Isn't There Middle Ground Between Pre & Post?

Dave L

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Re the AC; there will be a man who will blaspheme God and literally sit in the Temple, in Jerusalem. These things are not spiritual or allegorical. It will all happen as described. Matthew 24:15 Why not?

Dave L, please make it clear when you mention 'rapture', where people are removed to.
It is plain from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17, that that removal is not to heaven, as Jesus has come down from heaven, on His way to earth for His Millennial reign.
There is no scripture that says God will take His people up to heaven. Only the 2 Witnesses, their souls, Jesus will bring back with all the martyrs souls and bring them back to life for the Millennium.
If there ever is a Temple in Jerusalem, it is not part of prophecy. Jesus and those who make up his body are the Temple in scripture. There is no millennial reign of Christ on earth. He said his kingdom is not of this world. And the only rapture mentioned happens on the last day, at the end of the world.
 
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jax5434

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My major problem with pre-tribulational rapture is the concept of *literally* being physically lifted from the earth, instead of taking all of that metaphorically. The metaphor of this sort *is* literal, yet also metaphoric -- this can be confusing only if people make it confusing. We use these sorts of metaphors everyday in our speech. "This lifts me up", "this makes me feel like I am cloud nine", and so on.

Jesus stated that 'you do not see the Kingdom literally come down from the sky, but it is within/among you'. And, 'if I drive out these evil spirits by God, then the Kingdom of God has come among you'.

With the parables of 'the sheep and the goats', of 'the ten virgins', and even 'the leper lazarus and the rich man' you see interactions between believers who have been raptured and those who are condemned.

In Revelation, after the Millennium part, you see the City 'come down from Heaven' and being on earth.

In the Prophets, you read of 'those who die before one hundred will be considered cursed by God and mere infants', 'you will walk out and see the dead bodies' (which could certainly be metaphoric considering the waking state and the sleeping state metaphor used for those who 'walk in darkness' and those who 'are in the light), and so on.

You read in the Prophets of how 'knowledge of God will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas', and of the resurrection of the dead happening 'so as even could not be believed'.

Both the first and second resurrection certainly seem to happen on earth in Revelation.

Jesus encouraged us to 'first seek the Kingdom of Heaven, then all else will be added to you'.

We are on earth, but we either find the Kingdom within our own selves, or we are not part of the Kingdom, at all? No?

We are told we face tribulation, as part of our Christian life, multiple times. And while the third woe seems to effect all of earth, which it must, as does the coming of "The Anti-Christ", certainly God could protect us in Heaven on earth during that time, just as He does in our ordinary Christian walk -- or no?

Anything is possible, however. Surely, we could become literally like the elect angels, and as the spirits which govern this world under the prince of this world. But, does that not seem off? I am not sure if anyone really has gone that far in thinking these matters out. The descriptions of the spiritual body and powers of it seem to be painted vaguely, though we saw Jesus, Moses, and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration -- and Jesus had such a body, we saw, via Scripture, there. Which body we do have good descriptions of, in Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel.

Angels do seem to have such bodies, as they are able to show them, or appear as ordinary human beings.

lem with pre-tribulational rapture is the concept of *literally* being physically lifted from the earth, instead of taking all of that metaphorically. The metaphor of this sort *is* literal, yet also metaphoric -- this can be confusing only if people make it confusing. We use these sorts of metaphors everyday in our speech. "This lifts me up", "this makes me feel like I am cloud nine", and so on.

Jesus stated that 'you do not see the Kingdom literally come down from the sky, but it is within/among you'. And, 'if I drive out these evil spirits by God, then the Kingdom of God has come among you'.

With the parables of 'the sheep and the goats', of 'the ten virgins', and even 'the leper lazarus and the rich man' you see interactions between believers who have been raptured and those who are condemned.

In Revelation, after the Millennium part, you see the City 'come down from Heaven' and being on earth.

In the Prophets, you read of 'those who die before one hundred will be considered cursed by God and mere infants', 'you will walk out and see the dead bodies' (which could certainly be metaphoric considering the waking state and the sleeping state metaphor used for those who 'walk in darkness' and those who 'are in the light), and so on.

You read in the Prophets of how 'knowledge of God will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas', and of the resurrection of the dead happening 'so as even could not be believed'.

Both the first and second resurrection certainly seem to happen on earth in Revelation.

Jesus encouraged us to 'first seek the Kingdom of Heaven, then all else will be added to you'.

We are on earth, but we either find the Kingdom within our own selves, or we are not part of the Kingdom, at all? No?

We are told we face tribulation, as part of our Christian life, multiple times. And while the third woe seems to effect all of earth, which it must, as does the coming of "The Anti-Christ", certainly God could protect us in Heaven on earth during that time, just as He does in our ordinary Christian walk -- or no?

Anything is possible, however. Surely, we could become literally like the elect angels, and as the spirits which govern this world under the prince of this world. But, does that not seem off? I am not sure if anyone really has gone that far in thinking these matters out. The descriptions of the spiritual body and powers of it seem to be painted vaguely, though we saw Jesus, Moses, and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration -- and Jesus had such a body, we saw, via Scripture, there. Which body we do have good descriptions of, in Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel.

Angels do seem to have such bodies, as they are able to show them, or appear as ordinary human beings.[/QUOTE]
My major problem with pre-tribulational rapture is the concept of *literally* being physically lifted from the earth, instead of taking all of that metaphorically. The metaphor of this sort *is* literal, yet also metaphoric -- this can be confusing only if people make it confusing. We use these sorts of metaphors everyday in our speech. "This lifts me up", "this makes me feel like I am cloud nine", and so on.

Jesus stated that 'you do not see the Kingdom literally come down from the sky, but it is within/among you'. And, 'if I drive out these evil spirits by God, then the Kingdom of God has come among you'.

With the parables of 'the sheep and the goats', of 'the ten virgins', and even 'the leper lazarus and the rich man' you see interactions between believers who have been raptured and those who are condemned.

In Revelation, after the Millennium part, you see the City 'come down from Heaven' and being on earth.

In the Prophets, you read of 'those who die before one hundred will be considered cursed by God and mere infants', 'you will walk out and see the dead bodies' (which could certainly be metaphoric considering the waking state and the sleeping state metaphor used for those who 'walk in darkness' and those who 'are in the light), and so on.

You read in the Prophets of how 'knowledge of God will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas', and of the resurrection of the dead happening 'so as even could not be believed'.

Both the first and second resurrection certainly seem to happen on earth in Revelation.

Jesus encouraged us to 'first seek the Kingdom of Heaven, then all else will be added to you'.

We are on earth, but we either find the Kingdom within our own selves, or we are not part of the Kingdom, at all? No?

We are told we face tribulation, as part of our Christian life, multiple times. And while the third woe seems to effect all of earth, which it must, as does the coming of "The Anti-Christ", certainly God could protect us in Heaven on earth during that time, just as He does in our ordinary Christian walk -- or no?

Anything is possible, however. Surely, we could become literally like the elect angels, and as the spirits which govern this world under the prince of this world. But, does that not seem off? I am not sure if anyone really has gone that far in thinking these matters out. The descriptions of the spiritual body and powers of it seem to be painted vaguely, though we saw Jesus, Moses, and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration -- and Jesus had such a body, we saw, via Scripture, there. Which body we do have good descriptions of, in Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel.

Angels do seem to have such bodies, as they are able to show them, or appear as ordinary human beings.

Its called Pan Tribulationist. It will all pan out in the end.

God Bless
Jax
 
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ItIsFinished!

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All I have to say after reading several posts here , is WOW!
Surely God will not see His bride defiled by impending judgment against the nonbelievers during the 7 year tribulation.
Without a doubt the Scriptures teach of a pretribulation rapture.
The Church will not be here during that time.
That being said , the two witnesses and the 144,00 evangelists , left behind Bibles, tracts, DVDs and past testimonies will be available for those to hear the truth and come to the saving grace of God.
The biggest revival will occur during the 7 year tribulation.
 
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Blade

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Jesus said.. I give you..YOU being those that believe in Him..that HE is who He said He was. Gave us ALL power over the enemy and NOTHING shall by any means hurt you. IN my NAME...Peter and John..its FAITH in that name. The enemy has to RUN from the Christ in you. For Satan to have power over me.. Christ would have to be take-out of me. Behold I give you power to? And over ALL not some not once a week..over ALL the power of the enemy. And greater is HE that is in YOU then he thats in the world.

The word says.. when it/He is taken out of the way... SOMETHING that has ALL power over Satan..something for FACT is holding Satan back. When that is taken out of the way.. then we see the AC come out in the open. We find what happen BEFORE Christ came.. is out in the open and happening again.. lying signs and wonders.. yet strange how NOT NOW...what has ALL power over Satan.. the GOD in you. So unless the Father takes HIM self out.. or allows Satan to have power over CHRSIT in you.. people do not take GOD at His word. Doubt.. no belief will give Satan power over you.

The word makes its very clear... do not let any man/woman lie to you. One day the dead will rise.. we that are alive will rise go with them.. be changed.. CAUGHT UP. It says.. He will come not setting foot.. but in the clouds.. the same way He left as the two angels side. CAUGHT UP MEANS RAPTURE.

WHEN that happens NO ONE ..not one person on this site again don't let man deceive you. No one knows. It is not written PRE MID or POST. God told you OT NT you will NEVER see His wrath. The word OT makes it very clear Gods wrath was is for the wicked period. Said this a few times. Go read a OLD Jewish wedding. He pays a price for his bride. He then goes back to his fathers house to make them a home. She stays behind getting ready and stuff. About a year later he comes back with some friends..mostly at night. Makes a loud noise so she knows he's coming.. takes her back to his fathers house for about a week.

That in its self means nothing..proves nothings. What are the odds. Jesus told you.. I go to make you a home. And if I go I will come back for you. WHY do you question the words of your God? WHY do you believe what some person that is in this world JUST like you? That has NO MORE insight to GODS word then you do. They read that same book and then share what they PERSONALLY believe. THAT is NOT Gods word but theres.. MANS.

Jesus is coming. He will come in the clouds.. Dead will rise.. we then will go change..meet Him in the AIR to be with Him for ever. NO WHERE before or after does one get the idea is not real. Paul was talking to some that thought they missed Christ.. So.. live expect HIM NOW! He will NOT force you to go.. YOU freely make this choice. HE said I WILL COME GET YOU..so why not just take HIM at HIS word..not theres not mine.. HIS.. REJOICE.. HE CANT LIE.. HE IS COMING... but will YOU be ready? IF you do not believe.. no where does it say you will be FORCED to go.. 10 were all sleeping at one time.. all woke up.. only 5 were ready.. and that SAME GOD form the OT is alive and well..And we can knock all we want after.. He will NOT open that door again. Saying its NOT true.. so what? He is coming.. just be ready NOW
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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The change into immortality does not happen at the Return of Jesus.
Only at the end of the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened, will those who names are found Written there; have Eternal life conferred onto them.

"The change into immortality does not happen at the return of Jesus" -- supporting documentation on that?

How do you explain the following two verses and similar?

1 Corinthian 13
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

1 John 3
. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Jesus IS the rider of the white horse of Revelation 19:11.

Revelation is very symbolic, and taking traditional viewpoints may turn out to be incorrect. This is wise to be cautious, on attempting to identify the rider on the white horse by human perspective. Especially when you put yourself in a box, as you have, by effectively claiming there to be three comings: a first, a second, and a third.

One problem you run into with insisting that this rider is literally and specifically only Jesus, is that the rider is identified as the child in Revelation 12. Jesus is not a child.

Another problem is that "Jesus himself" speaks to that child through all of Revelation. Including stating such things as "to the one who is victorious". Jesus is already victorious.

I suppose you could argue that "Jesus is a child", because Jesus is the "son of God"? But, in context of Revelation 12, you have Jesus appearing as an infant in the womb of a woman. [Not to put words in your mouth, I am just saying what an appropriate argument might be if someone thought out a matter.]

The woman is likely a conglomerate, and the child very well may be a conglomerate too.

If the child is a conglomerate, then that child is also not *literally* Jesus.

Even the one who spoke to John, appearing in the very form of Jesus, and speaking as Jesus in the first person, is not *literally* Jesus.

I will also add that 'the Spirit convicts according to righteousness because he goes to the Father when you can see him no longer'. Which may help explain why the rider of the white horse very well may not *literally* be Jesus.

Considering the number of verses in these regards simply about the rider on the horse and how that does not exactly fit Jesus in Revelation alone, I do think bears substantial evidence for pause before pontificating.

References:


Rev 1

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Rev 14

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.


Rev 2

26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3

21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Rev 12

5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Rev 21

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

...

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Rev 22

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!”

John 16

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth."


He Returns in glory to take up the Kingship of the world for 1000 years.


This is stated, effectively, but because of your likely misunderstanding of the above verses, I do not think we would be talking about the same thing here.

There is the 'Great King', which, again, was spoken of as the third person, holding to similar language Jesus uses in the references above. It is important to remember, however, that the City does not literally appear until after the Millennium.



References:


Rev 21

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

Matt 5

34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.


The martyrs of Revelation 20:4, are brought back to life, just like Lazarus was. NOT immortalized yet, until the Book of Life is opened.

This is not what the book states.


Rev 20

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

While it can be hard to believe this is possible, that really does not dictate 'interpretation of prophecy'.

It should be remembered 'interpretation of prophecy is not subject to the prophet', so it certainly would not be subject to interpretation by another prophet, or someone who is not even a prophet at all. I have no idea if you are a prophet or not, I do not think having inaccuracies in biblical interpretation is an indicator of that.

However, due to the manner of your statements, painting your beliefs as if it is entirely impossible to have error, this is why I have stated this.

Confidence and faith is good, but it can also be bad. You have to watch out for coming to conclusions, especially with something like Revelation, if you do not have the evidence to support your conclusions.

Those who teach are subjected to much more judgment, then those who do not.

This is certainly especially true with Revelation, with stating that your interpretation is the only right one, and effectively swearing that it is equal to the Word of God.


Therefore they may die again, that is why Revelation 20:6 says that the second death has no power over them, because there names ARE Written in the Book of Life.

The second death is not a bodily death, and is literally the second death, not the first.

'One life then face judgment, just as Jesus lived one life, then died'.

If you are arguing a person might live multiple lives and have more then one physical death, as you are arguing... this goes along the line of your effectively arguing there are three comings of Jesus.

Which is substantially even more difficult to prove then some of your other assertions.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection of the dead. Scripture does not support a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

Also
John 11:24

John 11:24 is not the 'word of God', but of Martha.

"24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”



Regarding this statement of yours:

Scripture does not support a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture.

This is obviously not true, and your verses do not state otherwise.

If it is semantics that you are arguing, as for 'there not being a tribulation', that is clearly semantics, as the tribulation is defined as the third woe, or some larger subset of Revelation.

I do not call it "the tribulation", but people know what I mean when I stated the term, as I am using their term.

The 'last trumpet' is very likely the seventh trumpet in Revelation. As a trumpet is not literal, but an expansive, sophisticated number of events, the last trumpet does align with the first resurrection of the dead, as detailed in Revelation.

This last trumpet happens after the the resurrection and ascension of the two witnesses, and the events which afterwards unfold are because of that last trumpet. Which include the falling to earth of Satan and his angels, the third woe, and the first resurrection of the dead.

So, it is not unreasonable for pre-tribulational, mid, or post tribulational rapturists.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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It is symbolic pertaining to Antichrist. But scripture does not mention any form of a rapture except the one following the resurrection on the last day.

What is symbolic pertaining to the Antichrist?

Scripture mentions one rapture, is anyone saying there are multiple raptures? If this is pertaining to a semantic argument about the possible other meanings of "rapture", this is taken out of context, drastically.

The rapture is in two phases, so it is not wrong to state there are two raptures. In fact, anytime anyone rises up to meet the Lord, that is a rapture.

In context, however, "The Rapture" indicates the 'inheritance of the imperishable body', such as what was seen on the mount of transfiguration, with Jesus the Lord, Moses, and Elijah.

First, the dead in Christ are "raptured", effectively, then 'those still living' are raptured.

Many, over the centuries have been temporarily risen up to Heaven and to the Lord, and brought back down to earth. This is not what is meant by "The Rapture", but certainly is "a rapture", which is closely in context.

However, "a rapture" is not, in context what is debated here.

In fact, I am not actually debating anything, but am merely pointing out that the pre and post view may have more in common then it appears.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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All I have to say after reading several posts here , is WOW!
Surely God will not see His bride defiled by impending judgment against the nonbelievers during the 7 year tribulation.
Without a doubt the Scriptures teach of a pretribulation rapture.
The Church will not be here during that time.
That being said , the two witnesses and the 144,00 evangelists , left behind Bibles, tracts, DVDs and past testimonies will be available for those to hear the truth and come to the saving grace of God.
The biggest revival will occur during the 7 year tribulation.

This is inaccurate, as believers are not 'on earth' in the context of Revelation 12, where this woe is stated for 'those on earth'. Believers are 'on earth' but also 'in Heaven' already, as 'the Kingdom is within/among you'. This is not the same level as the Kingdom in Heaven, nor the same level as the Kingdom as it will be during the thousand years and when the City descends from Heaven after the thousand years.

This is confirmed by the 144,000 who 'do not worship the beast nor his image'.

This does not mean the believers may be entirely aware of this. After all, it is said people can not sell nor buy during this time. But, what that means, exactly, is not stated. There is the concept of 'scales on the eyes' in regards to angels, not once in Scripture, but twice. Just because you can not see the angels, does not mean they are not there.

Some, or maybe even many, who hold the post (or mid) position, probably do not assert that they will fall as the rest fall, and so be subject to the third woe. Even if they do, they would be incorrect.

As for the pre-tribulational rapture being the only answer, this is not tenable, as they are most likely not either of the two witnesses.

And, all who have a heart, seeing the third woe take place, certainly would have some manner of tribulation.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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yes, it's called mid-trib

This is not what I meant, in context. But, a mid tribulation viewpoint is in the same place.

All of these views have merit, any *might* be true, but ultimately, we do not yet know entirely for sure.

Someone might know, one or the other group might be correct, Heaven certainly knows. But, for a person 'down here' to know, they would actually have to be there.
 
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ItIsFinished!

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This is inaccurate, as believers are not 'on earth' in the context of Revelation 12, where this woe is stated for 'those on earth'. Believers are 'on earth' but also 'in Heaven' already, as 'the Kingdom is within/among you'. This is not the same level as the Kingdom in Heaven, nor the same level as the Kingdom as it will be during the thousand years and when the City descends from Heaven after the thousand years.

This is confirmed by the 144,000 who 'do not worship the beast nor his image'.

This does not mean the believers may be entirely aware of this. After all, it is said people can not sell nor buy during this time. But, what that means, exactly, is not stated. There is the concept of 'scales on the eyes' in regards to angels, not once in Scripture, but twice. Just because you can not see the angels, does not mean they are not there.

Some, or maybe even many, who hold the post (or mid) position, probably do not assert that they will fall as the rest fall, and so be subject to the third woe. Even if they do, they would be incorrect.

As for the pre-tribulational rapture being the only answer, this is not tenable, as they are most likely not either of the two witnesses.

And, all who have a heart, seeing the third woe take place, certainly would have some manner of tribulation.
You can share your opinion that what I believe is inaccurate, but I am at peace with what I believe regarding what I posted and what I believe regarding the 7 year tribulation and the pretrib rapture.
I believe it is in harmony with the Scriptures on all facets.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Jesus said.. I give you..YOU being those that believe in Him..that HE is who He said He was. Gave us ALL power over the enemy and NOTHING shall by any means hurt you. IN my NAME...Peter and John..its FAITH in that name. The enemy has to RUN from the Christ in you. For Satan to have power over me.. Christ would have to be take-out of me. Behold I give you power to? And over ALL not some not once a week..over ALL the power of the enemy. And greater is HE that is in YOU then he thats in the world.

The word says.. when it/He is taken out of the way... SOMETHING that has ALL power over Satan..something for FACT is holding Satan back. When that is taken out of the way.. then we see the AC come out in the open. We find what happen BEFORE Christ came.. is out in the open and happening again.. lying signs and wonders.. yet strange how NOT NOW...what has ALL power over Satan.. the GOD in you. So unless the Father takes HIM self out.. or allows Satan to have power over CHRSIT in you.. people do not take GOD at His word. Doubt.. no belief will give Satan power over you.

The word makes its very clear... do not let any man/woman lie to you. One day the dead will rise.. we that are alive will rise go with them.. be changed.. CAUGHT UP. It says.. He will come not setting foot.. but in the clouds.. the same way He left as the two angels side. CAUGHT UP MEANS RAPTURE.

WHEN that happens NO ONE ..not one person on this site again don't let man deceive you. No one knows. It is not written PRE MID or POST. God told you OT NT you will NEVER see His wrath. The word OT makes it very clear Gods wrath was is for the wicked period. Said this a few times. Go read a OLD Jewish wedding. He pays a price for his bride. He then goes back to his fathers house to make them a home. She stays behind getting ready and stuff. About a year later he comes back with some friends..mostly at night. Makes a loud noise so she knows he's coming.. takes her back to his fathers house for about a week.

That in its self means nothing..proves nothings. What are the odds. Jesus told you.. I go to make you a home. And if I go I will come back for you. WHY do you question the words of your God? WHY do you believe what some person that is in this world JUST like you? That has NO MORE insight to GODS word then you do. They read that same book and then share what they PERSONALLY believe. THAT is NOT Gods word but theres.. MANS.

Jesus is coming. He will come in the clouds.. Dead will rise.. we then will go change..meet Him in the AIR to be with Him for ever. NO WHERE before or after does one get the idea is not real. Paul was talking to some that thought they missed Christ.. So.. live expect HIM NOW! He will NOT force you to go.. YOU freely make this choice. HE said I WILL COME GET YOU..so why not just take HIM at HIS word..not theres not mine.. HIS.. REJOICE.. HE CANT LIE.. HE IS COMING... but will YOU be ready? IF you do not believe.. no where does it say you will be FORCED to go.. 10 were all sleeping at one time.. all woke up.. only 5 were ready.. and that SAME GOD form the OT is alive and well..And we can knock all we want after.. He will NOT open that door again. Saying its NOT true.. so what? He is coming.. just be ready NOW

What is this in regard to?
 
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keras

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"The change into immortality does not happen at the return of Jesus" -- supporting documentation on that?
I did give it. Revelation 20:12 is plain and unequivocal; only then, at the Great White Throne, is the Book of Life opened. No- one gets immortality before then.
Any teaching that people receive immortality before the end of the Millennium, is wrong and false teaching, made to suit a false doctrine. Your scriptures don't even apply to this issue.
One problem you run into with insisting that this rider is literally and specifically only Jesus, is that the rider is identified as the child in Revelation 12. Jesus is not a child.
You are fairly lonely in thinking Jesus is not the Person in Revelation 19:11-12.
Also obvious that Jesus is the man child of Revelation 12:5
Why you should think otherwise, I cannot fathom. Who else?
The second death is not a bodily death, and is literally the second death, not the first.
The 'second death' IS a second death. Just as Lazarus died again, they too will die naturally at a good age, no doubt. But over them the second death has no power, Because their names ARE written in the book of Life and when it is opened; at the GWT Judgement of everybody, they will automatically receive immortality.
Believing that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 happens before the GWT, is a serious error because Death continues until then.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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You can share your opinion that what I believe is inaccurate, but I am at peace with what I believe regarding what I posted and what I believe regarding the 7 year tribulation and the pretrib rapture.
I believe it is in harmony with the Scriptures on all facets.

Fair enough, really I do not hold the specifics of any of the tribulational views, though do hold the view 'that we will all be changed'.

What saves is the Word of God, as spoken to us by Jesus in the Good News.

I do not think anyone here believes anyone is damned or not saved merely because they hold pre, mid, or post tribulational viewpoints.

My concern for pre-tribulational viewpoint is not that they are misled about the rapture, necessarily, as anyone who is elect will not be deceived by the Anti-Christ.

Testing does and will come, especially for those who teach. And that responsibility is put upon anyone who takes the teachings of others to teach. As we all are also students. I would add, further, testing definitely will come for those who teach interpretations of Revelation which they teach as being the only right possible interpretation.

But, such testing is between that person and God.

When we are tested, peace is taken away from us.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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I did give it. Revelation 20:12 is plain and unequivocal; only then, at the Great White Throne, is the Book of Life opened. No- one gets immortality before then.
Any teaching that people receive immortality before the end of the Millennium, is wrong and false teaching, made to suit a false doctrine. Your scriptures don't even apply to this issue.

You are fairly lonely in thinking Jesus is not the Person in Revelation 19:11-12.
Also obvious that Jesus is the man child of Revelation 12:5
Why you should think otherwise, I cannot fathom. Who else?

The 'second death' IS a second death. Just as Lazarus died again, they too will die naturally at a good age, no doubt. But over them the second death has no power, Because their names ARE written in the book of Life and when it is opened; at the GWT Judgement of everybody, they will automatically receive immortality.
Believing that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 happens before the GWT, is a serious error because Death continues until then.

Regarding:

You are fairly lonely in thinking Jesus is not the Person in Revelation 19:11-12.
Also obvious that Jesus is the man child of Revelation 12:5
Why you should think otherwise, I cannot fathom. Who else?

This is not difficult to figure out, if you 'have ears to hear' and join Jesus on that horse. This is the message to all the 'overcomers'.

Ultimately, this "one" is the conglomerate of the Church, with Jesus as the Rider, albeit Jesus not on earth where he can be seen, but in Heaven.

I do not state that this is "not Jesus". I am stating this is likely not specifically Jesus. That difference can seem minor depending on one's understanding of these sorts of matters. Though, it can be compared to the concept of the trinity, or the concept of the Angel of Jesus appears as Jesus in glory and speaks as Jesus in the first person. Such things get even more confusing, if you realize that Angel is the Angel of the Lord, Michael, the archangel.

Whether a view appears as 'fairly lonely' or not, does not make it untrue. Many do hold the view that the verses I cited (far beyond merely Revelation 12) pertain to a conglomerate of the Church through the great mystery of the wedding. This means anyone who views the Millennium as already having passed, as the Catholic Church does (who have 1.2 billion members), and many who view the Church as "the one who is victorious" and "the one who overcomes".

Typically, that view tends to be that the Rider is Jesus in Heaven coming through the Church.

Effectively, this is exactly also what anyone else believes who believe that is not yet the often mentioned "Second Coming" of Jesus, or even anyone who believes that is not "Jesus literally on the ground".

From what you have been stating, you also seem to believe this, unless you are stating that Jesus is literally on the ground at this time.

Whatever the case, there are a lot of verses here which you evaded, well beyond simply Revelation 12:5. As these other verses I cited to you all tied into this. This is not a case where verses are emptily thrown at someone, which have no bearing on the assertion made. But, these verses all tie into the Rider on the White Horse. If you believe otherwise, then you are missing a very large chunk of knowledge of Revelation, which you seem to be professing you know the meaning of them.

Which verses are these? The ones I cited, using the same manner of argument you rely on, though I am careful to provide the specific excerpts and underline the most relevant passages:

References:


Rev 1

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Rev 14

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song
before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.


Rev 2

26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3

21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Rev 12

5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Rev 21

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

...

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.

Rev 22

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!”

John 16

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth."

...


Revelation 20:12 is plain and unequivocal; only then, at the Great White Throne, is the Book of Life opened. No- one gets immortality before then.
Any teaching that people receive immortality before the end of the Millennium, is wrong and false teaching, made to suit a false doctrine. Your scriptures don't even apply to this issue.

Revelation 20:12 states, "12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

This does not state nor imply that 'no one gets immortality before then'.

More importantly, the first resurrection does not state those people will die, but rather, 'they will reign with Christ for a 1000 years'.

There is no reason whatsoever for them to die, unless you just can not believe people could live for a thousand years. Lack of being able to believe something does not make it untrue.

Quite the contrary,

Rev 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Why are they given the authority to judge, if they are just facing a barren planet and are merely going to die... after being raised from the dead in something so apocalyptic it is called the "first resurrection"?

There are many other problems with your viewpoint.

But, there is no evidence, whatsoever, that those raised at the first resurrection die off.

That a book is opened is certainly not any statement that implies nor states directly that they will.

If anything, it implies, they will be the judges at the second resurrection. Which, is exactly what the saints will do.

There may be those to judge in the first resurrection and during the thousand years. The verse seems to imply that. However, I do not know, at this time.

I would be lying if I stated that I knew that for sure, at this time.

I do not think you have been tested on your interpretations, at all, yet. I do not see how you hold these viewpoints and push them as the only correct reading of Revelation, if you had.
 
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Dave L

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What is symbolic pertaining to the Antichrist?

Scripture mentions one rapture, is anyone saying there are multiple raptures? If this is pertaining to a semantic argument about the possible other meanings of "rapture", this is taken out of context, drastically.

The rapture is in two phases, so it is not wrong to state there are two raptures. In fact, anytime anyone rises up to meet the Lord, that is a rapture.

In context, however, "The Rapture" indicates the 'inheritance of the imperishable body', such as what was seen on the mount of transfiguration, with Jesus the Lord, Moses, and Elijah.

First, the dead in Christ are "raptured", effectively, then 'those still living' are raptured.

Many, over the centuries have been temporarily risen up to Heaven and to the Lord, and brought back down to earth. This is not what is meant by "The Rapture", but certainly is "a rapture", which is closely in context.

However, "a rapture" is not, in context what is debated here.

In fact, I am not actually debating anything, but am merely pointing out that the pre and post view may have more in common then it appears.
Who else might it be if not Antichrist?
 
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Dave L

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John 11:24 is not the 'word of God', but of Martha.

"24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”



Regarding this statement of yours:



This is obviously not true, and your verses do not state otherwise.

If it is semantics that you are arguing, as for 'there not being a tribulation', that is clearly semantics, as the tribulation is defined as the third woe, or some larger subset of Revelation.

I do not call it "the tribulation", but people know what I mean when I stated the term, as I am using their term.

The 'last trumpet' is very likely the seventh trumpet in Revelation. As a trumpet is not literal, but an expansive, sophisticated number of events, the last trumpet does align with the first resurrection of the dead, as detailed in Revelation.

This last trumpet happens after the the resurrection and ascension of the two witnesses, and the events which afterwards unfold are because of that last trumpet. Which include the falling to earth of Satan and his angels, the third woe, and the first resurrection of the dead.

So, it is not unreasonable for pre-tribulational, mid, or post tribulational rapturists.
If so, quote the verses directly supporting any rapture other than the one following the resurrection on the last day.
 
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Blade

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[QUOTE="As there is no such thing as a 'rapture to heaven', your question is invalid.

Thinking there is to be a removal of all Christians before the Lord's wrath strikes, is just wrong and is refuted by much scripture. 1 Peter 3:12[/QUOTE]

You know thinking just now..I almost never reply hmm. Now maybe I missed it..got it wrong. But did not Christ tell them He was going to make them a place so where He was they will be? What gets me is one He looks them in the eye and says.. I AM leaving and will come back for you. He says HE is going to His Fathers house..just like a OLD Jewish wedding..hmm

He tells them He will come back for them so WHERE He is they will be. WHERE I go you know. So...where is this where? Fathers house. He will come back take them back to His Fathers house. I read where some thought Christ came and they missed it. So Paul tells them they did not. Paul well not Paul but the sweet sweet Holy Spirit tells them about at some point dead will rise then we will be changed and CAUGHT UP with them to meet Christ not on earth but in the air to be with Him forever.

You also said "that that removal is not to heaven, as Jesus has come down from heaven, on His way to earth for His Millennial reign." My brother what you said is not written. No where in 1-2nd Thes or before that book or after does it even hint Christ is coming to earth to reign. It does go on to talk about something that is holding back the lawless one and that when that/He is taken out of the way then and only then does the AC come on the stage.

Really not here to debate its the fact you share things that you in no way can back up. You talk about what others said and NOT written. Yet you did the same thing. Again "Coming form heaven to earth for His millennial reign". That is NOT whats in that letter.

Truth is..Christ left and will come back get us..fact.. when we don't know ready or not.. HE will come
 
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keras

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Revelation 20:12 states, "12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

This does not state nor imply that 'no one gets immortality before then'.
That scripture certainly does imply and makes quite clear that; only when the Book of Life is opened, can anyone receive immortality. Revelation 22:14 confirms it.

The unscriptural idea of receiving an eternal body before the Great White Throne Judgement, has led many astray.
You, Blade and millions of other Christians have been fooled by false teachings and when what you fondly expect does not happen, you must not lose your faith.
 
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