Israel, Abraham, and Modern Times

[Guojing]

What do you mean?

How else can a person interpret "never lack a man seated on the throne" other than to mean that either David himself or his promised descendant (Son of David - Jesus) would occupy the throne. IOW...."never lack" = always occupied.

you forgot that the word shall implies future tense?

 

[Timtofly]

What do you mean?

How else can a person interpret "never lack a man seated on the throne" other than to mean that either David himself or his promised descendant (Son of David - Jesus) would occupy the throne. IOW...."never lack" = always occupied.

Are you complaining there is not a kingdom?

 

[parousia70]

I already said the rapture is not found in books outside Romans to Philemon.

you are setting up a straw man

This has nothing to do with that.
This has to do with this false statement you made in your post #64:

I just read the bible literally.

You, sir, do no such thing.

 

[mkgal1]

Are you complaining there is not a kingdom?

No.....I am attempting to show that those promises and prophecies show that - when compared to the reality of history - David's throne that his promised descendant (Jesus - Son of David) sits on is not on earth (nor will it ever be).

There *is* a kingdom....but it's not "of this world". It's a spiritual kingdom.....and the way heaven and earth have met....joined together....are through His Church on earth. His "new stones" that make up His new Temple with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

 

[mkgal1]

you forgot that the word shall implies future tense?

It was a Messianic promise and a prophecy.

It would be like someone saying before you were born, "Guojing shall never lack sufficient food and water". Would that have been fulfilled accurately if you'd died of dehydration?

 

[mkgal1]

The 4 gospels account are literal statements of what Jesus said and done most of the time.

As Parousia70 is pointing out - going by your stated beliefs - you don't take Jesus's words literally.....because He said things like this:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"
(Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32)​

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
(Matthew 16:28)​

.....and John wrote things like (which I doubt are actually taken literally by those that make the claim that they just read the Bible literally):

1 John 4:3
...and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.​

 

[parousia70]

No.....I am attempting to show that those promises and prophecies show that - when compared to the reality of history - David's throne that his promised descendant (Jesus - Son of David) sits on is not on earth (nor will it ever be).

There *is* a kingdom....but it's not "of this world". It's a spiritual kingdom.....and the way heaven and earth have met....joined together....are through His Church on earth. His "new stones" that make up His new Temple with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

Indeed.
Acts 2:30-32 alone proves Christ now sits on David's throne in heaven.

 

[parousia70]

As Parousia70 is pointing out - going by your stated beliefs - you don't take Jesus's words literally.....because He said things like this:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"
(Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32)​

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
(Matthew 16:28)​

.....and John wrote things like (which I doubt are actually taken literally by those that make the claim that they just read the Bible literally):

1 John 4:3
...and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.​

One of the most curious things is the claim so many make that "I just read the Bible literally", then when you point out that such a claim requires they read verses like these literally, they say .."well...um.... but..."

The truth is, NOBODY reads the Bible literally... everyone spiritualizes certain passages... the trouble comes when you have to spiritualize passages like the ones above to make scripture fit your view, without any scriptural instruction or precedent to do so.

 

[mkgal1]

Indeed.
Acts 2:30-32 alone proves Christ now sits on David's throne in heaven.

Exactly!

Just in case this passage has been torn out of the futurist's Bibles, I'll quote it here....it's such a powerful reading:

Acts 2:29-
29Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne.(h) 31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,

“Sit at My right hand35until I make Your enemies

a footstool for Your feet.” ’(i)​

​

36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”​

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”​

 

[Guojing]

This has nothing to do with that.
This has to do with this false statement you made in your post #64:



You, sir, do no such thing.

As I said, if you insist.

 

[Guojing]

Indeed.
Acts 2:30-32 alone proves Christ now sits on David's throne in heaven.

From your doctrine, yes, you believe it proves.

Because you do not accept that God has interrupted the OT prophecy program, to reveal a new dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9)

 

[Guojing]

As Parousia70 is pointing out - going by your stated beliefs - you don't take Jesus's words literally.....because He said things like this:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"
(Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32)​

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
(Matthew 16:28)​

.....and John wrote things like (which I doubt are actually taken literally by those that make the claim that they just read the Bible literally):

1 John 4:3
...and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.​

Because you do not accept that God has interrupted the OT prophecy program, to reveal a new dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9).

Jesus did not reveal that interruption in Matthew 24:34, even though as God, he knew that would happen later.

 

[mkgal1]

One of the most curious things is the claim so many make that "I just read the Bible literally", then when you point out that such a claim requires they read verses like these literally, they say .."well...um.... but..."

Please stand by.......

As I said, if you insist.

From your doctrine, yes, you believe it proves.

Because you do not accept that God has interrupted the OT prophecy program, to reveal a new dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9)

Because you do not accept that God has interrupted the OT prophecy program, to reveal a new dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9).

Jesus did not reveal that interruption in Matthew 24:34, even though as God, he knew that would happen later.

Like that, Parousia70?

 

[parousia70]

As I said, if you insist.

If you disagree, please provide your literal interpretation of Revelation 1:1-3

 

[parousia70]

From your doctrine, yes, you believe it proves.

Because you do not accept that God has interrupted the OT prophecy program, to reveal a new dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9)

I love Ephesians chapter 3!

Being a literalist, I trust you agree with Paul when he sums this up at the end of the Chapter, infallibly testifying that the church age dispensation of grace LITERALLY lasts “forever and ever”:
Ephesians3:21
Unto him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Amen indeed! What an amazing God we have!

 

[jgr]

From your doctrine, yes, you believe it proves.

Because you do not accept that God has interrupted the OT prophecy program, to reveal a new dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9)

What recognized saints of the historical true Church from the 2nd to the 19th centuries can you cite who believed that God "interrupted the OT prophecy program"?

Names, dates, quotes, sources; please.

 

[Guojing]

What recognized saints of the historical true Church from the 2nd to the 19th centuries can you cite who believed that God "interrupted the OT prophecy program"?

Names, dates, quotes, sources; please.

Romans 11:11 already said it, as I have used many times with you.

The OT prophetic program was that gentiles are to be saved thru the rise of Israel. (Zechariah 8)

Yet, even though Israel has currently fallen, salvation has come to the gentiles (Romans 11:11)

That is the interruption staring at you, but of course, no one can force you to accept that if you don't wish to.

 

[jgr]

Romans 11:11 already said it, as I have used many times with you.

The OT prophetic program was that gentiles are to be saved thru the rise of Israel. (Zechariah 8)

Yet, even though Israel has currently fallen, salvation has come to the gentiles (Romans 11:11)

That is the interruption staring at you, but of course, no one can force you to accept that if you don't wish to.

What recognized saints of the historical true Church from the 2nd to the 19th centuries cited Romans 11:11, or Zechariah 8, or any Scripture at all, as proof that God "interrupted the OT prophecy program"?

Names, dates, quotes, sources, of those recognized saints; please.

Saints like Clement, or Ignatius, or Polycarp.

Saints like Irenaeus, or Tertullian, or Eusebius.

Saints like those.

 

[Guojing]

What recognized saints of the historical true Church from the 2nd to the 19th centuries cited Romans 11:11, or Zechariah 8, or any Scripture at all, as proof that God "interrupted the OT prophecy program"?

Names, dates, quotes, sources, of those recognized saints; please.

Saints like Clement, or Ignatius, or Polycarp.

Saints like Irenaeus, or Tertullian, or Eusebius.

Saints like those.

Why do you need saints for that, when Paul is our apostle and he told us that himself (Romans 2:16)?

 

[jgr]

Why do you need saints for that, when Paul is our apostle and he told us that himself (Romans 2:16)?

Do we need saints today?