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Featured Isn't There Middle Ground Between Pre & Post?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DreamerOfTheHeart, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    My major problem with pre-tribulational rapture is the concept of *literally* being physically lifted from the earth, instead of taking all of that metaphorically. The metaphor of this sort *is* literal, yet also metaphoric -- this can be confusing only if people make it confusing. We use these sorts of metaphors everyday in our speech. "This lifts me up", "this makes me feel like I am cloud nine", and so on.

    Jesus stated that 'you do not see the Kingdom literally come down from the sky, but it is within/among you'. And, 'if I drive out these evil spirits by God, then the Kingdom of God has come among you'.

    With the parables of 'the sheep and the goats', of 'the ten virgins', and even 'the leper lazarus and the rich man' you see interactions between believers who have been raptured and those who are condemned.

    In Revelation, after the Millennium part, you see the City 'come down from Heaven' and being on earth.

    In the Prophets, you read of 'those who die before one hundred will be considered cursed by God and mere infants', 'you will walk out and see the dead bodies' (which could certainly be metaphoric considering the waking state and the sleeping state metaphor used for those who 'walk in darkness' and those who 'are in the light), and so on.

    You read in the Prophets of how 'knowledge of God will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas', and of the resurrection of the dead happening 'so as even could not be believed'.

    Both the first and second resurrection certainly seem to happen on earth in Revelation.

    Jesus encouraged us to 'first seek the Kingdom of Heaven, then all else will be added to you'.

    We are on earth, but we either find the Kingdom within our own selves, or we are not part of the Kingdom, at all? No?

    We are told we face tribulation, as part of our Christian life, multiple times. And while the third woe seems to effect all of earth, which it must, as does the coming of "The Anti-Christ", certainly God could protect us in Heaven on earth during that time, just as He does in our ordinary Christian walk -- or no?

    Anything is possible, however. Surely, we could become literally like the elect angels, and as the spirits which govern this world under the prince of this world. But, does that not seem off? I am not sure if anyone really has gone that far in thinking these matters out. The descriptions of the spiritual body and powers of it seem to be painted vaguely, though we saw Jesus, Moses, and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration -- and Jesus had such a body, we saw, via Scripture, there. Which body we do have good descriptions of, in Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel.

    Angels do seem to have such bodies, as they are able to show them, or appear as ordinary human beings.
     
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  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    As there is no such thing as a 'rapture to heaven', your question is invalid.

    People need to really read what God plans for His people, as the Bible clearly tells us.
    We Christians are tasked to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16. We are asked to spread the Gospel to all peoples, Matthew 28:19

    Thinking there is to be a removal of all Christians before the Lord's wrath strikes, is just wrong and is refuted by much scripture. 1 Peter 3:12
     
  3. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    @DreamerOfTheHeart , both opinions are mutually exclusive. Keith Green used to teach, "Pray for Pre-; prepare for Post-."
     
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  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no scripture supporting a pre, mid, or post trib rapture(s). These are fabrications in search of scripture for support and not taught anywhere by scripture itself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  5. chambers1

    chambers1 New Member

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    Is rapture/harpazo/parousia to the clouds or sky to meet Jesus invalid as well?

    The verse you quote here does not nullify a pre-God's wrath rapture/harpazo/parousia imo. Will born again Christians remain on the earth for the entire 7 year period?
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

    It is often produced by adding together two of the 42 month references in the book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.


    .
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    No, that will happen to those who remain, Jesus will send His angels to gather His own to where He is- in the clouds on the way to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation, the same as happened to Philip Acts 8:39.
    Maybe not, but where is the prophecy that says the Church will be taken to heaven?
    No one leaves this earth, excepting the 2 Witnesses for a short time. The Christians who maintain their faith in God will be taken to a place of safety on earth, Revelation 12:14, while those who failed to trust completely in God, Daniel 11:32, must remain. Revelation 12:17
     
  8. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    I do not disagree with the concept of the rapture, it is backed up by multiple scripture, unless one wishes to argue semantics.

    The term speaks of the change which happens when Jesus is revealed from Heaven and believers change. This is pointed out in the parables I cited, and is shown in the transfiguration.

    Paul spoke of this most plainly when he pointed out believers would "rise up to meet Jesus", as well as when he spoke of us changing when we see Jesus: 'now we see through the glass darkly, then we will see clearly', and so on.

    Believers then will be 'changed, exchanging the perishable with the imperishable'.

    No, rising up physically is not what Paul meant by the rapture. But, that does not mean the term is invalid.
     
  9. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    I disagree, as I noted, believers are effectively in Heaven, so escape - as detailed in Revelation - the attack of Satan with the nations. When Satan tries to attack them, they are destroyed.

    This implies Satan was having no success with attacks against them before this.
     
  10. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    I would suggest reading the post, please, before responding.

    There is certainly a change in believers which comes when Jesus returns, this is supported in the verses I cited and is a core concept of Christianity. One which is shown as the 'coming of the Kingdom of God' when Jesus transfigured into his imperishable form.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The change into immortality does not happen at the Return of Jesus.
    Only at the end of the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened, will those who names are found Written there; have Eternal life conferred onto them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  12. chambers1

    chambers1 New Member

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    The bolded statements appear to be contradictory. Is there a previous post of yours that summarizes your position/interpretation of major events and a timeline that will take place during the final period? Or perhaps a Youtube video you can point me to? (I use 'final period' for lack of a better term as I see many here do not believe in a 7 yr period, tribulation, etc).
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  13. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    So, from your perspective, the Word of God on the white horse, is not Jesus? And the ones of the first resurrection, do they die before the millennium is over?
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The earths atmosphere, in the clouds.... is not leaving the earth. Do airplane passengers go to heaven?

    Re my timeline; yes I do have a 7000 year timeline using 47 given Bible time periods.
    But you are looking for a sequence of events for these last days. Here tis:
    NOW:
    The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11, Ezekiel 36:2

    They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2

    They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14 [as is the situation today]

    SOON: [We do not know the day or the hour]
    At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation, the sun to send fire - Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, , Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

    The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:4-5

    The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the EMP hit will cause them to explode - Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15

    Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalms 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9

    A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earthJoel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18

    Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17

    The atmosphere will be pushed asideRevelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4

    The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

    Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13

    He will judge the nations, all the wicked will die - Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27

    His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b

    Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12

    The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    But most people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15

    The survivors form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12

    The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14

    And the Lord's righteous people will gather there. - Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9-14

    They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31

    They will build a new TempleZechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48

    The attack by a Northern army will be won by the LordEzekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20

    The leaders of Beulah will sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15

    At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah -Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

    This commences the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2

    Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14

    3.5 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4

    The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28
    There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario.
    Believe it or not; up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6
    Ref: logostelos,info
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Jesus IS the rider of the white horse of Revelation 19:11. He Returns in glory to take up the Kingship of the world for 1000 years.

    The martyrs of Revelation 20:4, are brought back to life, just like Lazarus was. NOT immortalized yet, until the Book of Life is opened.
    Therefore they may die again, that is why Revelation 20:6 says that the second death has no power over them, because there names ARE Written in the Book of Life.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection of the dead. Scripture does not support a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture.

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

    Also
    John 11:24
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you consider the following verse to be symbolic?

    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    .
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is symbolic pertaining to Antichrist. But scripture does not mention any form of a rapture except the one following the resurrection on the last day.
     
  19. chambers1

    chambers1 New Member

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    Got it. We agree here and this was more semantics as I considered 'being in the sky/clouds' as leaving the earth, though technically not so as you suggest.

    Thanks for your detailed reply in regard to the sequence of events.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Re the AC; there will be a man who will blaspheme God and literally sit in the Temple, in Jerusalem. These things are not spiritual or allegorical. It will all happen as described. Matthew 24:15 Why not?

    Dave L, please make it clear when you mention 'rapture', where people are removed to.
    It is plain from reading 1 Thessalonians 4:17, that that removal is not to heaven, as Jesus has come down from heaven, on His way to earth for His Millennial reign.
    There is no scripture that says God will take His people up to heaven. Only the 2 Witnesses, their souls, Jesus will bring back with all the martyrs souls and bring them back to life for the Millennium.
     
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