Islam, Quran and Muhammad in Biblical Prophecies.

[mo.mentum]

One of the arguments I've heard from people trying to disprove Islam as a religion from God was to say that, if Islam and Muhammad are so important, how come they're not mentioned in the Bible?

Well folks, it was bound to happen! And here it is, a quick overview of SOME of the prophecies regarding the advent of Muhammad, and the Parakletos.

I hope to expound later on with the Deutronomy prophecies of a "prophet like unto Moses" and such.

FIRST THOUGH. In the analysis of prophecies, people tend imagine how these verses may come true at a future date. But since they already happened, we only need to see how events which happened fit the description given in these verses. If they point to several different facts, which all come together at a certain point in history, then those prophecies are PROBABLY talking about THAT point in history. Agreed?

Enjoy.


1) A Prophet from the land of Kedar

This is my favourite bit. We find prophet Isaiah in the Old Testament. In his book, there are several prophecies about the coming of Jesus. Chapter 42 begins with such a prophecy. After verse 9, God declares through Isaiah the "new things" that are to "spring forth" in the Land of Kedar.

What/Where is Kedar?? The only personality named Kedar in the is the grandson of Abraham, through his son Ishmael (Genesis 25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran, an area of the Syno-Arabian desert. Arabia is called the Land of Kedar in Rabbinic literature. Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.






A New Song!

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.<B>


​

The verses preceeding these ones speak of Jesus. Then these verses here start by saying that it will pass, afterwhich a new prophecy begins.


The "New Song" is the Qur'an, literal meaning in arabic would be something along the lines of a "Recited Text". The Qur'an is the only Scripture that was revealed in the language of the Kedarites, and they are recited like a poem, a song.

Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "New Song" and Glorify God, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in the cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca, "the inhabitants of the rock". The call to prayer resonates 5 times a day too, all over the Muslim world, the name of God is glorified through loud speakers as people are called to pray.


The Lord shall go as a "Might Man of War"

In the Old Testament, God often speaks as "I" will do this, or "I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings to do these jobs on His behalf. (see Deut. 32:39ff and 2 Samuel 12:12).

In the Book of Isaiah, we have another prophecy:

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13


​

</B>Prophet Muhammad did go forth as "a mighty man of war" against the Pagan Arabs, the enemies of The Lord. He did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating Pagan tribes in Arabia. With a war cry and roar of "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Greater than all"), the Prophet of Islam did prevail upon the enemies of The Lord - the idolaters.



The following verse also gives us more hints:

• "I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.

The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of associating others with God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with that war cry of "Allahu Akbar", through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), that these sinful practices of idolatry were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once. History attests to the speed of the spread of Islam as the fastest growth of any empire in history, ever. I don't have the exact quotes, but check the world renowned Oxford History of Islam, that should be good enough.


No doubt, Islam was spread with a "war cry", but that was not a cry of a man seeking personal power. It was a cry of The Lord, who no longer wanted to hold HIS PEACE against HIS ENEMIES.

After the victory, God bestowed HIS FAVOR upon mankind and gave the Message of "TRUE PEACE" - Islam (literaly in arabic means "Submitting to Peace". Once a person whole heartedly submits themselves to God (become a Muslim), the "True Peace" from God is bound to enter their body, mind and soul. The relationship of that individual with God is now direct, having no need for Church or Papal Authority acting as a vicar or an intermediary.



The Light from the Darkness

We know for certain that before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arabs were like the blind. We actually this era the "Jahiliya", or age of Ignorance. Their religious and social concepts were crooked and destructive. The "New Song" which came to them brought them out of that darkness. God had never sent any prophet to these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfills His promises, especially His convevant with Abraham:

"And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verse 16.


"And of the son of the bondwoman (Hagar) I will make a nation, because he is thy seed (ie: seed of Abraham)." Genesis 21:13.

​

The nations of Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham and Sarah through Isaac. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of Abraham and Hagar through Ishmael. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three children of Abraham by God's Covenants with Abraham.


History records that Prophet Muhammad put the pagan idolaters to great shame when he demolished their 365 idols in front of them. They had placed these in the Ka'bah (in Mecca), the most respected place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.

• "They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images, 'Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.

Let's look at another aspect now...

 

[mo.mentum]

2) Parakletos.
The first Epistle of Apostle John explicitly mentions Jesus Christ as being the "Paraclete" (translated to Advocate or Comforter in most version):

"My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have a Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John. 2:1​

Apostle John also wrote in his Gospel that Jesus will ask God for another "Paraclete" after him:

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16​

Usually, the above verse 14:16 ending is "for ever". The fact of the matter is; "into the age" is the literal translation of the original Greek phrase; 'eis ton aiona'. The next verse (14:17) speaks of the Spirit of Truth and NOT the Holy Spirit.

If we look at a quote from the Anchor Bible, it refers to this possible confusion:

The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1 John ii 1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. ...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).



​

Parakletos is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Jesus tells us in John 16:17 that the Paraclete will not come unless he departs from this world. This is a condition for the coming of the Paraclete.

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7​

We know that the "Holy Spirit" existed before and during the ministry of Jesus. Even since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth! (Genesis 1:2) It was also present with the prophets of the OT. The "Holy Spirit" was present "like a dove" at River Jordan when Christ was being Baptized. (Mt. 3:16).

We know that there is only ONE "Holy Spirit". Jesus saw the dove that alighted upon him. He knew that dove was the "Holy Spirit". Jesus was a RIGHTEOUS Paraclete. When he said; "Another Paraclete will come only after my departure", he meant that this Paraclete is not yet here, but will be born after he departs!

We see that the "Holy Spirit" and the "Spirit of Truth" as two different entities, especially in the following verse:

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26​

Here the Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first entity takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure. Whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it". The Greek word 'pneu'ma' (spirit), is of neutral gender and takes the pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted below, the pronoun used is "he".

• "But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

PS: History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his Trustworthiness and Honesty long before he became a prophet of God.



What will the Parakletos do?

The Messiah Jesus told his Apostles that the Paraclete will do certain things. So now all we need to do is compare what Jesus said about the "Spirit of Truth" and if Muhammad did those things.

1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." John 16:13​

The prophet Muhammad used to recite to his companions whatever he used to hear. The Qur'an is a compilation of the Divine Revelations that he received over a period of 23 years, through the ArchAngel Gabriel. His companions used to write down whatever he recited. The Qur'an doesn't contain the writings or teachings of Muhammad as many misinformed authors may say. What Muhammad taught was contained in the Hadiths, not the Qur'an.

2. "He shall glorify me" Johm 16:14​

The Qur'an glorifies the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, and his honored mother Mary. It also confirms to those who doubted that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, a Messenger of God, the Spirit from God, the Word of God AND the Righteous Prophet.

3. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26​

The Qur'an gives mankind a complete way of life. It guides mankind on how to live a pious life socially, politically, spiritually, environmentally, etc...

4. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26​

The Qur'an speaks about the teachings of Jesus and even quotes him.

5. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26​

The Qur'an attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded (Qur'an 5:110). The Qur'an acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of God, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13. Yes?


All Praise belongs to God.

 

[Searching_The_Truth]

In fact there is a topic that is troubling in the Bible, we know well that there are many prophecies in the Bible as the Soviets, the Vatican, Nabukadhnasr the king of Babylon... so the question is how it can happen that there is no reference to the man who brought a religion that will persist 1400 years after his death, whose empire dominated more than the half of the earth during hundreds of years and whose followers exceed a billion all over the world?

 

[mo.mentum]

In fact there is a topic that is troubling in the Bible, we know well that there are many prophecies in the Bible as the Soviets, the Vatican, Nabukadhnasr the king of Babylon... so the question is how it can happen that there is no reference to the man who brought a religion that will persist 1400 years after his death, whose empire dominated more than the half of the earth during hundreds of years and whose followers exceed a billion all over the world?

There is! And that is what I intend to show in these posts. What do you think of what I've posted so far?

 

[tigersnare]

Just to keep it short and to the point, I've been pressed for time lately.

I'm gonna say this and I believe many christians will relate to this....


You say the word "Parcelet" is translated as comforter.

Jesus comforts me greatly, his words and teachings are the only reason I continue living. And just as he said, he sent his holy spirit to convict us of sin, remind us of his love, remind us of his teachings, strenghthen our faith, ect. ect ect....

I am comforted by the Holy Spirit every minute of my life.


Muhammed has never comforted me in any way, shape, or form.

 

[mo.mentum]

You say the word "Parcelet" is translated as comforter.

Jesus comforts me greatly, his words and teachings are the only reason I continue living. And just as he said, he sent his holy spirit to convict us of sin, remind us of his love, remind us of his teachings, strenghthen our faith, ect. ect ect....

No argument there. Please review my quote of 1 John 2:1 and John 14:16. I never said Jesus was no comforter. But Jesus said that "another comforter" will come after him. Many have attributed this to the Holy Spirit, so I proceeded to show that it's possible that the the Holy Spirit not be the Paraclete spoken of.

Then i went to show the parallels of what Muhammad has done and how he fits the position of paraclete.

I don't blame you for not knowing what Muhammad has done, so how could i blame you for not finding comfort with him.

Also, what about the rest of the prophecies? Kedar and Paran.

 

[mo.mentum]

More interesting stuff in the Bible.

3) The city of Mecca, center or Pilgrimmage

We know that Arabs have been visiting a Holy Shrine in Mecca called the Ka'aba. It's black cube structured building that people visit for pilgrimmage right. The Ka'aba is also the direction in which all Muslims face during prayer.

This Holy city of Pilgrimmage since the time of Abraham has been mentioned in the Bible. Not only that, but it mentions it by name! Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

The Ka'aba is referred to as THE House of God, not His literal place of residence, but His House intended for worship. People in Mecca ALWAYS praise God constantly day in and day out. Once a year, literally millions of Muslims visit Mecca to perform the ritual Hajj, or Pilgrimmage to give glory to God.

The INTERESTING part is, we call this city Mecca now, so where does the name Baca come from? Well, God Almighty is well aware of all things. In one of the verses of the Qur'an, God refers to Mecca as Baca! This is in no way a typo! The way you spell Mecca and Baca in Arabic are very different.

"The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Baca; a blessed beacon for all the people. In it are clear Signs: the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj (Pilgrimage) to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone." [Qur'ân 3:96*-97]

The Ka'ba (the Cube) in Mecca. Focal point of Islam.

 

[Gabrielle]

But Jesus said that "another comforter" will come after him. Many have attributed this to the Holy Spirit, so I proceeded to show that it's possible that the the Holy Spirit not be the Paraclete spoken of.

Then i went to show the parallels of what Muhammad has done and how he fits the position of paraclete.

I don't blame you for not knowing what Muhammad has done, so how could i blame you for not finding comfort with him.

Also, what about the rest of the prophecies? Kedar and Paran.

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26

"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

"But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn.16:13

"He shall glorify me." John 16:14



But Mo.mentum, if Muhammad was the true “Paraclete,” he would have known Jesus was not just a messenger or prophet, but that he was indeed the Christ, God in flesh? Even if one did not believe Jesus was Christ, the NT certainly did. So therefore it would not make any sense for Jesus to have sent one (later) who clearly did not even know him as God.


God Bless- Gabrielle

 

[Mephster]

"The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Baca; a blessed beacon for all the people. In it are clear Signs: the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj (Pilgrimage) to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone." [Qur'ân 3:96*-97]

The Ka'ba (the Cube) in Mecca. Focal point of Islam.

Hey Mo. mentum, this post of yours was very interesting, thanks for it!
What's inside the Ka'ba? Who goes in?

 

[bouncer]

Hello Mo.mentum,

I thought your posts were interesting, so I did some research on them. These questions have been asked many times before. The answer, as is often the case, lies in looking at the entire set of verses preceding the one's you quoted thereby getting a clear picture of the context:

First, here is Isaiah 42: 5-13


The Servant of the Lord

5 This is what God the LORD says-
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 "I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 "I am the LORD ; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you."

Song of Praise to the Lord

10Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
11 Let the desert and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.
12 Let them give glory to the LORD
and proclaim his praise in the islands.
13 The LORD will march out like a mighty man,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.


As you pointed out, verses 1-8 refer to Jesus. Taking verse 9 in context, the prophet is still referring to Jesus. Notice he says, the former have taken place and NOT will take place (Jesus has not yet arrived at this time). The former thus refers to everything in the past before the coming of Jesus, and the New things that Isaiah is talking about is still, the coming of Jesus.

The 'new Song' refers to praise for the New Covenant that Jesus will bring to the people of the world and NOT the Quran.

Verse 11 says: let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice. Let the people of Sela sing for joy;.

Notice, the prophet does not say that they are to receive a new revelation, but merely, 'let them rejoice'! The question is why should Kedar and Sela rejoice ? The answer is simple, Kedar and Sela were gentile lands and through the New Covenant brought by Jesus, all gentiles and all the people of the world will be saved. What better reason to rejoice ?

Thus, it is Jesus who is being talked about here, and not the Quran or Muhammed.

 

[bouncer]

In the Book of Isaiah, we have another prophecy:

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13




​

</B>Prophet Muhammad did go forth as "a mighty man of war" against the Pagan Arabs, the enemies of The Lord. He did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating Pagan tribes in Arabia. With a war cry and roar of "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Greater than all"), the Prophet of Islam did prevail upon the enemies of The Lord - the idolaters.

First off, I hesitate calling idolaters enemies of God. True, they have gone against the one true God, but do you think God really considers them his enemies ? Does a wayward son cease being a son to his father ? All humans are children of God and NOT his enemies. The enemy of God are Satan and his assistants and those are the forces that God will fight against. God had promised after the flood of Noah that he will no longer destroy humans as he did in the flood, and in the parable of the Prodigal Son, Jesus explains how every one of us is precious to God, and yes, that includes even the idolaters. Like the father to the Prodigal Son, God wants all people to return to him and be saved. Why would he kill them ?

The following verse also gives us more hints:

• "I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.

The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of associating others with God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with that war cry of "Allahu Akbar", through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), that these sinful practices of idolatry were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once. History attests to the speed of the spread of Islam as the fastest growth of any empire in history, ever. I don't have the exact quotes, but check the world renowned Oxford History of Islam, that should be good enough.

Let us look at the verses following verse 14:

14 "For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.
15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills
and dry up all their vegetation;
I will turn rivers into islands
and dry up the pools.
16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.
17 But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, 'You are our gods,'
will be turned back in utter shame.


Does this still look like what God did through Muhammed ? Only verse 14 and verse 17, really apply to Muhammed. But then they also apply to Jesus. Verses 15, and 16 God did not do through Muhammed, it would therefore be illogical to assume that God is referring to Muhammed in 14 and 17.

 

[revolutio]

Hey Mo. mentum, this post of yours was very interesting, thanks for it!
What's inside the Ka'ba? Who goes in?

Nothing is inside it. It is ritualistically cleaned once a year I believe.

Before Mohammed claimed Mecca it used to be filled with dozens and dozens of idols to all the various Gods that were worshipped there. Mohammed had them thrown out but left the Ka'ba standing and empty to symbolize the Oneness of God.

Atleast that has been my understanding of it.

 

[bouncer]

Here the Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first entity takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure. Whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it". The Greek word 'pneu'ma' (spirit), is of neutral gender and takes the pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted below, the pronoun used is "he".

The "paraclete" argument I have seen so many times and have read many refutations of it. It can be shown easily to be an erroneous argument against the holy spirit. I can give you a detailed refutation but first I would like to point out one very obvious error in your argument. Above, you claim that the "paraclete" is actually a "he" (a male figure) and NOT an "it".



Then you go on to say:

What will the paraclete do?

The Messiah Jesus told his Apostles that the Paraclete will do certain things. So now all we need to do is compare what Jesus said about the "Spirit of Truth" and if Muhammad did those things.

1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." John 16:13​

The prophet Muhammad used to recite to his companions whatever he used to hear. The Qur'an is a compilation of the Divine Revelations that he received over a period of 23 years, through the ArchAngel Gabriel. His companions used to write down whatever he recited. The Qur'an doesn't contain the writings or teachings of Muhammad as many misinformed authors may say. What Muhammad taught was contained in the Hadiths, not the Qur'an.

2. "He shall glorify me" Johm 16:14​

The Qur'an glorifies the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, and his honored mother Mary. It also confirms to those who doubted that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, a Messenger of God, the Spirit from God, the Word of God AND the Righteous Prophet.

3. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26​

The Qur'an gives mankind a complete way of life. It guides mankind on how to live a pious life socially, politically, spiritually, environmentally, etc...

4. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26​

The Qur'an speaks about the teachings of Jesus and even quotes him.

5. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26​

The Qur'an attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded (Qur'an 5:110). The Qur'an acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of God, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13. Yes?

Point 1 refers to Muhammed, but points 2,3,4 and 5 refer to the Quran. And the Quran is also an "it" NOT a "he".

Obviously, this is just something that was visible immediately. I can also provide a more detailed refutation if you are interested.

PS: The valley of Baca is in northern Israel, so i'm not sure why the Quran refers to Mecca as Baca.

 

[tigersnare]

Well looks like Bouncer took care of it for me.....

I did the same as he did about the versus in Isaiah. And after 10 minutes of reading and studying there content, I agree that you (and I really hope you didn't come up with this on your own) forgot to take the versus preceding and following into account, and on one occasion, you cut a verse short.

Isaiah 42:10
"Sing to the Lord a new song, (and now the rest) Sing his praise from the end of the earth!!. You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it. You islands, and those who dwell on them."

What is he saying?

I'm no bible scholar but the ovbious to me is that he is talking about literally singing praises to God. Why is it a new song? Because these people who are at the end of the earth, who go down to the sea, and those of the islands are gentiles who have never known God. The will now be grafted into the vine of Abraham after the coming of Jesus, the vine of the promise of being God's people.
And in doing so they will come to know the God of Abraham for the first time and will praise his name as we do. Prophecy fulfilled! YAY!!


Also in the next verse.

42:11
"Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voices, the settlements where Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of Sela sing aloud, Let them shout for joy from the tops of the mountains. 12: Let them give glory to the Lord and declare his praise in the coastlands.

Once again it is clear to me, Kedar is not exceptional here for anymore reason than the city of Sela is. They were both examples of Gentiles/Gentile People who will recieve the gift of being grafted into the branch and following this they will lift up their voices, sing aloud, shout for joy and give glory to the Lord.

 

[tigersnare]

2) Parakletos.


The first Epistle of Apostle John explicitly mentions Jesus Christ as being the "Paraclete" (translated to Advocate or Comforter in most version).

If some else wants to go round and round about your argument here, praise to them because without studying the Greek or Aramaic I really couldn't say.....but that brings me to this point.





Do you realize you are taking quotes from the same Gospel that contains



"And the word became flesh, and dwelt amoung us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the father, full of grace and truth"



"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" (John the Babtist about Jesus Christ)



"I have seen myself and have testified that this is the Son of God"



"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; You are the King of Isreal."



"Take away these things stop making my Father's House a place of business"



"Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" (talking of his body)



"No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"



"He who believes in him is not Judged, he who does not believe has been Judged already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God"



"The father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands"



......I"m not even to Chapter 4 yet and I have found 9 versus without trying hard that you do not, and can not believe in due to your religion. According to you these versus would be amoung those where were changed. This is 9 of close to 100(over the majority probably) that believe were altered.



How can you then use scriptures from this book that is so full of error in the eyes of your religion and yourself?



Also if you don't belive Jesus is God, how can Jesus send anything or anyone?







Thanks Mo Mentum, I've enjoyed strenthening my faith through these debates, and I hope my answers serve you well, and esp serve Christians that are young in thier faith from stumbling and falling off the narrow path.



Goodnight

 

[mo.mentum]

But Mo.mentum, if Muhammad was the true “Paraclete,” he would have known Jesus was not just a messenger or prophet, but that he was indeed the Christ, God in flesh?

Good point. However, the Qur'an was giving Muhammad new information about God and His prophets. The Unity and Oneness of God is underscored, as well as Jesus's Prophethood and Honor as THE Messiah.

God tells Muhammad in the Qur'an, that Jesus was indeed The Word in the flesh! But The Word is not part of God, it is another one of His creations. When you speak, your breath makes up words that come out of your mouth, are these words a direct part of you? Do these words share your "power" to make other words? No, a word is small vibration in the air which dissipates as fast as it came. It is something you create. And thus I make a parable of God's Word to you.

Even if one did not believe Jesus was Christ, the NT certainly did. So therefore it would not make any sense for Jesus to have sent one (later) who clearly did not even know him as God.

I see the flip side of your argument. We believe Jesus WAS Christ! But cannot be God Himself. So from our stand point, if you seperate Jesus from God, then it makes sense that Jesus asks God to send the Paraclete.

When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26
Muhammad bore witness of Jesus and all the prophets before him, they are but one brotherhood, all sons of Abraham.


"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

Muhammad filled this role marvelously. He has taught us the Message of Divine Unity and God's Mercy. And taught us about all the prophets and how to pray. We were lost barbarians in the desert, and he completely reformed our society into an organized community of believers within one generation.


"But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn.16:13

This is exactly how Muhammad revealed the Qur'an. He said he would hear/feel loud vibrations, then words, the verses of the Qur'an would pour out of him without his knowing. Gabriel was in charge of teaching Muhammad the Qur'an, who in turn dictated to his companions. The beginning of EVERY chapter is "In the name of God, Most Merciful, Most Kind"


I ask you to suspend your view of Jesus and God as one, and split them into seperate independant entities and see what these verses tell you.

God is Rich, and He bestows upon us His Bounty. He doesn't need to sacrifice a son or anything for us, in order to prove His Love for us. He's already proven His love by giving us life, providing for us in every way, giving us cattle for milk/food/cloth, giving us shelter, all sorts of delicious fruit, our reason and intellect, our families and offspring, the love and intimacy between couples, compassion between living things, eyes mouths ears.

Which of Your Lord's Blessings do you deny?

 

[mo.mentum]

Hey Mo. mentum, this post of yours was very interesting, thanks for it!
What's inside the Ka'ba? Who goes in?

The president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) had the opportunity to go inside the Kaaba in 1998. He describes the following features:

- there are 3 pillars inside
- there is a table on the side to put items like perfume
- there are two lantern-type lamps hanging from the ceiling
- the space can accommodate about 50 people
- there are no electric lights inside
- the walls and floors are of marble
- there are no windows inside
- there is only one door
- the upper inside walls of the Kaaba were covered with some kind of curtain with the Kalima written on it

Kalima is the profession of faith: "There is no god but God"

The doorkeepers of the Ka'ba are still the family Banu Shayba, which were appointed by Muhammad.

Not much is known about the Ka'ba before Muhammad. What the Qur'an tells us is that it was first built by Adam, as the first house of worship to God. It was rebuilt on by Abraham and Ishmael. Abraham afterall gave us all our rites (Salat prayer, Hajj pilgrims, Ramadan fast). But the arabs, after 2000 years, turned the religion of Abraham into pagan belief and idolatry, adding 360 idols into the Ka'ba.

Muhammad only came to purify Abraham's religion and the holy site he built.

 

[peaceful soul]

If some else wants to go round and round about your argument here, praise to them because without studying the Greek or Aramaic I really couldn't say.....but that brings me to this point.





Do you realize you are taking quotes from the same Gospel that contains



"And the word became flesh, and dwelt amoung us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the father, full of grace and truth"



"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" (John the Babtist about Jesus Christ)



"I have seen myself and have testified that this is the Son of God"



"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; You are the King of Isreal."



"Take away these things stop making my Father's House a place of business"



"Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" (talking of his body)



"No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"



"He who believes in him is not Judged, he who does not believe has been Judged already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God"



"The father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands"



......I"m not even to Chapter 4 yet and I have found 9 versus without trying hard that you do not, and can not believe in due to your religion. According to you these versus would be amoung those where were changed. This is 9 of close to 100(over the majority probably) that believe were altered.



How can you then use scriptures from this book that is so full of error in the eyes of your religion and yourself?



Also if you don't belive Jesus is God, how can Jesus send anything or anyone?







Thanks Mo Mentum, I've enjoyed strenthening my faith through these debates, and I hope my answers serve you well, and esp serve Christians that are young in thier faith from stumbling and falling off the narrow path.



Goodnight

I've been telling mo.mentum, it seems like 1,000 times that Biblical context must be considered. That means you actually have to take the time and read the stuff rather than quote them. Some interesting things I have researched which also give support to what you have been saying.

A large majority of Muslims are very ignorant to what the Bible says. They have depended upon what their scholars have told them from very early in Islam's history. Islamic scholars who studied the Bible along with the Quran found out more and more as they read, they realized that the Quran and the Bible both could not be true. The differences were very concrete. The Biblical accounts couldn't be passed off as misunderstanding or misinterpreting. So, the scholars did what the atheist would do: that is, attack the Bible's credibility and integrity. This is where our very famous Corruption Theory probably came from.

It was very easy for the scholars to fool their fellow Muslims; since most Muslims were ignorant of the Bible. Also, it was considered by some Muslims to be blasphemy for anyone to closely critique the Quran; so, you had a vast majority of them who, by their ignorance, could not possibly know their Quran was at odds with the Bible; plus, it was filled with theological holes. There is more, but I will stop here.

I must make a disclaimer. All of the events may not have occured in exact order, but they represent a very clear probability to how Muslims just put all of their faith in Quran, and thus, distrust anything outside of it unless it helps their cause. It is no wonder that Satan would put a verse in Quran to discourage Muslims from trusting anything from the Book unless it was already in the Quran.

You see, if it is already in the Quran, why would you need to look anyway? Does that make sense? That is also why I think mo.mentum always keep repeating that famous saying of his, "Well, this is what the Qu'ran says. The Qu'ran is the pure word of God an is unchanging.": at least I think I'm close to the saying. Without taking a critical look at both the Quran and Bible, how can you really have an honest asessment anyhow. Therefore, how can you reall be objective. That is my opinion. I'm out.

 

[mo.mentum]

Hey bouncer!

As you pointed out, verses 1-8 refer to Jesus. Taking verse 9 in context, the prophet is still referring to Jesus. Notice he says, the former have taken place and NOT will take place (Jesus has not yet arrived at this time). The former thus refers to everything in the past before the coming of Jesus, and the New things that Isaiah is talking about is still, the coming of Jesus.

But if it refers to Jesus, and it is in Isaiah (Old Testament), it is still BEFORE Jesus, so how could it have already taken place? I believe this verse is pointing to two events. "this and this will happen. now, once these things have taken place, so and so will happen". See, enligsh isn't good for these things, it loses so much in translation. Does anyone have the Hebrew version?

The 'new Song' refers to praise for the New Covenant that Jesus will bring to the people of the world and NOT the Quran.

But didn't Jesus specifically say he wasn't here to destroy The Law? So he wasn't bringing anything new!! He was there to fix the damage done by corrupt Rabbi's. The new Covenant is the one with the OTHER descendants of Abraham which haven't received a prophet.

The question is why should Kedar and Sela rejoice ? The answer is simple, Kedar and Sela were gentile lands and through the New Covenant brought by Jesus, all gentiles and all the people of the world will be saved. What better reason to rejoice ?

hehehe first, Kedarites are not Gentiles. They are descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham, brother of Isaac (Israel), SO they are not gentiles. Jesus did not bring a New Covenant but stated himself that he didn't come to destroy The Law. You can't bring new without destroying the old.

If you look at the history of the things in the land of Kedar (Arabia) and Sela (which is just south to the Dead Sea, very close to Arabia) the people rejoiced with the advent of Muhammad. He brought with him social order and equality within one generation. They were a people deep in superstition and barbarism, but no more!

If Jesus is indeed who the people Kedar are to await, why did Christianity never spread to those Arabs? Despite the fact that Paul himself visited Petra and Arabia. The only time they received the Word of God was through Muhammad, that is when they rejoiced.

 

[mo.mentum]

First off, I hesitate calling idolaters enemies of God. True, they have gone against the one true God, but do you think God really considers them his enemies ? Does a wayward son cease being a son to his father ? All humans are children of God and NOT his enemies.

Hey. It's the Bible that says it. Not me

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13

Yes we are His children, but He also punishes us if we're bad.

The enemy of God are Satan and his assistants and those are the forces that God will fight against. God had promised after the flood of Noah that he will no longer destroy humans as he did in the flood

Well we already have a contradiction in the Bible here then. You say He promised not to destroy anyone after Noah? Then why did He destroy the people of Lot? Sodom and Gomora (sp?)! Lot was a contemporary of Abraham. Abraham came AFTER Noah. Other than these, the Qur'an speaks of the people of Aad and Thamud that were also destroyed by cataclysms.

God punishes wrong doers whenver/wherever they may be, but He always sends a warner first! The All-Merciful!

and in the parable of the Prodigal Son, Jesus explains how every one of us is precious to God, and yes, that includes even the idolaters. Like the father to the Prodigal Son, God wants all people to return to him and be saved. Why would he kill them ?

If they are killing the believers, then God will not stand still and let His Servants be oppressed. People always Pray to God when in need, or when they need a saviour. So God sends them a warner, or a prophet, or a Messenger to save them!

Does this still look like what God did through Muhammed ? Only verse 14 and verse 17, really apply to Muhammed. But then they also apply to Jesus.

I beg to differ ya 14 and 17 fit Muhammad. But so do the other ones. It is acknowleged that the Pagans of Arabia lived in darkness. Knowledge is Light. They were superstitions and ignorant of the world. Life consisted in drinking, gambling, selling/buying, and women. And idolatry of course. So add 16 to the list. 15 is obviously a sort of metaphor.