Israel, Abraham, and Modern Times

[Guojing]

Quote the Scriptures which you are claiming to be applicable.

Rahab was blessed because she helped the nation Israel hid the spies, and thru marriage to one of Joshua's generals.

Ruth was blessed thru marriage to the kinsman redeemer Boaz.

The Roman Centurion was helped by Jesus because he helped the Jews build their synagogue (Luke 7:3-6)

The Cannanite Lady was helped by Jesus because she willingly submit herself, to be a dog, in order to take the crumbs from the bread given to Jewish children. Jesus granted her the healing for answering correctly there. (Mark 7:27-29)

All these examples show a common theme: in time past, gentiles who wanted to be blessed by God, needed to go thru Abraham's physical descendants, in order to get blessed.

This was based on what God promised Abraham in Genesis 22:18

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Fortunately in the but now time period, we gentiles can now be saved and blessed, independent of Israel.

In fact, as Paul mentioned in Romans 11:11, we are now saved and blessed thru the fall of the nation Israel.
====

 

[jgr]

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Do you agree that the seed is Christ alone?

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Do you agree that the seed is Christ alone?

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

As I already stated, the protocol ended by Acts 7.

So yes, by the time Paul was saved, none of us needed to go thru Israel for anything concerning God.

 

[jgr]

The Roman Centurion was helped by Jesus because he helped the Jews build their synagogue (Luke 7:3-6)

You will notice that there is not a single reference by Jesus to what the centurion had done for the Jews.

Jesus' only stated commendation was for the centurion's faith.

With an accompanying explicit denunciation of Israel's lack of faith.

It was the centurion's faith that brought about the healing of his servant.

Nothing else was needed or relevant.

Consistent with the entirety of Scripture's message.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

 

[Guojing]

You will notice that there is not a single reference by Jesus to what the centurion had done for the Jews.

Jesus' only stated commendation was for the centurion's faith.

With an accompanying explicit denunciation of Israel's lack of faith.

It was the centurion's faith that brought about the healing of his servant.

Nothing else was relevant.

Consistent with the entirety of Scripture's message.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

The scripture that I used clearly quoted him going thru the Jews, and the latter were the ones who appealed to him, that he was deserving.

3 And when he heard concerning Jesus, he sent unto him elders of the Jews, asking him that he would come and save his servant.

4 And they, when they came to Jesus, besought him earnestly, saying, He is worthy that thou shouldest do this for him; 5 for he loveth our nation, and himself built us our synagogue.

6 And Jesus went with them

Haven't you realized, Jesus did not had to subject him to further tests, and telling him he is a dog, like he did to the Canaanite lady, who did not bless Israel in the same manner?

The scripture is there for you to read, but yes, I cannot make you read them if you deliberately wish to exclude them, in order to satisfy your existing doctrine.

 

[jgr]

The scripture that I used clearly quoted him going thru the Jews, and the latter were the ones who appealed to him, that he was deserving.

3 And when he heard concerning Jesus, he sent unto him elders of the Jews, asking him that he would come and save his servant.

4 And they, when they came to Jesus, besought him earnestly, saying, He is worthy that thou shouldest do this for him; 5 for he loveth our nation, and himself built us our synagogue.

6 And Jesus went with them

Haven't you realized, Jesus did not had to subject him to further tests, and telling him he is a dog, like he did to the Canaanite lady, who did not bless Israel in the same manner?

The scripture is there for you to read, but yes, I cannot make you read them if you deliberately wish to exclude them, in order to satisfy your existing doctrine.

The "elders of the Jews" hated Jesus and were instrumental in His death.

Would Jesus "go thru" Jews who hated him?

Mark 7:24-37 details Jesus' healing of a Gentile woman and man.

Jesus didn't "go thru" any Jews for these healings, or for any healings.

He went through Himself and His Father.

Exclusively.

 

[Guojing]

The "elders of the Jews" hated Jesus and were instrumental in His death.

Would Jesus "go thru" Jews who hated him?

Mark 7:24-37 details Jesus' healing of a Gentile woman and man.

Jesus didn't "go thru" any Jews for these healings, or for any healings.

He went through Himself and His Father.

Exclusively.

In the first place, how in the world can you conclude those elders of the Jews hated him?

Just because you read about some Pharisees and Sadducee hated Jesus, and you jump to that conclusion that "those elders" must have also hated him?

Would they have appealed to Jesus about the roman centurion if they did?

As I said, people can present to you scripture that is pertinent to the subject being discussed, but we cannot make you read them literally.

 

[jgr]

In the first place, how in the world can you conclude those elders of the Jews hated him?

Just because you read about some Pharisees and Sadducee hated Jesus, and you jump to that conclusion that "those elders" must have also hated him?

Would they have appealed to Jesus about the roman centurion if they did?

As I said, people can present to you scripture that is pertinent to the subject being discussed, but we cannot make you read them literally.

What do you conclude?

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 21:23
And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

Matthew 26:3
Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Matthew 26:47
And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

Matthew 26:57
And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

Matthew 26:59
Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Matthew 27:1
When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

 

[Guojing]

What do you conclude?

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 21:23
And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

Matthew 26:3
Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Matthew 26:47
And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

Matthew 26:57
And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

Matthew 26:59
Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Matthew 27:1
When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

In the first place, even if they are the same group of elders, the elders may have believed in him earlier on in Jesus ministry but turn against him in the end, like many did after Palm Sunday, so that is one possibility.

But Let's say I accept the point that you are making, that those elders at Luke 7 were the same elders that changed their mind, at the end of Jesus ministry and wanted him crucified.

The Roman Centurion did blessed the nation Israel by building a synagogue for them right? Are you also denying that has nothing to do with Jesus decision to help him? You must consider Deut 23:3-4, that I have already quoted to you about Ruth

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

The precedent has been set by Moses. A nation that refuse to bless but curse Israel will be cursed. So now Luke deliberately tell us that this Roman built the synagogue for Israel, and you are telling you are 100% sure that act by him has nothing to do with Jesus's decision, given what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18?

That it so happen by coincidence that Jesus had subjected the Canaanite lady to additional tests but exempted the Centurion from the same?

You are 100% refusing to accept that perhaps your doctrine may not be correct?

 

[keras]

We know that all mankind are fallen, we all bear the stain of Adams sin.
But Jesus came to redeem a people for Himself with His blood. Ephesians 1:7

Believers in Jesus, those who have accepted His Salvation, are now people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

But God originally chose a people group to be the ones who would be His Witnesses and to display His Light to the world. Those people failed in their task and were ejected for the holy Land in two dispersions. The Jewish people have come back to a part of the holy Land, but still in unbelief and apostasy.

The Bible tells us in many prophesies; that all of Israel, who are by now an uncountable multitude, will return to the holy Land and will fulfil at last, God's plan for them.
The New Testament tells about a symbolic Olive Tree, one that has had all its branches removed.

That branchless Tree is Jesus and all who believe in Him, will be grafted onto that Tree.
So whether we Christians are actual descendants of Jacob or not, the people who will fulfil God's Plan for a righteous people in His Land; will all be Christians.

In fact being born into the Kingdom, as the Jewish people purport to be, seems to be undesirable!

Matthew 8:11-12 Many will come from the East and the West and sit with the Patriarchs....but those who were born to the Kingdom, will be thrown out......

 

[jgr]

In the first place, even if they are the same group of elders, the elders may have believed in him earlier on in Jesus ministry but turn against him in the end, like many did after Palm Sunday, so that is one possibility.

But Let's say I accept the point that you are making, that those elders at Luke 7 were the same elders that changed their mind, at the end of Jesus ministry and wanted him crucified.

The Roman Centurion did blessed the nation Israel by building a synagogue for them right? Are you also denying that has nothing to do with Jesus decision to help him? You must consider Deut 23:3-4, that I have already quoted to you about Ruth

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

The precedent has been set by Moses. A nation that refuse to bless but curse Israel will be cursed. So now Luke deliberately tell us that this Roman built the synagogue for Israel, and you are telling you are 100% sure that act by him has nothing to do with Jesus's decision, given what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18?

That it so happen by coincidence that Jesus had subjected the Canaanite lady to additional tests but exempted the Centurion from the same?

You are 100% refusing to accept that perhaps your doctrine may not be correct?

Before I respond, I'm curious as to where you're getting this idea of "going thru".

What is its source and origin?

 

[Guojing]

Before I respond, I'm curious as to where you're getting this idea of "going thru".

What is its source and origin?

I already gave you Genesis 12:3 and Deut 23, among others.

 

[jgr]

I already gave you Genesis 12:3 and Deut 23, among others.

And what recognized scholars and apologists of the Word in the true Church can you cite who agree with your interpretation?

 

[Guojing]

And what recognized scholars and apologists of the Word in the true Church can you cite who agree with your interpretation?

I quoted for you scriptural examples of Ruth, Rahab, the Roman Centurion, and the Canaanite Lady and showed how all of them were blessed because they either helped the nation Israel, or went thru the Jews.

Scripture is not sufficient for you?

 

[BABerean2]

I quoted for you scriptural examples of Ruth, Rahab, the Roman Centurion, and the Canaanite Lady and showed how all of them were blessed because they either helped the nation Israel, or went thru the Jews.

Scripture is not sufficient for you?

The household of Cornelius went thru the one Jew, the Lord Jesus Christ.


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


.

 

[Guojing]

The household of Cornelius went thru the one Jew, the Lord Jesus Christ.


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


.

The protocol ended by Acts 7, as I have repeated many times.

 

[jgr]

I quoted for you scriptural examples of Ruth, Rahab, the Roman Centurion, and the Canaanite Lady and showed how all of them were blessed because they either helped the nation Israel, or went thru the Jews.

Scripture is not sufficient for you?

Your presumption of Scripture is not sufficient. Until you can demonstrate its acceptance within the annals of sound doctrine of the true Church, it is nothing more than a private interpretation.

Let's be specific. Provide a quote, name, source, and date of any recognized apologist of the true Church who believed that the centurion's servant was healed because the centurion "went thru" (Christ-hating) Jews.

 

[mkgal1]

I shared this in BABerean2's thread - but it's relevant here as well. For anyone that's willing to take the time (it's about an hour and twenty minutes long) this does a great job of explaining the modern geopolitical issues of Israel.

 

[mkgal1]

The household of Cornelius went thru the one Jew, the Lord Jesus Christ.


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


.

From what I think I'm understanding of his beliefs....he's asserting that things changed around the time of Acts 7. He's partially right (I think) because, technically, the representation of God's kingdom based on the Old Covenant was still physically in the control of the apostate religious leaders.....but spiritually...God has always been gathering people to Himself...with no exclusions (and Nineveh is an excellent example).

 

[jgr]

From what I think I'm understanding of his beliefs....he's asserting that things changed around the time of Acts 7. He's partially right (I think) because, technically, the representation of God's kingdom based on the Old Covenant was still physically in the control of the apostate religious leaders.....but spiritually...God has always been gathering people to Himself...with no exclusions (and Nineveh is an excellent example).

I'll probably need to leave that discussion to you, mkgal1, because I think my patience will be exhausted after dealing with "going thru".