Islam Islam, Holy Icons & St. John of Damascus

[Nick Moser]

St. John of Damascus, one of the great Church Fathers, lived in a time of much change and turmoil. In a time when Orthodox doctrine was maturing, St. John confronted challenges from both outside and inside the church. From without, there was the rise of Islam to confront as St. John became the first Christian writer to approach the new faith in a systematic manner with a defense of the divinity of Christ against Islamic claims. From within, St. John defended the veneration of holy icons against the claims and attacks of the Iconoclasts. Watch our video to learn more about St. John of Damascus, also known as John Damascene, to learn more about his life and times.
St. John was also known as John Damascene and as Χρυσορρόας / Chrysorrhoas (literally "streaming with gold"—i.e., "the golden speaker"), was a (Eastern) Roman monk and priest. Born and raised in Damascus c. 675 or 676, he died at his monastery, Mar Saba, near Jerusalem on 4 December 749.

 

[Godistruth1]

St. John of Damascus, one of the great Church Fathers, lived in a time of much change and turmoil. In a time when Orthodox doctrine was maturing, St. John confronted challenges from both outside and inside the church. From without, there was the rise of Islam to confront as St. John became the first Christian writer to approach the new faith in a systematic manner with a defense of the divinity of Christ against Islamic claims. From within, St. John defended the veneration of holy icons against the claims and attacks of the Iconoclasts. Watch our video to learn more about St. John of Damascus, also known as John Damascene, to learn more about his life and times.
St. John was also known as John Damascene and as Χρυσορρόας / Chrysorrhoas (literally "streaming with gold"—i.e., "the golden speaker"), was a (Eastern) Roman monk and priest. Born and raised in Damascus c. 675 or 676, he died at his monastery, Mar Saba, near Jerusalem on 4 December 749.

Clash of ideas is bound to happen as there are opposing views of God being one or trinity and the view of jesus being god or peophet

 

[Nick Moser]

Clash of ideas is bound to happen as there are opposing views of God being one or trinity and the view of jesus being god or peophet

Well much of the Faith of Jews and Islam(Quran is a distortion) derives from the OT. The OT clearly forshaddows Jesus. For example in Isaiah 7:14 it says that;


Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the virgin is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel (That is God is with us)

 

[Godistruth1]

(Quran is a distortion)

Well same can be said about new testament. Jews dont agree NT as the new law. How you view quran is same how the jews might view the bible

 

[Limo]

Well much of the Faith of Jews and Islam(Quran is a distortion) derives from the OT. The OT clearly forshaddows Jesus. For example in Isaiah 7:14 it says that;


Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the virgin is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel (That is God is with us)

How much Percentage Jewdaism faith derived from OT ?
How much Percentage Pauline Christianty faith derived from OT ?
Regarding the OT,What have been distorted in Quran ?

The second part should be taken by a Jew but I'll use some general logic.
If Isaiah 7:14 is confirming the Devine Jesus, it would be "shall name him God or God the Son or something means God is among us"
Nevertheless, although we believe that Almasseh is born from the Virgin Mariam but I was wonderingI Is Jesus name in NT Immanuel?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Saint John Damascus is a treasure trove for the Church's theology. We owe to him our ideas concerning icons and for one of the earliest descriptions of Islam from a Christian perspective.

On his desciption of Islam, I've found it interesting that John refers to Surahs which perhaps were rejected from later compilations of the Quran. Briefly rereading him shows how old some of our modern arguments against Islam are.

Well same can be said about new testament. Jews dont agree NT as the new law. How you view quran is same how the jews might view the bible

Is it exactly the same? Christians believe in the Old Testament without qualification like Jews do, it's in our bibles. Muslims disbelieve in both Old Testament and new Testament, only using it when they think it is beneficial (which is to say they quote mine it for useful verses instead of incorporating it fully into their religion).

The Quran doesn't represent a natural progression from the Old and New Testaments, instead it is a revolutionary work which relies on almost nothing in the former except for vague stories. The New Testament, whatever you might have to say of it, clearly has in it the ideas of the Old testament and doesn't view those books as completely separate entities. This is perhaps a consequence of Muhammad never having read the Old or New Testaments, that he shows almost no direct dependence on them.

 

[Godistruth1]

Is it exactly the same? Christians believe in the Old Testament without qualification like Jews do, it's in our bibles. Muslims disbelieve in both Old Testament and new Testament, only using it when they think it is beneficial (which is to say they quote mine it for useful verses instead of incorporating it fully into their religion)

Lets see how much you do believe OT without qualification. Do you believe God can kill innocent people?

The Quran doesn't represent a natural progression from the Old and New Testaments, instead it is a revolutionary work which relies on almost nothing in the former except for vague stories. The New Testament, whatever you might have to say of it, clearly has in it the ideas of the Old testament and doesn't view those books as completely separate entities. This is perhaps a consequence of Muhammad never having read the Old or New Testaments, that he shows almost no direct dependence on them.

Its clear that you have neither read quran nor the old testament. Its pretty evident where the stories make sense and where they don't. Most of the stories in Bible are like stories with no benefit and lot of history without any actual connection to get u closer to God. Not different than a normal history book

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Lets see how much you do believe OT without qualification. Do you believe God can kill innocent people?

If the intent is to bring up an extraneous topic to impugn the character of God in the Old Testament I don't really see the point in answering such an obviously loaded question. Bring up whatever verses you like, it won't change my original point.

There is a natural continuity found between the Old and New Testaments that is not found in the Quran. This is demonstrated not merely in the examination of both sets of books but in how they are used within the Christian tradition.

Both Testaments are and have been used liturgically. Both Testaments have been read exhaustively within the Christian church. The Old Testament has been defended multiple times against those who would say we could do without the Old Testament (Marcion) .

When it comes to Islam's appreciation of both the New and Old Testament it is entirely inconsistent and selective. I've seen Muslims both mock the Bible and use it to establish their Prophet and yet they claim Muhammad is in the lineage of the Prophets of the Old Testament. This is despite Muslims not adding even the Old Testament to their canon.

There isn't a natural continuity between Islam and what came before it. This only makes sense when we actually consider Muhammad's place in history and what it would mean if we are to take Islam seriously. Namely that all the Prophets before Muhammad were failures and their flocks all without exception went astray and corrupted God's books. Except the Quran, which for some reason is specially protected. Not God's word (Jesus) though.

Its clear that you have neither read quran nor the old testament. Its pretty evident where the stories make sense and where they don't. Most of the stories in Bible are like stories with no benefit and lot of history without any actual connection to get u closer to God. Not different than a normal history book

I have not read the former in depth though how you would know I have not read the latter... I don't know.

If in reading the Bible you have merely found it a historical work with nothing we can learn from then I would suggest you haven't read it carefully enough. Go read some commentaries, not modern ones but ancient Christian commentaries on the Old Testament to learn the value we can get from it.

Still, I will defend my claim that the Quran represents a radical departure from what came before it. do you actually contest this claim? Given that your dismissal of the Bible I suspect you would be sympathetic to what I'm saying?

 

[Godistruth1]

If the intent is to bring up an extraneous topic to impugn the character of God in the Old Testament I don't really see the point in answering such an obviously loaded question. Bring up whatever verses you like, it won't change my original point.

There is a natural continuity found between the Old and New Testaments that is not found in the Quran. This is demonstrated not merely in the examination of both sets of books but in how they are used within the Christian tradition.

Both Testaments are and have been used liturgically. Both Testaments have been read exhaustively within the Christian church. The Old Testament has been defended multiple times against those who would say we could do without the Old Testament (Marcion) .

When it comes to Islam's appreciation of both the New and Old Testament it is entirely inconsistent and selective. I've seen Muslims both mock the Bible and use it to establish their Prophet and yet they claim Muhammad is in the lineage of the Prophets of the Old Testament. This is despite Muslims not adding even the Old Testament to their canon.

There isn't a natural continuity between Islam and what came before it. This only makes sense when we actually consider Muhammad's place in history and what it would mean if we are to take Islam seriously. Namely that all the Prophets before Muhammad were failures and their flocks all without exception went astray and corrupted God's books. Except the Quran, which for some reason is specially protected. Not God's word (Jesus) though.



I have not read the former in depth though how you would know I have not read the latter... I don't know.

If in reading the Bible you have merely found it a historical work with nothing we can learn from then I would suggest you haven't read it carefully enough. Go read some commentaries, not modern ones but ancient Christian commentaries on the Old Testament to learn the value we can get from it.

Still, I will defend my claim that the Quran represents a radical departure from what came before it. do you actually contest this claim? Given that your dismissal of the Bible I suspect you would be sympathetic to what I'm saying?

There is no radical departure. Its the Christians who departed from the original message being the first commandment. There is only one God and Islam upholds the same thing. Watch these

 

[dzheremi]

Well I guess if Jews say something, it must be true by default.

Like how all those Jews believe in Muhammad's prophethood and the divine revealed nature of the Qur'an, right? Right?

 

[Godistruth1]

Well I guess if Jews say something, it must be true by default.

Like how all those Jews believe in Muhammad's prophethood and the divine revealed nature of the Qur'an, right? Right?

The fact im telling u is God was always one personality not 3 personalities

 

[dzheremi]

The fact im telling u is God was always one personality not 3 personalities

"Personality"?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There is no radical departure. Its the Christians who departed from the original message being the first commandment. There is only one God and Islam upholds the same thing. Watch these

Rather than depart from a later form of Islamic theology (which didn't exist prior to Muslim theological development) Christians inherited a theology of monotheism from Judaism which was insisted upon by all of it's proponents. Christians sought to understand the Trinity from the beginning, how God is Father, Son and Spirit and yet one. I don't concede to you that we departed in any meaningful way theologically from what God revealed before hand. You would have to quote the Bible, a book you don't believe and have dismissed earlier in the thread and that's part of my point.

Islam cut itself off from the history before it, insisting that everything else was lies. Mormons have done it. Jehovah's witnesses have done it. Many groups do it and I'm suspiscious of them all. It's a revolutionary spirit that is ill suited for understanding God and how he has dealt with people. It leads to unsolvable problems such as how Jesus (according to Islam) was such a colossal failure to leave his teachings with his Apostles who then immediately corrupted them thereafter. They apparently could not withstand the force of one man, Paul. Is God so pathetic to not take one man into account?

How is the Quran a natural progression from what Jesus revealed? What were the results of the Quran? The establishment of a militaristic religion which set itself against the world violently since it's inception, including Christian civilization. Where is the natural development, how do Muslims account for God's actions without giving too much power to men to corrupt his word?

 

[Godistruth1]

Rather than depart from a later form of Islamic theology (which didn't exist prior to Muslim theological development) Christians inherited a theology of monotheism from Judaism which was insisted upon by all of it's proponents. Christians sought to understand the Trinity from the beginning, how God is Father, Son and Spirit and yet one. I don't concede to you that we departed in any meaningful way theologically from what God revealed before hand. You would have to quote the Bible, a book you don't believe and have dismissed earlier in the thread and that's part of my point

Jews agree with Muslim version of God being a monotheistic God and consider the trinity as paganism. The video I sent were both jewish.

Islam cut itself off from the history before it, insisting that everything else was lies. Mormons have done it. Jehovah's witnesses have done it. Many groups do it and I'm suspiscious of them all. It's a revolutionary spirit that is ill suited for understanding God and how he has dealt with people. It leads to unsolvable problems such as how Jesus (according to Islam) was such a colossal failure to leave his teachings with his Apostles who then immediately corrupted them thereafter. They apparently could not withstand the force of one man, Paul. Is God so pathetic to not take one man into account?

No again its trinity that is a new man made invention not One God. U need to ask jews if trinity is acceptable. I'm sure no jew will agree on trinity as One God. Jews do acknowledge the fact that Muslims worship one God and Christians worship 3.

How is the Quran a natural progression from what Jesus revealed? What were the results of the Quran? The establishment of a militaristic religion which set itself against the world violently since it's inception, including Christian civilization. Where is the natural development, how do Muslims account for God's actions without giving too much power to men to corrupt his word?

Jews worshipped one God and much of what islam teaches is similar to what jesus taught. Jesus taught the first commandment which is worship one God. There is a reason the word 'one' is the highest commandment yet Christians fail in the most important commandment. Jesus taught to do good deeds but paul changed what jesus preached. The reason why Christians go with teachings of paul than jesus because the teachings of paul seem more easier to follow than jesus. See the differences here. The words of Jesus should carry more weight than paul.

 

[Godistruth1]

"Personality"?

One person not 3 persons

 

[Lukaris]

St. Paul preached the Gospel as a chosen vessel of the Lord ( Acts of the Apostles 9, Acts of the Apostles 9:10-16 ). The summation of what St. Paul taught ( Romans 13:8-10 etc.) is the same as that of the Lord ( Matthew 19:16-19 etc.).

St. Paul emphasized grace because he preached as a chosen vessel to the Gentiles after the Lord’s Resurrection & Ascension. Still, works are a part of living faith in accordance with the Lord’s commandments ( Acts of the Apostles 26:13-20, Ephesians 2:8-10, John 14:15-18 etc.).

Note in John 14:15-18, the Lord calls the Spirit ( i.e. the Holy Spirit), “He” & “Him” ). The Lord spoke all the way back in Isaiah 48:16 ( better translation in the KJV: Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 48:16 - King James Version). In John, the Lord refers to the Spirit as a person and Himself as a person in Isaiah before His Incarnation ( John 1:1, John 1:14-18). The Lord declared St. John the Baptist as the last prophet of revelation ( Matthew 11:7-13).

St. Thalassios of Lybia ( 7th c.) provides a summation of God, the Trinity,

“Just as the single essence of the Godhead is said to exist in 3 Persons, so the Holy Trinity is confessed to have one essence. We regard the Father as unoriginate and as the source: as unoriginate because He is unbegotten, and as the source because He is the begetter of the Son and the sender forth of the Holy Spirit, both of whom are by essence from Him and in Him from all eternity. Paradoxically, the One moves from Itself into the Three and yet remains One, while the Three return to the One & yet remain Three.”