Islam, Christianity and Judaism...

[Hestha]

I have been reading WikiHow and how to become a Muslim, a Christian, and a Jew. It seems to me that becoming a Muslim is fairly easy. You just have to recite and believe a short prayer, read the Koran and other necessary books, learn how to read and speak in Arabic, converse with other pious and knowledgeable Muslims, and do other kind, goodly things. Becoming a Christian seems to be very similar to becoming a Muslim, but it involves an additional step: baptism. In Islam, the new convert would take an immediate shower after saying the prayer to cleanse himself of past sins. Also, deceased children are said to be automatically sent to heaven! In Christianity, there is a problem for unevangelized children. In Christianity, the new convert would probably have to first read a translated version of the Bible (unless the convert understands koine Greek and Hebrew), study which denomination is closest to his interpretation of the scriptures, repent, make an appointment with a priest to conduct a baptism, and be saved. In Judaism, a person has to learn and keep the Torah, worship God, and read the Tanakh. Of the three Abrahamic religions, I think Islam would be the easiest to convert and follow, Christianity second, and Judaism last. Despite that I would consider Judaism hardest to convert and follow, I think anybody who wants to be a Jew must be very disciplined in order to memorize and obey the commandments and restrictions in the Torah. I believe that self-discipline is an important virtue and a way to show one's piety and reverence. Judaism may be difficult to keep undoubtedly, especially all those dietary restrictions. I would admire anyone who would sacrifice life's pleasures (eating any type of food without any feelings of guilt) in exchange for piety, self-discipline, and reverence. Christianity seems to be more laid-back and lenient; however, it may suggest a lack of self-discipline and willingness to adhere to God's laws. What's the purpose of obeying God's laws when not obeying them just means you're going to be "forgiven" or excused? What motivates the Christian to obey God's laws when the laws of the Torah are not required for salvation? That salvation is granted freely to the sinner? What does this say about self-discipline, philosophically?

 

[motherprayer]

Praise God for the free gift of salvation.
Salvation requires only belief. That is the first part.
Ah, but then, an interesting thing happens. You begin desiring to follow God, after a time, as your faith grows. It is a process.

You don't have to "be a good person" to be saved. But God is mighty, and as belief grows, so does conviction to turn away from sinful things.

 

[hedrick]

I have been reading WikiHow and how to become a Muslim, a Christian, and a Jew. It seems to me that becoming a Muslim is fairly easy. You just have to recite and believe a short prayer, read the Koran and other necessary books, learn how to read and speak in Arabic, converse with other pious and knowledgeable Muslims, and do other kind, goodly things. Becoming a Christian seems to be very similar to becoming a Muslim, but it involves an additional step: baptism. In Islam, the new convert would take an immediate shower after saying the prayer to cleanse himself of past sins. Also, deceased children are said to be automatically sent to heaven! In Christianity, there is a problem for unevangelized children. In Christianity, the new convert would probably have to first read a translated version of the Bible (unless the convert understands koine Greek and Hebrew), study which denomination is closest to his interpretation of the scriptures, repent, make an appointment with a priest to conduct a baptism, and be saved. In Judaism, a person has to learn and keep the Torah, worship God, and read the Tanakh. Of the three Abrahamic religions, I think Islam would be the easiest to convert and follow, Christianity second, and Judaism last. Despite that I would consider Judaism hardest to convert and follow, I think anybody who wants to be a Jew must be very disciplined in order to memorize and obey the commandments and restrictions in the Torah. I believe that self-discipline is an important virtue and a way to show one's piety and reverence. Judaism may be difficult to keep undoubtedly, especially all those dietary restrictions. I would admire anyone who would sacrifice life's pleasures (eating any type of food without any feelings of guilt) in exchange for piety, self-discipline, and reverence. Christianity seems to be more laid-back and lenient; however, it may suggest a lack of self-discipline and willingness to adhere to God's laws. What's the purpose of obeying God's laws when not obeying them just means you're going to be "forgiven" or excused? What motivates the Christian to obey God's laws when the laws of the Torah are not required for salvation? That salvation is granted freely to the sinner? What does this say about self-discipline, philosophically?

A couple of comments: Most Protestants believe that young children go to heaven. Catholics at one time had a concept called limbo, but that's not as common today. I believe Catholics currently say that we don't know, but we hope for God's mercy.

As to salvation, be careful what you mean. While more is asked of converts, most Jews get there because God chose Israel, not because they keep the laws. In better Jewish theology keeping the laws is what you do as a response to God's choice. Similarly, Jesus is quite clear that obedience isn't optional. But it's a response to God's call, and is motivated by love. I can't speak for Islam.

My feeling is that it's important to see actions as coming from love, and not things that you do to get into heaven. If you see obeying rules as a way to earn your way into heaven, you tend to get pushed into a pretty legalistic kind of Christianity that quickly becomes toxic. Jesus thought that the way you renovate someone is from the inside out, by first converting the heart. Then behavior comes out of a love for God and neighbor.

The start of the process is a change in orientation of our life. Different writers, even within the Bible, describe it differently, but it's envisioned as a basic change in orientation, where actions start being based on love of God. Forgiveness isn't independent of faith. The people who are forgiven are those who are have this basic love for God. The exact order is probably different for different people. In the Gospels we often see Jesus' first statement to someone as being "your sins are forgiven" and then they respond by indicating that they intend to live new lives. But forgiveness is never separated from repentance (i.e. change in direction of our lives), faith and love. It is not, however based on any specific actions.

I've always suspected that when Jesus forgave someone it is because he saw them as either having the beginning of faith already, or at least being the kind of person who would respond to forgiveness by loving God and beginning to live as one of his people.

 

[Aravis85]

What's the purpose of obeying God's laws when not obeying them just means you're going to be "forgiven" or excused? What motivates the Christian to obey God's laws when the laws of the Torah are not required for salvation? That salvation is granted freely to the sinner? What does this say about self-discipline, philosophically?

Self-control is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to St Paul, so I suppose that what it says is that total self-discipline is only possible for humans in the context of a relationship with God. Less abstractly, what motivates anyone to do what love demands? The fear of punishment or hope of material reward doesn't exhaust the human motivations - we all do things out of sheer loyalty sometimes.

 

[Hestha]

Self-control is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to St Paul, so I suppose that what it says is that total self-discipline is only possible for humans in the context of a relationship with God. Less abstractly, what motivates anyone to do what love demands? The fear of punishment or hope of material reward doesn't exhaust the human motivations - we all do things out of sheer loyalty sometimes.

So, if an atheist who denies God but maintains steady self-discipline in order to get into med school, as becoming a doctor requires a lot of self-discipline and perseverance, then does that mean that the atheist would have this God-given gift?

 

[motherprayer]

So, if an atheist who denies God but maintains steady self-discipline in order to get into med school, as becoming a doctor requires a lot of self-discipline and perseverance, then does that mean that the atheist would have this God-given gift?

I believe so. I have thought much about gifts from God, and although I have no Scriptural basis for this, I truly feel that God blesses the lost and unsaved, even in their "lostness," but one's APPLICATION of their gift is what really matters.

 

[ebia]

I have been reading WikiHow and how to become a Muslim, a Christian, and a Jew. It seems to me that becoming a Muslim is fairly easy. You just have to recite and believe a short prayer, read the Koran and other necessary books, learn how to read and speak in Arabic, converse with other pious and knowledgeable Muslims, and do other kind, goodly things. Becoming a Christian seems to be very similar to becoming a Muslim, but it involves an additional step: baptism. In Islam, the new convert would take an immediate shower after saying the prayer to cleanse himself of past sins. Also, deceased children are said to be automatically sent to heaven! In Christianity, there is a problem for unevangelized children. In Christianity, the new convert would probably have to first read a translated version of the Bible (unless the convert understands koine Greek and Hebrew), study which denomination is closest to his interpretation of the scriptures, repent, make an appointment with a priest to conduct a baptism, and be saved. In Judaism, a person has to learn and keep the Torah, worship God, and read the Tanakh. Of the three Abrahamic religions, I think Islam would be the easiest to convert and follow, Christianity second, and Judaism last. Despite that I would consider Judaism hardest to convert and follow, I think anybody who wants to be a Jew must be very disciplined in order to memorize and obey the commandments and restrictions in the Torah. I believe that self-discipline is an important virtue and a way to show one's piety and reverence. Judaism may be difficult to keep undoubtedly, especially all those dietary restrictions. I would admire anyone who would sacrifice life's pleasures (eating any type of food without any feelings of guilt) in exchange for piety, self-discipline, and reverence. Christianity seems to be more laid-back and lenient; however, it may suggest a lack of self-discipline and willingness to adhere to God's laws. What's the purpose of obeying God's laws when not obeying them just means you're going to be "forgiven" or excused? What motivates the Christian to obey God's laws when the laws of the Torah are not required for salvation? That salvation is granted freely to the sinner? What does this say about self-discipline, philosophically?

Just a few comments. You contrast the plethora of denominations in Christianity with Islam as though the latter only has one form. In reality Islam is as divided as Christianty: Sunni, Shia, Sufi, ... Various schools of thought within each.

Also, as others have said, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are much more similar than you suppose in terms of good behaviour. None sees it as the path to get to God, but as being God's people. The difference such as it is can be emphasis: Pharasaic/Rabinnic Judaism can put the behavioural emphasis in sets of rules, Islam on obedience (which is the central idea for them), Christianity on being transformed into a virtuous person. One could possibly describe Judaism and Islam as more Deontological in their ethic and Christianity as more Aristotlean.

 

[Aravis85]

So, if an atheist who denies God but maintains steady self-discipline in order to get into med school, as becoming a doctor requires a lot of self-discipline and perseverance, then does that mean that the atheist would have this God-given gift?

All gifts are God-given, from the theist's perspective. But I would say that perfect self-control - or perfection in any virtue - is unachievable except in conscious reliance on God. There's a point beyond which human effort can't go, but we are promised that God will carry us past that point.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

I have been reading WikiHow and how to become a Muslim, a Christian, and a Jew. It seems to me that becoming a Muslim is fairly easy. You just have to recite and believe a short prayer, read the Koran and other necessary books, learn how to read and speak in Arabic, converse with other pious and knowledgeable Muslims, and do other kind, goodly things. Becoming a Christian seems to be very similar to becoming a Muslim, but it involves an additional step: baptism. In Islam, the new convert would take an immediate shower after saying the prayer to cleanse himself of past sins. Also, deceased children are said to be automatically sent to heaven! In Christianity, there is a problem for unevangelized children. In Christianity, the new convert would probably have to first read a translated version of the Bible (unless the convert understands koine Greek and Hebrew), study which denomination is closest to his interpretation of the scriptures, repent, make an appointment with a priest to conduct a baptism, and be saved. In Judaism, a person has to learn and keep the Torah, worship God, and read the Tanakh. Of the three Abrahamic religions, I think Islam would be the easiest to convert and follow, Christianity second, and Judaism last. Despite that I would consider Judaism hardest to convert and follow, I think anybody who wants to be a Jew must be very disciplined in order to memorize and obey the commandments and restrictions in the Torah. I believe that self-discipline is an important virtue and a way to show one's piety and reverence. Judaism may be difficult to keep undoubtedly, especially all those dietary restrictions. I would admire anyone who would sacrifice life's pleasures (eating any type of food without any feelings of guilt) in exchange for piety, self-discipline, and reverence. Christianity seems to be more laid-back and lenient; however, it may suggest a lack of self-discipline and willingness to adhere to God's laws. What's the purpose of obeying God's laws when not obeying them just means you're going to be "forgiven" or excused? What motivates the Christian to obey God's laws when the laws of the Torah are not required for salvation? That salvation is granted freely to the sinner? What does this say about self-discipline, philosophically?

In order of easiness, not only of conversion but of practice:

Christianity demands that potential converts simply utter a prayer of recognition and submission to Jesus Christ to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Views on baptism vary between denominations and even individual churches inside of a denomination. One can be saved, and enter into the glory of God, simply by uttering the simple "I believe you died for my sins, Lord Jesus" on their deathbed. Christians do have commandments that bind them; but these are often downplayed in Churches and emphasis is based upon the "golden rule" to love others as oneself. Further, with absolute and perfect salvation comes the idea that one can no longer sin which causes some Christians to become quite hypocritical in their faith.

Christians believe that obedience to the commandments, and to God, will be instilled in them by their strong faith and belief, as well as by the Holy Spirit taking up residence in their soul/heart.

Islam demands that a potential convert be educated, at least, on the basics of the faith and on the Qur'an before attempting conversion. It is possible to recite the shahadah (statement of faith, it's verbal recitation is required for entry into Islam) and the conversion be deemed ineffectual due to improper education, understanding of the faith and/or the Qur'an, or even because it was not pronounced or done properly. Most of Islam understands and requires that at least two witnesses be present during the initial recitation of the shahadah for a conversion to be legitimate.

Muslims believe that sin is eradicated during conversion; however, sin can be accumulated after conversion. Sin is considered bad and must be actively eradicated through prayer and redemption rituals similar to Judaism's. Most sin comes from actively breaking a commandment. Accidentally breaking a commandment may or may not be considered sinful.

One does not have to learn Arabic to be a good Muslim and, indeed, many Muslims never learn Arabic or complete a pilgrimage. While this is not ideal, it is a fact and exceptions are usually made due to financial situation and/or other concerns in life.

Judaism does not actively proselytize and potential converts are, often, actively dissuaded. If a potential convert is accepted by a mentor, which would be a Rabbi sponsoring their conversion, they begin a life of study and preparation. Once one converts into Judaism there is no going back and one must follow all of the commandments all of the time. In Islam one is excused from many commandments while they learn of them; but in Judaism you are not excused from even the least-most commandment from the moment you rise from the mikveh.

Potential converts must learn the commandments which pertain to them, must learn to read Hebrew script (even if they do not understand Hebrew), must convert to kasher eating, and so on, before they are allowed to convert. Orthodox conversions require the potential convert to move into a Jewish community and their home must be open for inspection.

The potential convert faces a beit din (House of Judgement), a Jewish court of Law, when they are ready to convert. They must demonstrate knowledge of Hebrew, read in Hebrew, and answer many questions including, but not limited to: why one wishes to convert, what one hopes to achieve from conversion, how long one has studied for conversion, and so on. They must also demonstrate knowledge of the mitzvot (commandments), how they are to follow mitzvot that pertain to them, and what should be done if they have sinned.

Hope that helped!

 

[Hestha]

Then, there is always atheism. In atheism, you don't really have to do anything religious or spiritual. At the end of your life, your soul will probably cease to exist and sink into oblivion.

I'd rather be an atheist then.

 

[motherprayer]

Then, there is always atheism. In atheism, you don't really have to do anything religious or spiritual. You just "live and let live".*

*within reason. This does mean doing unethical activities, like robbing a bank or killing people.

Yes, for now. As long as we breathe, we have a choice as far as our belief. But what we choose while we breathe has eternal consequences.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Then, there is always atheism. In atheism, you don't really have to do anything religious or spiritual. At the end of your life, your soul will probably cease to exist and sink into oblivion.

I'd rather be an atheist then.

The vast majority of atheists believe there is no soul.

However, one should not look for religion based upon what you hope to get out of the afterlife - if that was the case I'd be into Ancient Nordic Paganism so that when I die my soul would go to Valhalla, if I died in glorious battle, and I could drink and feast and fight the rest of eternity (well, until Ragnarok hits...)

Are you looking for a religion?

 

[Aravis85]

Then, there is always atheism. In atheism, you don't really have to do anything religious or spiritual. At the end of your life, your soul will probably cease to exist and sink into oblivion.

I'd rather be an atheist then.

That seems to depend on the assumption that reality alters with your beliefs: for Christians, God exists and their lives have eternal consequences for good or evil, while He considerately blinks out of existence for atheists and does not make them any offer of eternal life. I don't think that's true - either Christianity is objectively false or atheism is objectively false - so there isn't much point choosing a belief-system based on what is more comfortable to believe.

 

[Hestha]

The vast majority of atheists believe there is no soul.

However, one should not look for religion based upon what you hope to get out of the afterlife - if that was the case I'd be into Ancient Nordic Paganism so that when I die my soul would go to Valhalla, if I died in glorious battle, and I could drink and feast and fight the rest of eternity (well, until Ragnarok hits...)

Are you looking for a religion?

No. I am actually quite satisfied being irreligious or devise my own sort of religion, like Pastafarianism.

 

[hedrick]

Christianity demands that potential converts simply utter a prayer of recognition and submission to Jesus Christ to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Views on baptism vary between denominations and even individual churches inside of a denomination. One can be saved, and enter into the glory of God, simply by uttering the simple "I believe you died for my sins, Lord Jesus" on their deathbed. Christians do have commandments that bind them; but these are often downplayed in Churches and emphasis is based upon the "golden rule" to love others as oneself. Further, with absolute and perfect salvation comes the idea that one can no longer sin which causes some Christians to become quite hypocritical in their faith.

I'm not sure I quite agree with this. I understand the point. It's true that God isn't like Santa "making a list and checking it twice" to see who is "naughty and nice." It's also true that it could be done on the deathbed, though I question how common it is for someone to live a godless life and repent at the last moment; sin tends to harden us. But I know of no Biblical evidence that we become followers of Christ by saying any specific prayer. The Bible speaks instead of repentance, which is changing the orientation of our lives (in this context; it can also mean turning away from a specific sin we've committed), and faith, which I believe for Paul refers to the basic orientation of our lives. God is happy to forgive failures, but still, we have to be his people. Paul characterizes this as being "in Christ."

 

[OneWithTime]

Becoming a Muslim is far more harder brother and I was a Muslim before. And also, you cannot listen to music as a Muslim. Cannot have birthdays, own dogs other then for hunting, fast for a whole month, perform salah 5 times a day. And nothing is easy with learning Arabic and I never got great at it but I can still do it.