Isaiah 58:13,14

[BrightCandle]

flesh99:

The NASB and the ESV are the two most literal translations available today, and here is how they translate Heb. 4:9, "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God." (NASB), and "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

If you believe that the moral law is not binding then, then by default you cannot sin, because sin is the transgression of the law!

Paul says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine and reproof. Paul did not say only his writings are profitable for doctrine, yet that is what you base your conclusions on. Do Paul's writings "trump" the words of Jesus, when he said that the law would be standing till heaven and earth pass away?

flesh99, you say that Symes and myself have complicted reasons for our faith, when we are only presenting the Ten Commandments as they were written with the finger of God, how much simpler can you get? Your quotes used in responce to nullify the Ten Commandments are almost all taken from the writings of Paul, who Peter said had written things that are hard to understand. The Ten Commandments are easy to understand, the writings of Paul hard to understand, that is what has gotten you confused, flesh99. It is a whole lot easier to just ask the Lord to write his law on your heart than to argue for the nullifying of God's holy law.

Brooks

 

[Symes]

Brooks

Sounds good to me.

 

[Andre]

There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, yes sir there is a Sabbath rest waiting for us, no one alive entered this Sabbath yet, it's the final rest we will have in God for eternity, just like God worked for 6 days and rested from creation forever (did God start the process of creation again on the first day, no He rested once and for all), we will also rest forever, that is the true Sabbath.


If we are in Jesus we are not under the obligation to keep the Law, we must look to the Law and base our moral values in it, but we are not under it, and that is not limited to the Ten Commandmendts, the assumption that because it's written by the finger of God therefore it's forever is nothing but false doctrine, the whole Bible was written by the finger of God thru men, the whole Bible is the word of God Himself without the personal interpretation of the writers and the whole Bible is valid today. The whole Law is there to point us to Christ, to shine us with the light of God that reveals how sinfull we are and to show us that appart from Christ we can't make it.

 

[Symes]

If we are in Jesus we are not under the obligation to keep the Law, we must look to the Law and base our moral values in it, but we are not under it,

Andre

Are you saying we do not have to keep the law?

Or is the only law that you do not want to keep being the Sabbath commandment?

 

[BrightCandle]

Andre:

When you refuse to obey the law then you are "under it", if you choose to obey the law, by asking the Holy Spirit to write it on your heart, you are not sinning, therefore you are not "under the law", when you try to obey in your own strength, or you refuse to obey then you are "under the law".

Andre, why do you try ro "spiritualize" the most plain texts of Scripture away to make them of non effect? And try to rationalize them in a way to make it seem that they do not apply to us in our day? When you choose to worship on the Sabbath we experience the promise of rest physically, mentally, and spiritually. Why don't you give it a try? The Sabbath is kind of like the Bible, you must prayerfully read and study the Bible to experience its life changing power, so with the Sabbath, you must by faith, choose to worship on God's only holy day, and you will indeed experience the promised blessing.

Brooks

 

[Symes]

Andre

There has only ever been one day that God made holy, the seventh day.

No where in the New Testament did Jesus say the seventh day was not holy. It has only ever been the seventh day.

The first day was never made holy.

 

[Andre]

Andre:

When you refuse to obey the law then you are "under it", if you choose to obey the law, by asking the Holy Spirit to write it on your heart, you are not sinning, therefore you are not "under the law", when you try to obey in your own strength, or you refuse to obey then you are "under the law".

Andre, why do you try ro "spiritualize" the most plain texts of Scripture away to make them of non effect? And try to rationalize them in a way to make it seem that they do not apply to us in our day? When you choose to worship on the Sabbath we experience the promise of rest physically, mentally, and spiritually. Why don't you give it a try? The Sabbath is kind of like the Bible, you must prayerfully read and study the Bible to experience its life changing power, so with the Sabbath, you must by faith, choose to worship on God's only holy day, and you will indeed experience the promised blessing.

Brooks

I'm not trying to spiritualize anything, the Bible tells me that the Sabbath, just like the sacrifices, foods, and festivals were a shadow of things to come.
I'm only embracing the things that came (new covenant, rest in Christ, life under grace, forgivness thru His blood) I'm not beating my head over His shadows thinking I'm looking better in His sight because I'm still following His shadows.

When you refuse to obey the law then you are "under it", if you choose to obey the law, by asking the Holy Spirit to write it on your heart, you are not sinning, therefore you are not "under the law", when you try to obey in your own strength, or you refuse to obey then you are "under the law".

This is a false statement, the Isrealites were under the Law, and they were not refusing to follow it, Christians are not under the Law.

 

[Symes]

Andre

I'm not trying to spiritualize anything, the Bible tells me that the Sabbath, just like the sacrifices, foods, and festivals were a shadow of things to come.
I'm only embracing the things that came (new covenant, rest in Christ, life under grace, forgivness thru His blood) I'm not beating my head over His shadows thinking I'm looking better in His sight because I'm still following His shadows.

You seem to stuck on the false understanding that the Sabbath is a shadow when it is not at all. The weekly Sabbath was never a shadow. It has been there since Creation. It cannot be a shadow.

The ceremonial sabbaths were a shadow. They pointed forward to the cross. I have showed here where the Greek does not support such an understanding. I have got a full answer back from my Greek friend who is well on his way to an honours in Biblical Greek along with his teachers do not agree with your view at all.

Would you like me to post it here for you or email it to you. Maybe better to email it to you.

 

[BrightCandle]

Andre:

If you as a Christian refuse to obey God's Ten Commandments, then you are sinning, therefore you are under the condemnation of the law. When we offer willing obediance to God's Ten Commandments, and do our best with God's help to obey them, then any short comings in our efforts Jesus makes us for us with His perfect righteousness. What you are proposing leads to sinning under the cloak false sanctification, better known as "cheap grace".

Brooks

 

[Andre]

If I must follow any law in order to be saved then salvation is not thru faith but it's thru works and faith combined wich contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. Works come as a result of faith, not the other way around.

All Sabbath were a shadow, the cerimonial Sabbaths were nothing more than a Sabbath, the same rules applied to it, no work, no fire, no mixed fabrics, etc, they were Sabbath just like the weekly Sabbath and had the same value, if you didn't observe them you were under the same punishments, wich was death.

 

[Symes]

If I must follow any law in order to be saved then salvation is not thru faith but it's thru works and faith combined wich contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. Works come as a result of faith, not the other way around.

All Sabbath were a shadow, the cerimonial Sabbaths were nothing more than a Sabbath, the same rules applied to it, no work, no fire, no mixed fabrics, etc, they were Sabbath just like the weekly Sabbath and had the same value, if you didn't observe them you were under the same punishments, wich was death.

Andre

No one is saying you will be saved by keeping the law, ten commandments or otherwise.

If we know what is right and refuse to obey then that is a different matter.

"If ye love me keep my commandments"

I suppose one can go on and say if a person does not love God, then they will not keep his commandments.

The weekly Sabbath has been there since creation. You or anyone else cannot do away with it.

It was not a shadow. The ceremonial sabbaths were a shadow, they pointed forward to the cross. The weekly Sabbath did not. It was a memorial of Creation.

 

[Andre]

No Symes, the weekly Sabbath has not been there since creation, and I do keep the Ten Comandments, I just don't keep their shadows...
The Sabbath was never a memorial of creation, it was a memorial of the liberation from slavery in Egypt...

"You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day."

God created the world in 6 days and He rested from creation on the 7th day, but He didn't start working again on the eight day, He is still resting from creation.
God didn't rest from His works as God on the 7th day, if He had rested from from His "job" as God Satan would have destroyed creation in a heartbeat.

 

[Symes]

No Symes, the weekly Sabbath has not been there since creation, and I do keep the Ten Comandments, I just don't keep their shadows...
The Sabbath was never a memorial of creation, it was a memorial of the liberation from slavery in Egypt...

"You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day."

God created the world in 6 days and He rested from creation on the 7th day, but He didn't start working again on the eight day, He is still resting from creation.
God didn't rest from His works as God on the 7th day, if He had rested from from His "job" as God Satan would have destroyed creation in a heartbeat.

Andre

There is no Biblical support for such thinking. God rested from His work and gave Adam and Eve the Sabbath to rest. The Sabbath was not given to the Children of Israel for the first time after coming out of Egypt.

Where do you get the idea that Satan could have destroyed Creation because rested from His work? Never seen that idea in the Bible. Where is the verse to say that?

Read the story again in Gen. 2:1-3

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [1] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done." (NIV)

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all (1) their hosts.
2 By (2) the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and (3) He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." (NASB)

God finished His work. God rested and sanctified the seventh day as being holy. How many other days did God make holy or did God sanctify?

Ex. 20:8-11
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Look at verse 11 again, it says that the Lord made the heaven and earth in six days then rested on the seventh which is the Sabbath day and "hallowed it"

There is no mention of the Sabbath being a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt. The Passover was the memorial service for that not the Sabbath.

 

[Andre]

There is no mention of the Sabbath being a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt. The Passover was the memorial service for that not the Sabbath.

Deut 5

12 ' Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
13 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
15 ' You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

 

[Symes]

15 ' You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

In Egypt they were forced to work on the Sabbath, they had forgot and that is why God told them to "Remember"

The Sabbath was there since Creation and was only codified at Sinai, not oringinally given as you suggest.

Do you think that God would make the Sabbath at Creation and then keep it from his people for over 2,000 years? I doubt it very much.

 

[kel32]

We will all come before the judgement seat of God. We will be judged according to God's law. The ten commandments.

I've been following this thread for some time...

Symes, what is your interpretation of the word "law" in this passage from Romans?

"But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter."

~peace~

 

[Andre]

In Egypt they were forced to work on the Sabbath, they had forgot and that is why God told them to "Remember"

The Sabbath was there since Creation and was only codified at Sinai, not oringinally given as you suggest.

Do you think that God would make the Sabbath at Creation and then keep it from his people for over 2,000 years? I doubt it very much.

Don't you think that if they had forgotten it God would had made it clear that they forgot, but we have no mention that creation was ordained to keep the Sabbath untill the Law was given to them.

Where in the Bible does it say that Israel forgot that they had to keep the Sabbath? This is a fruit of your imagonation, or should I say EGW's imagination...

Why does Deuteronomy 5 says that this covenant was given to them at Horeb and was not given to their fathers?

 

[Andre]

Andre:

If you as a Christian refuse to obey God's Ten Commandments, then you are sinning, therefore you are under the condemnation of the law. When we offer willing obediance to God's Ten Commandments, and do our best with God's help to obey them, then any short comings in our efforts Jesus makes us for us with His perfect righteousness. What you are proposing leads to sinning under the cloak false sanctification, better known as "cheap grace".

Brooks

Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. For we also once were foolish ourselves disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

 

[Symes]

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

The Sabbath is not a foolish controversy. Certainly not when men claim to have made the change from Sabbath to Sunday.

At least the Catholic Church is honest enough to know that there is no Sunday commandment in the Bible.

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"

The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

"The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."

"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.

"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?

"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

"Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."

 

[Andre]

The Sabbath is not a foolish controversy. Certainly not when men claim to have made the change from Sabbath to Sunday.

It's a dispute about the Law, therefore it's unprofitable and worthless, just like Titus 3 says.

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.