Israel, Abraham, and Modern Times

[mkgal1]

I'll probably need to leave that discussion to you, mkgal1, because I think my patience will be exhausted after dealing with "going thru".

Your posts were very helpful to the discussion, JGR. I think the necessary points have already been demonstrated about what dispensationalism asserts....so I'm honestly not sure how much more discussion is needed.

 

[mkgal1]

The scripture that I used clearly quoted him going thru the Jews, and the latter were the ones who appealed to him, that he was deserving.

Ages ago I learned about how we see what we're told to look for. This exercise seems to be pertinent here:

"Its easy to miss what you're not looking for"....probably even more difficult to see what you're trying to prove isn't there.

 

[Guojing]

Your presumption of Scripture is not sufficient. Until you can demonstrate its acceptance within the annals of sound doctrine of the true Church, it is nothing more than a private interpretation.

Let's be specific. Provide a quote, name, source, and date of any recognized apologist of the true Church who believed that the centurion's servant was healed because the centurion "went thru" (Christ-hating) Jews.

Who are the ones you would considered to be "recognized apologist of the true Church"?

 

[Guojing]

Ages ago I learned about how we see what we're told to look for. This exercise seems to be pertinent here:

"Its easy to miss what you're not looking for"....probably even more difficult to see what you're trying to prove isn't there.

I just read the bible literally. And there are already 4 examples I have given.

I do recognize the bible principle that you should not just take a single example to form doctrine but when there are already 4 different examples of the same principle over different time periods, and you still don't want to see it, well, there is nothing else I can do.

We can move on from this point then.

 

[mkgal1]

I just read the bible literally.

......and that's a problem considering the Bible is mostly based on ancient Hebrew poetry.

 

[Guojing]

......and that's a problem considering the Bible is mostly based on ancient Hebrew poetry.

The 4 gospels account are literal statements of what Jesus said and done most of the time.

So when you read the Mark account of the Canaanite women, when she replied that she as a dog also can eat the crumbs of the bread that falls from the Jewish children's table, and Jesus replied to her that she got her healing because of what she said, you just ignore that as "ancient Hebrew poetry"?

 

[jgr]

Who are the ones you would considered to be "recognized apologist of the true Church"?

Early Church Fathers, Reformers, Calvin, Clarke, Henry, Barnes, Wesley, etc.

 

[Guojing]

Early Church Fathers, Reformers, Calvin, Clarke, Henry, Barnes, Wesley, etc.

Interesting, you regard John Calvin as one of them?

You subscribed to TULIP?

 

[jgr]

Interesting, you regard John Calvin as one of them?

You subscribed to TULIP?

What does TULIP have to do with the centurion?

 

[mkgal1]

The 4 gospels account are literal statements of what Jesus said and done most of the time.

And just about every quote of Jesus is from the old testament.

 

[Guojing]

What does TULIP have to do with the centurion?

It has nothing to do with it, I didn't say it had, but you mentioned John Calvin as one of those you regard as "recognized apologist of the true Church"?

Does that mean u subscribe to TULIP?

 

[Guojing]

And just about every quote of Jesus is from the old testament.

So what about the exchange he had with the Canaanite lady, as I had asked?

 

[jgr]

It has nothing to do with it, I didn't say it had, but you mentioned John Calvin as one of those you regard as "recognized apologist of the true Church"?

Does that mean u subscribe to TULIP?

No.

 

[Junia]

Yes good scriptures...

Personally I cant understand how believers justify supporting the building of a third temple.

I have no calling to speak on end times - I just observe the circus.

Is the present Israel a counterfeit? Time will tell...

Should we have a heart for the Jews?

Yes.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Agree. I know there are Jews returning to modem day Israel from all over the earth especially the former USSR. could that Biblically be the land of the North mentioned in prophecies?

 

[Junia]

Right, and since Jesus came; He is the 'Jew', the Israel who we must go thru to obtain Salvation.
Your belief that those who call themselves Jews have any special favor with God, is totally unfounded.

“Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you…,” so the old children’s song goes. Although it’s a silly song that requires the raising of arms, legs, and the nodding of heads, the song’s theology is unquestionably biblical.

In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all. Galatians 3:26-29

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people. Romans 2:28–29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14


Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God. Romans 9:23-26

I
true Israelites are those who obey the Lord. Not anything to do with race. She Jesus mentioned the false Jews , the shul of Satan, he was basically saying these were Jews who were Jews outwardly but did not keep the law in their hearts. Circumcised physically, Jewish ethnically, but far from God in their hearts


Even the stones can claim to be descendents of abraham! It is not as simple as a race thing.

 

[parousia70]

I just read the bible literally.

So you must be a preterist then?

 

[Guojing]

So you must be a preterist then?

I am pre trib

 

[BABerean2]

I am pre trib

That creates quite a paradox with scripture, as revealed below by a former pretrib believer.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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[Guojing]

That creates quite a paradox with scripture, as revealed below by a former pretrib believer.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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Since we are always the protagonist in our own movie, we tend to view those who oppose us as the antagonist and thus they are always wrong, by definition

 

[BABerean2]

Since we are always the protagonist in our own movie, we tend to view those who oppose us as the antagonist and thus they are always wrong, by definition

Any person who claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people through the sacrifice of His Son at Calvary, cannot be anything other than wrong.

The true movie is revealed by Christ's last three words on the cross.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Anyone who has to ignore the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6 has revealed his doctrine for what it really is.

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