Islam a religion of peace/violence...?

[gnine]

I'm not intending this to be a debate, rather I was thinking about the oft repeated statement that "Islam is a religion of peace" or conversely "Islam is a violent religion"

It occurred to me that in order to make such blanket statements, its necessary to presume that there is a core of "truth" in Islam - i.e. there is a true and objective Islam. Assuming that no-one can read the long dead mind of Mohammed to determine what he really meant, making sweeping assertions about the "true" Islam is almost the same as acknowledging that it is divinely inspired.

I believe that Islam is simply wrong, and that there is no divinely inspired, true version of Islam. So the question of whether Islam is peaceful or violent suddenly loses its objective standard.

The upshot of all this is that:

• Some muslims are violent, and when they are violent in the name of Islam, then Islam is violent.
• Some muslims are peaceful, and when they are peaceful in the name of Islam, then Islam is also peaceful.

I don't believe that they can be all grouped together as either "violent" or "peaceful" for the reasons above.


Regardless, we should be loving our muslim neighbors as individuals and letting them know the gospel so they can come into the true light.

 

[Pyrogenesis]

Yea, that's pretty much what I think. There are Muslims that use Islamic teachings as an excuse for their violence, and there are Muslims that live at peace with everyone else. The same can be said of any belief; there are Christians that blow up abortion clinics, for example.

 

[ebia]

Agreed to a point.

However, what we call Islam, is liable to be (at least in part), a self fulfilling prophesy. If we describe Islam as violent, we are setting ourselves up for a fight. If we treat Muslims with respect and Islam as a peaceful religion, we are more likely to get peace and respect in return.

 

[gnine]

The same can be said of any belief; there are Christians that blow up abortion clinics, for example.

Agreed, there are christians that blow up abortion clinics, but we can be reasonably sure that Christ Himself does not condone that practice.

However, we can't say the same thing about Islam, because we can't say that Allah would approve/disprove of such a practice... for the simple reason that Allah doesn't exist.

Do you see the difference? What is important about Islam is how it is interpreted by the individual... its actual teachings are almost irrelevant, as its liable to be interpreted many different ways by different people. Therefore the statement "Islam is a religion of peace" or "Islam is a violent religion" makes little objective sense.

 

[JunkYardDog]

Agreed to a point.

However, what we call Islam, is liable to be (at least in part), a self fulfilling prophesy. If we describe Islam as violent, we are setting ourselves up for a fight. If we treat Muslims with respect and Islam as a peaceful religion, we are more likely to get peace and respect in return.

Yaeh, you get back what you give, right? Kind of like all the love and good Jesus spread around got Him CRUCIFIED!

 

[ebia]

Agreed, there are christians that blow up abortion clinics, but we can be reasonably sure that Christ Himself does not condone that practice.

I'm sure you could find Christians that would disagree though.

However, we can't say the same thing about Islam, because we can't say that Allah would approve/disprove of such a practice... for the simple reason that Allah doesn't exist.

A Muslim would make exactly the equivalent claim.

Do you see the difference? What is important about Islam is how it is interpreted by the individual... its actual teachings are almost irrelevant, as its liable to be interpreted many different ways by different people.

And the Bible isn't?

The only substantive difference I can see is that Christianity has a single huge entitiy representing a substantial proportion (majority?) of Christians - the RCC. Nothing equivalent exists in Islam.

 

[ebia]

Yaeh, you get back what you give, right? Kind of like all the love and good Jesus spread around got Him CRUCIFIED!

I didn't say it works 100%, but it is true to a remarkable extent.

 

[JunkYardDog]

I didn't say it works 100%, but it is true to a remarkable extent.

Not when your gospel includes having people repent of their religion.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

Islam, like Christianity, is a religion of peace and prayer and love.

And, like Christianity, the Islamic religion goes through times of violence, mainly brought about by extremists.

 

[ebia]

Not when your gospel includes having people repent of their religion.

Tosh.

You win people for Christ by showing them it's better. People stop taking you seriously if they think you hate them, think you misunderstand them, or if they think you are a fool.

If you want people to take you seriously, then you'll do much better if you show them respect first.

 

[JunkYardDog]

Tosh.

You win people for Christ by showing them it's better. People stop taking you seriously if they think you hate them, think you misunderstand them, or if they think you are a fool.

If you want people to take you seriously, then you'll do much better if you show them respect first.

Please explain this how this "works" to the Christians living in India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Qatar, Abu Dahbi, Yemen, Paksitan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Nigeria.

 

[ebia]

Please explain this how this "works" to the Christians living in India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Qatar, Abu Dahbi, Yemen, Paksitan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Nigeria.

The only one of those I have personal experience of is N.W.F.P, Pakistan (the most fundamentalist Islamic corner of Pakistan), and a great deal of the problem there is that Muslims do think:
Christians hate them.
Christians think they are violent.
Christians don't understand Islam.
Christans are fools.

This isn't based on what the Christians there do or say - there aren't enough of them that they get noticed much - but what Christians in your country say and do. As long as American Christians are shouting "Islam is bad", the Christians in Peshawar can't even get heard.

 

[JunkYardDog]

[font=&quot]A Little History Test
[/font][font=&quot]
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test. The events are actual events from history.

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. A Muslim male, between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed in-flight by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. Who bombed the Spanish railway a couple of years ago, killing many innocent civilians and terrorizing that country?
a. The Teletubies
b. Michael Jackson
c. The Village People
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

14. And who just bombed the City of London, twice!!!:
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
d. Muslim males, mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

(Not included here are the thousands of Christians enslaved or killed solely because they were Christians as documented by Voice of the Martyrs and others over the last 30 years.)

Second question added on on each of these:

What was the official response of the world's Musilm leaders to each of these events?

a. Silence
b. A remonstrance that the West should expect such things because of past mistreatment of Moslems
c. Concern that people might respond against Moslems with hate crimes like spray painting their mosques
d. All of the above


[/font]

 

[Sam Gamgee]

[font=&quot]A Little History Test
[/font][font=&quot]
*snip*

[/font]

Every religion has it's religious fanatics that do things in the name of their religion...

Even Christianity...

Do I need to remind you of the Chtistians who have shot people at abortion clinics or Christians who have killed gay men and women in the name of God?

Your test does not discount the Islamic religion. It only discounts those particular people.

 

[statrei]

Islam, like Christianity, is a religion of peace and prayer and love.

And, like Christianity, the Islamic religion goes through times of violence, mainly brought about by extremists.

How can you not be violent when you have the truth?

 

[statrei]

Please explain this how this "works" to the Christians living in India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Qatar, Abu Dahbi, Yemen, Paksitan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Nigeria.

Christians promise that everyone who does not accept their religion will be tormented in fire for eternity. What is the difference? Does is matter if you do it on God's behalf or if He does it on your behalf? Violence is violence.

 

[JunkYardDog]

The only one of those I have personal experience of is N.W.F.P, Pakistan (the most fundamentalist Islamic corner of Pakistan), and a great deal of the problem there is that Muslims do think:
Christians hate them.
Christians think they are violent.
Christians don't understand Islam.
Christans are fools.

This isn't based on what the Christians there do or say - there aren't enough of them that they get noticed much - but what Christians in your country say and do. As long as American Christians are shouting "Islam is bad", the Christians in Peshawar can't even get heard.

You have destroyed your own argument. You admit that they think evil of Christians falsely -- even though it is not based upon what what they do or say. Maybe there is something SPIRITUAL behind that hatred of Christians, huh? For decades, American Christians (and other Westerners) have poured billions in money and work to assist these countries -- long before 9-11 and long before there was ever much being said about Moslems. They showed LOVE by sending disaster relief (a lot more than any Arab countries ever did), and they still hate us. Jesus said they hated Him because He testified to them that their deeds were evil. He said that if they hated Him, they would hate us. He said, "Blessed are you when men hate you and speak evil of you falsely . . ." and so they have done. True, we have said recently, "Islam is bad." It IS bad. People who follow that way are idolaters headed for Hell. This is a SAVING truth they need to hear and will not hear by quietly being nice and lying about the fact that their religion is evil.

I notice you are from Australia, but single out Americans. Are you saying that nobody in Austrailia is saying that Islam is bad?

 

[ebia]

I could come up with a similar list of violent people calling themselves Christian. I won't bother because it would prove exactly the same as your list - absolutely nothing.

[font=&quot]

[font=&quot]What was the official response of the world's Musilm leaders to each of these events?

a. Silence
b. A remonstrance that the West should expect such things because of past mistreatment of Moslems
c. Concern that people might respond against Moslems with hate crimes like spray painting their mosques
d. All of the above
[/font]

Well, d is a logical impossiblity. That aside, there are heaps of muslim leaders that have spoken out against attrocities done in the name of Islam, but Islam does not have big authority figures equivalent to the Pope and other major christian church leaders; Islam doesn't work like that.

While you keep fanning the flames of hate you are doing the same as the Imams in the Madrassas of Pakistan. No-one is going to hear anyone until one side stops shouting messages of hate, and starts listening to the other side. If we really are right - if Christanity has the truth that Islam lacks - then it behoves us to be the ones to stop and listen.
[/font]

 

[Artos]

Please explain this how this "works" to the Christians living in India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Qatar, Abu Dahbi, Yemen, Paksitan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Nigeria.

Some Christians in those countries are having a real hard time because of persecution. But most Christians in those countries do not share the aggressive type of American attitude towards Muslims.

I met an American evangelist with such views recently. He was telling me how terrible it is that 'these people' ie 'Muslims' are doing this or that around the world....

I had to say to him, " Look, 'these people' whom you are talking about are not 'THEY' to me. These people are MY people. They would die for me in my country because they are our citizens....and I hope I would be able to do the same for them...because they are part of MY country and they are MY people too. If Americans dont see them as being part of your country- that's your problem. In my country (a fairly multiracial one in Asia), they are part of MY family. So back off with your ranting! You dont represent the worldwide Christian body, you represent only a segment of America.....And America's NOT the world....."

 

[Sam Gamgee]

How can you not be violent when you have the truth?

Violence happens every day by people who know the truth...

Ever hear the term "Holy War"??