Testament by which everyone in the
church is saved (Matthew 26:28) is made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34).

Hismessenger posted in message #11 of this thread:

The woman gave birth to the man child who was caught up to
heaven and now sits at the right hand of the father making
intercession for us.

Note that the man-child being caught up to heaven (Revelation 12:5)
is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). It
refers to the 144,000 male-virgins (Revelation 14:4) part of the
church being caught up to heaven (Revelation 14:5) mid-tribulation,
right before the 1,260 days of the world-reign of the Antichrist
(Revelation 12:6, cf. 13:5b).

Hismessenger posted in message #11 of this thread:

The woman is the church, Israel of the old testament.

Note that the woman in Revelation 12 is the New Covenant/Testament
Church/Israel, seen clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of
righteousness (cf. Malachi 4:2), just as later she is seen clothed
with righteousness (Revelation 19:8), that righteousness which
comes through faith in Jesus (Romans 3:22) and his New
Covenant/Testament sacrifice for our sins on the Cross (Romans
3:25, Matthew 26:28). The twelve stars set over the woman in
Revelation 12:1 would then be the twelve apostles set over the New
Covenant/Testament Church/Israel (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew
19:28, Luke 22:30). And the moon under the feet of the woman in
Revelation 12:1 would then represent Satan under the feet of the
New Covenant/Testament Church/Israel (Romans 16:20, cf.
Revelation 12:11).
 
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Covenant Heart

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It's Appreciated.

As is the breadth of your material.

My take? Neither dichotomy nor replacement.

There has always been one church, which has existed since the beginning of the world. It time, it was revealed in the promise made to Abraham. By faith in Christ, we are grafted into that one, Abrahamic church.

God has not cast off his people, but has graciously included us in it. There was never a time when this was not the case. But under the older administration of the covenant, MOST of the people in the church were Hebrews whereas today, most are Gentiles.
 
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Zadok7000

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the elect unbelieving Jews

No such thing. Elect and unbelieving are mutually exclusive terms.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

The Elect have never been, are not now, nor will they ever be, rejectors of Christ.
 
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Hismessenger

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The Apostle Paul was sold out for God and The Mosaic law. He had the zeal but lacked the understanding until His encounter on the road to Damascus, when His eyes became truly open to the truth of God in Christ. He was leaning to his own understanding and self righteousness before he was converted. That is what made him such and awesome apostle. He gave the same zeal to Christ as he mistakenly had for the Mosaic law and Christ knew that. That is why He was called and he will be one of the twelve who sit upon the thrones judging the masses of earth.

hismessenger
 
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Bible2

Guest
Covenant Heart posted in message #13 of this thread:

God has not cast off his people

Greetings.

God has cast off unbelieving Jews, until they come into belief, just
as God can cast off believing Gentiles for laziness or apostasy or
unrepentant sin: "because of unbelief they [some Jews] were broken
off, and thou [believing Gentiles] standest by faith. Be not
highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the
goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but
toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise
thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in
unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,
and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how
much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed
into their own olive tree?" (Romans 11:20-24). "Every branch in me
that beareth not fruit he taketh away" (John 15:2). "If a man abide
not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men
gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
(John 15:6); "and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord
delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and
to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall
come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is
not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion
with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
(Matthew 24:48-51).
 
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Bible2

Guest
Zadok7000 posted in message #14 of this thread:

Elect and unbelieving are mutually exclusive terms.

Greetings.

Note that elect and unbelieving are not mutually exclusive terms, for
all of the elect Jews who are enemies of the gospel will become
believers and be saved at the second coming of Jesus: "And so all
Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion
the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this
is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As
concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes"
(Romans 11:26-28).
 
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Bible2

Guest
Hismessenger posted in message #16 of this thread:

He gave the same zeal to Christ as he mistakenly had for the Mosaic
law and Christ knew that. That is why He was called

Greetings.

Paul was at the same time called to be an apostle for the exact
opposite reason: to show that God in his mercy can save and turn
into an apostle even the chief of sinners: "And I thank Christ Jesus
our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful,
putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a
persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it
ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding
abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a
faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus
came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit
for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might
shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should
hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Timothy 1:12-16).

But regarding the salvation of the elect, they are not chosen by God
to be shown his mercy based on their prior works, for "Not by works
of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he
saved us" (Titus 3:5); "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The elect are chosen by God
to be shown his mercy before they are born, before they have done
anything at all: "(For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth), it was said unto
her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I
loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there
unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will
have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the
scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I
raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my
name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he
mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who
hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest
against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why
hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto
dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of
his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto
glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also
of the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:11-24).
 
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Zadok7000

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Greetings.
Note that elect and unbelieving are not mutually exclusive terms,

Actually they unequivocally are. Never the twain shall meet.

Study Romans 8:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And Colossians 3:
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God...And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him...Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And 1Pet 1:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ


for all of the elect Jews who are enemies of the gospel will become
believers and be saved at the second coming of Jesus: "And so all
Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion
the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this
is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As
concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes"
(Romans 11:26-28).

1. Nothing in Romans 11 specifies the Jews, but rather all Israel (ALL 12 TRIBES, hence Jacob, not just Judah).
2. Nothing is said about the 2nd coming. They will all be saved by the end of the Millennium, yes.
3. Some of the Elect are of Judah, no argument there. But most are not.
 
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