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Isaiah prophecy question

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by marcb, Dec 9, 2008.

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  1. marcb

    marcb Regular Member

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    Hi,

    I am new to this section of CF, so please forgive and redirect if this is the wrong branch of the forum in which to ask the following questions:

    I am reading through Isaiah for the first time and was wrestling through several topics. Can anyone direct me to a good source on the following (or simply provide your insight)?

    1. In Chapter 19, judgement against Egypt is pronounced that includes some specifics (e.g., drying up of waters).

    2. The chapter concludes with a reference to 5 (Egyptian) cities' allegiance to God.

    Are these prophecies that 1. Have been fulfilled 2. Are in process of being fulfilled, 3. Are future prophecies?

    I appreciate your answers/insight into these questions.

    Faith seeking understanding,

    Marc
     
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  2. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that's definitely future. I've never known Egypt to worship the Lord.

    Check out Daniel 11:43 and Zech 14:16-21 as well.
     
  3. champuru

    champuru I don't know what I want to put here. Suggestions?

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    welcome to this section :) i have heard about a lot of prophecies but i dont remember finding much teaching on this one. i took did a quick search and found a website that claims that it is happening now. i'd have to do a little more research to give you a definite answer.
     
  4. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    If you have the money, and can afford it, here is one of the very best written commentaries on the Book of Isaiah:

    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Found here

    Not bad for only $21.99

    In seminary classes, this was the book we used for my class "Isaiah."

    I still have it.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  5. LamorakDesGalis

    LamorakDesGalis Well-Known Member

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    One must remember that chapter 19 concerning judgment on Egypt is in the middle of a major section of Isaiah (chapters 13-23) about judgment on individual, specific nations. Chapters 13-23 has a mixture of near future judgment with far future judgment concerning the individual nations. And the future universal judgment is heavily accented by the next section (chapters 24-27) which concentrate on universal judgment against the whole world, followed by universal blessing on the world.

    The phrase "In that day" is one key clue for identifying some of the future, final judgment statements.


    In Isaiah 13-27 - as well as other such prophecies - there are both historical and future (eschatological) aspects present within the text. The issue is similar (and related) to how Christians interpret the Olivet discourse in the gospels and the book of Revelation.

    Some Christians, who tend not to go into the details, lean heavily in the historical direction and say most if not all has been fulfilled already. They would say the Nile drying up would have been something fulfilled in the past, without necessarily pointing to a specific event for it. They would also say that the 5 cities turning to God would have been generically fulfilled with the spread of Christianity or the gospel into Egypt.

    Other Christians, who do tend to get into the details, look for possible historical fulfillments for the events. If there are no historical fulfillments that fit the interpretation, then its possible that its a future event. So the "power of a cruel master" in 19:4 would fit an Assyrian king like Esarhaddon. Also a phrase such as "In that day" is an eschatological phrase - which is ke reference clue to events in the final judgment. So in 19:18 the phrase "In that day" points to a future event with reference to the 5 Egyptian cities.

    So those are the two broad approaches.

    A good, online source is located here:

    http://www.soniclight.com/constable/notes.htm


    LDG
     
  6. marcb

    marcb Regular Member

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    Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. Blessings, Marc
     
  7. rdclmn7

    rdclmn7 Regular Member

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    5 cities are those of the Philistines.
    These are the frontier of the historic period.

    The end time refers to a road that reaches from Assyria to Egypt.
    The 5 cities are frontier cities redefined in the future.
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    First of all, I love your final sentence, "Faith seeking understanding." As long as this is your approach, you will learn.

    I look at Isaiah 19 in its context. As LDG has pointed out, there are many indicators in this passage to show that the last days are under discussion, chiefly the oft repeated phrase, "in that day."

    But look back to Isaiah 18. In this chapter we have a land "beyond the rivers of Ethiopia." What are the rivers of Ethiopía? Some have quite incorrectly assumed these are the Blue Nile and the White Nile. But in the time of Isaiah, Ethiopia was a divided nation.

    The ancient Greek historian Heroditus, often called "the father of history," told of how Ethiopia became divided. They originally lived along the upper reaches of the Euphrates River, where they became too large a nation for their territory. So they sent out scouts to find a fertile uninhabited land which they could take without a war. The scouts returned with the report that there was a large and fertile uninhabited land along the uper reaches of the Nile River. So the elders decided to move there. But many did not wish to move. So a great convocation was held. There it was decided that if enough people moved, there would be plenty of room left for those that stayed. So it was decreed that everyone who wanted to move would go, and everyone who wanted to stay would stay. About half the population moved to the Nile River, bur half remained on the Euphrates. So "the rivers of Ethiopia" were the Nile and the Euphrates. But the Nile and the Euphrates were in the opposite direction from ancient Israel, where this was said. It was as if the prophet lifted his arms and pointed in two opposite directions and said "it´s that way!"

    Thus, the prophet told of a nation on the other side of the world that would send ambassadors to Israel. These ambassadors would come over the sea in swift vessels. In the 1850´s, a man named William Kelly wrote concerning the Hebrew word used to describe these vessels. He said that "this is a very strange word, used in this way nowhere else in scripture. It is obviously some kind of a vessel, but it is definately not a boat!" So in the 1850´s a man who had never heard of an airplane noticed that these ambassadors would come from the other side of the world in swift vessels that were not boats! I personally believe that this is a reference to (at least) some of the many American ambassadors sent repeatedly to Israel. But God says He will blow on it and it will come to nothing.

    The only point of mentioning this here is that this definately seems to refer to the last days.

    Then we look at Isaiah 20. Here we see the king of Assyria attacking Egypt. But he also leads away the people of Ethiopia captives. If you click on the name of anyone who posts in this forum and follow the links you find there, you will will find a directory of all the threads started by that person. If you do this for me (Biblewriter) you will find several threads about "the Assyrian." In these you will find extensive evidence to back up my conclusion that "the Assyrian" of Isaiah, Micah, and Nahum is the same end time individual as "the king of the north" in Daniel 11, verses 40-45. As this would make this post very long, I will not repeat it here. (Sorry, although I´ve been here a long time, I still don´t know how to post a link to these threads.)

    In Daniel 11, after attacking "the glorious land" (plainly meaning Israel,) "the king of the north" attacks Egypt and leads away the Ethiopians. This is unquestionably in the last days, as it specifically states that this will happen "at the time of the end."

    So we find end time events in the chapters before and after Isaiah 19.

    (to be continued)
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Looking now at the chapter in question itself, we first notice that the end of the chapter is unquestionably future, for in the last three verses we read, "In that day there shall be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria. and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance."

    Now it is remotely possible that such a highway might have existed in ancient times at a time when there were many Christians in both Egypt and Assyria. But there was nothing even remotely resembling a national repentance of Israel at any time when there were more or less widespread conversions in Egypt and in Assyria. So this passage has most unquestionably not yet been fulfilled.

    Again, there have been severasl times when the land of Judah has been a terror to the land of Egypt. But this has never happened since the time of Christ, so it could not have been fulfilled at the time mentioned in the last three verses.

    History contains no reference to a time when "five cities in the land of Egypt" spoke "the language of Canaan," nor has there ever been a city in Egypt called "the city of destruction."

    It has already been mentioned that history contains no record of a time when the Nile River was turned away so that it did not flow through Egypt.

    But most of all, we notice that all this happens when "the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come imto Egypt." (verse 1) And Egypt "shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he shaketh over it." (verse 16) If we take these scriptures literally, they plainly refer to the Lord´s physical presence there, which we know will not happen until the time of the end.

    In my last post I mentioned the connection between the cruel lord into whose hand Egypt will be given with Daniel 11.

    So I conclude that this entire chapter, with the ones before and after it, speak of the last days.
     
  10. HarrisonS

    HarrisonS Junior Member

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    Unfortunately, while there is a number of commentaries on the book of Isaiah, I know of none that is both thoroughgoing and theologically sound. Some of them are sketchy, and others are written from an amillennial viewpoint and give at times fanciful or even bizarre interpretations.

    You might also consider first studying some of the other prophets, for which there are some excellent commentaries. For example, I can recommend without any qualification all of the writings by Charles Lee Feinberg, who was considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest Hebrew Old Testament scholar of the 20th century. He has written commentaries on Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and the minor prophets. These are clearly written and easy to understand, and will enable you to acquire a clearer perspective of the Old Testament and its prophecies, both fulfilled and yet-to-be-fulfilled. Armed with this, you will be better equipped to tackle the book of Isaiah.
     
  11. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Motyer is good. Brevard Childs is another good one. I want both of those myself, but right now I have just Oswalt's Isaiah commentary (it's good too).
     
  12. Covenant Heart

    Covenant Heart Principled Iconoclast

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    Are we asking the right questions?

    I see that no one is inquiring into the theological import of Isa 19. Why is that? Perhaps it is because theology, like the church, is undergoing massive collapse right beneath our noses. But who cares? Speculation is fun and has a long tradition even if Paul spurned it.

    We've got it in our heads that prophecy means prediction. But by in large, the prophets' ministry was much like what we would call 'preaching.' Their words were 'prophecy' whether they contained predictions or not. Preaching the word of God for their own time was always the primary concern of the prophets.
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    While this was almost certainly the primary concern of the men themselves. it was not the primary point of what they wrote. This is not just my opinion, but is expressly stated in 1 Peter 1:10-12 "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into."

    As a side note, although the commentaries mentioned by HarrisonS and yekcidmig are very good, the fact that the Assyrian discussed in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30,and 31 is an end time figure is missed by essentially every modern commentator.

    In Isaiah 7 we see him overrunning Judah at the same time as Egypt. This has never happened. In Isaiah 10 his path in approaching Jerusalem is precisely defined. No ancient attacked ever approached along this path. In Isaiah 14, immediately after mentioning the destruction of the ancient Assyrian, Philistia is told not to rejoice because a descendant of this evil ruler would slay them. In Isaiah 30 he is beaten down by the voice of the Lord, with lightning and the flame of a devouring fire. This did not happen in ancient times. The army of Sennacherib was destroyed by pestilence. And in Isaiah 31 his young men are made slaves. This never happened in ancient times.

    Again in Micah 5, Israel will raise up against his seven shepherds and eight principle men, and they will waste with the sword the land of Assyria. This has most certainly never happened. For more detail on this, see my thread on "THE ASSYRIAN"
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2008
  14. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Isaiah 19 could be fulfilled during the millennium (cf. Zechariah
    14:16-19).

    ---

    The Assyrian in Isaiah 7:17-20 could be the Assyrian in 2 Chronicles
    28:20.

    ---

    The Assyrian in Isaiah 10:5-34 could be the Assyrian in Isaiah
    chapters 36-37.

    ---

    Isaiah 7:17-20 doesn't require a simultaneous invasion of Judah by
    both Assyria and Egypt, for the "river of Egypt" wasn't the Nile, but
    a wadi which formed the boundary between Philistia and Egypt
    (Joshua 15:47,4).

    ---

    There's no proof that no ancient invasion ever approached Judah
    along the path of Isaiah 10:28-32.

    ---

    Isaiah 14:29 could refer to Tiglath-Pileser III and Sennacherib.

    ---

    Isaiah 30:31 could refer to the Antichrist.
     
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    There is no "could" to it. The last part of this chapter is definitely millennial. But the first part cannot be, because it speaks of war, and there will be no war during the millennium.
    This is not possible, because it speaks of simultaneous swarms from Assyria and from Egypt. This never happened in ancient times, but is expressly prophesied of the end times in Daniel 11:40.
    This is not possible because the Assyrian of Isaiah 10 is sent against an hypocritical nation, andagainst the people of God's wrath, and Hezekiah was the most Godly king Judah ever had, and the people were of one heart in following him in following the Lord.

    Isaiah 10:12 says that this Assyrian will be punished "when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on jerusalem." That has not yet been finished.

    Isaiah 10 20 says that "the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth." They have even yet not learned this lesson.

    Isaiah 10:25 says that the Lord's Indignation and anger will cease in the destruction of these Assyrians. But that indignation and anger has even yet not ceased.

    And The attacker in Isaiah 36-37 came from Lacish. that is the opposite direction from the path described in Isaiah 10:28-3
    The "wadi of Egypt" is a single strream that only runs sometimes. "The rivers of Egypt" is plural, and thus could not refer to a singular wadi.

    You have said this again and again, but this is simply argumentative. You are perfectly aware that both secular history and scripture clearly say that Sennacherib's army approached Jerusalem by a different path. And scripture clearly says he never came there at all.
    Nor is there even one historical account of any othjer army approaching along this path.

    But you are so invested in your "might of hapened, could happen" system of interpretation that you resolutely refuse to listen to reason.
    Verse 29 clearly refers to verse 25, which was unquestionably Sennacherib, not Tiglath-Pipeser III. So the second attacker could not be Sennacherib.
    This would only be possible if your interpretation that the Assyrian is the Antichrist is correct. But this is not possible for many reasons. All the scriptural and historical evidence in this post has already been clearly pointed out to you, but you are intransegent. You refuse to accept correction from the Holy Scriptures or from history, and continue to imagine past scenarios for which there is no evidence and future scenarios for which there is no scriptural basis. Until you submit your imagination to the Holy Scriptures, I see little hope for you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  16. Gary777

    Gary777 Gary777

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    Some put this in the future since the nile never has been dried up since Isaiah (or most probably ever). If, like all commentaries do, you propose that "dried up" (the KJV tranlsation) doesnt actually mean "dried up" entirely, just dried up enough to make a famine, people will accuse you of not being true to the word. If you have a problem with these unbelivers that wrote all the commentaries, then at least do a word study on "yabesh" and see that most of the times, if not all (when it talks about water, and not kings beins slain etc.) it is used in the sense "dried, but not dried up entirely, just dried up more than usual.". Its even used when God "dried up" the red sea and moses and the guys walked right trough it. Or when God "dried up" the earth so that noah could set his foot there. Yes the earth never saw water again, it got so dry!

    So if someone is waiting for THE NILE to "dry up" entirely....don't wait any longer, because i know exactly when it will happen: it will happen just about the same time when the antichrist sits down in the temple in Jerusalem and declares he is god and that everybody in the world must be get a tattoo that sais "i love Obama"

    Oh the sarcasm...it stings so good!!
     
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    If we restricted our study to isaiah 19, your argument would seem to have merit. But you forget Isaiah 11:15, which says, "And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod." Men cannot pass dryshod over a river that has only been partially dried up.

    I would caution you to be careful aout mocking what the scriptures say. You may find that your interpretation is incorrect, and that God really meant his words that these things will happen. You are only intending to mock what you believe is our incorrect tnterpretation, But God just mighht judge these words to be mocking His own word. That would be very sad for you, for I truly believe you love him. But if he so judges your work, you will suffer great loss.

    (By the way, very few of us think Obama is the Antichrist.)
    Also
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  18. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Isaiah 19:1-17 could happen shortly after the second coming, at the
    very start of the millennium, when Jesus is still rebuking nations and
    causing them to cease from war (Micah 4:3).

    ---

    There's no necessary connection whatsoever between Daniel 11:40
    and Isaiah 7:17-20.

    Isaiah 7:17-20 could have been fulfilled in 2 Chronicles 28:18-20.

    The swarm from "the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt" (Isaiah
    7:18) could be the swarm of Philistines which invaded Judah around
    the time of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria's invasion of Judah in the
    time of Ahaz (2 Chronicles 28:18-20), to whom the prophecy of
    Isaiah 7:17-20 was addressed (Isaiah 7:12).

    The "rivers of Egypt" (Isaiah 7:18) could be wadis at the south end
    of the land of Israel and Philistia (cf. Joshua 15:4,47, Numbers 34:5),
    forming the border between Israel/Philistia and Egypt.

    ---

    The hypocritical nation of Isaiah 10:6 could be Judah at the time of
    Sennacherib's invasion (Isaiah 36:1).

    2 Kings 18:6 refers only to Hezekiah remaining righteous, not the
    nation of Judah.

    2 Chronicles 30:12 refers to Judah being righteous only at one point
    in the first year of Hezekiah's reign (2 Chronicles 29:3), not
    fourteen years later when Sennacherib invaded (Isaiah 36:1).

    ---

    The whole work of Isaiah 10:12 could simply be the whole work which
    God wanted to work in Jerusalem through Sennacherib's invasion of
    Judah.

    ---

    Isaiah 10:20-21 could refer to the remnant in the time of Sennacherib's
    invasion of Judah (Isaiah 37:31-32).

    ---

    Isaiah 10:25 could simply be the indignation which God worked during
    Sennacherib's invasion of Judah.

    ---

    No scripture or other history ever says or requires that Sennacherib
    never came to Jerusalem.

    Isaiah 10:28-32 could refer to a path which Sennacherib took down
    the ridge into Judah with an expeditionary force to reconnoiter
    Jerusalem, while the bulk of his forces went down the coast. He
    could have seen that his expeditionary force was too meager to
    broach Jerusalem's formidable defenses, and so only shook his fist at
    Jerusalem (Isaiah 10:32) before returning to the bulk of his forces,
    which by that time could have reached Lachish.

    While besieging Lachish, he could have then sent some forces back
    to Jerusalem to try to talk it into submission (2 Chronicles 32:9-15),
    employing the boasting (2 Kings 18:34-35) foretold in Isaiah 10:9-11.

    ---

    Nothing requires that Isaiah 14:29 is referring to events subsequent
    to Isaiah 14:25.

    Isaiah 14:29 could begin a separate prophecy at the time of Ahaz's
    death (Isaiah 14:28), referring to the death of Tiglath-Pileser III,
    who had invaded Judah, and no doubt Philistia as well, in the time of
    Ahaz (2 Chronicles 28:19-22).

    In Isaiah 14:29, the second, subsequent invader of Philistia could be
    Sennacherib, the ultimate destruction of whose invading forces could
    have been referred to back in Isaiah 14:25, not to mention back in
    Isaiah 10:16-19,26,33 (cf. Isaiah 37:36-37).

    ---

    Nothing requires that the Assyrian in Isaiah 30:31 isn't the Antichrist.

    Isaiah 30:30-33 could refer to the defeat of the Antichrist and his
    being cast into the lake of fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ
    (Revelation 19:20).

    ---

    Obama isn't the Antichrist, because the gematrial number of his name
    isn't 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18), and because he isn't from a country
    the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian
    Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander
    (Daniel 8:8-9, 21-25).
     
  19. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    and what about the gematrial number of the meanings of his first, middle, and last name?... those do add up to 666...
     
  20. Gary777

    Gary777 Gary777

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    Glad you see that as a proof! Since we also know that NO names written with english letters have, or can have, a Gematrian value unless you purposely construct one, then we can conclude that the anticrist is not any American! Its not even von Habsburg or prince Charles (as some europen christians firmly belives), since their names dont have a gematrian value either.
    It really restricts the whole 666 to a greek or hebrew name, possibly a latin name , doesn't it?
     
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