Isaiah 53 prophecy. Is it about Jesus?

[Athée]

Hi all,

Your friendly local atheist back with another question. So chatting after hockey about life's big questions one of the guys said thst he was a Christian and when I asked what convinces him that Christianity is true his first thought was all the fulfilled prophecy. When I asked him for the very best one he cited Isaiah 53 (meaning the end of 52 through 53).

So I went back and read it myself and did a cursory internet search and it seems to me like the traditional Jewish interpretation makes the most sense, that the suffering servant is the nation of israel...but maybe I am missing something (I usually am!)

If you are a believer that this passage is a clear prophecy about Jesus as Messiah please help me understand why.

Peace

 

[Halbhh]

Well, verse 7 for instance cannot possibly fit the Israel as it is described so often in the old Testament when facing adversity and crying out for help from God. But verse 7 does very much describe Jesus when falsely accused before His crucifixion at key moments. He said very little to defend Himself in the most key moments, such as before Pilate.

 

[Halbhh]

Hi all,

Your friendly local atheist back with another question. So chatting after hockey about life's big questions one of the guys said thst he was a Christian and when I asked what convinces him that Christianity is true his first thought was all the fulfilled prophecy. When I asked him for the very best one he cited Isaiah 53 (meaning the end of 52 through 53).

So I went back and read it myself and did a cursory internet search and it seems to me like the traditional Jewish interpretation makes the most sense, that the suffering servant is the nation of israel...but maybe I am missing something (I usually am!)

If you are a believer that this passage is a clear prophecy about Jesus as Messiah please help me understand why.

Peace

Also, verse 9, again the same as 7 -- strongly clear it cannot fit Israel in the Old Testament, the nation often having too much wrongdoing against the innocent inside itself, it's suggested such as against even the orphans and widows and the oppressed servants (indentured). But this verse (53:9) powerfully and precisely fits Christ's death! Christ was crucified with 2 criminals, and then after dead placed in a rich man's tomb! He went to the cross because He never said less than the real truth, causing great anger from the religious leaders in power.

 

[miamited]

Hi athee,

That's the exact same question that the eunuch from Ethiopia asked Phillip. You can read his answer in the book of Acts 8:26-40.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Hi all,

Your friendly local atheist back with another question. So chatting after hockey about life's big questions one of the guys said thst he was a Christian and when I asked what convinces him that Christianity is true his first thought was all the fulfilled prophecy. When I asked him for the very best one he cited Isaiah 53 (meaning the end of 52 through 53).

So I went back and read it myself and did a cursory internet search and it seems to me like the traditional Jewish interpretation makes the most sense, that the suffering servant is the nation of israel...but maybe I am missing something (I usually am!)

If you are a believer that this passage is a clear prophecy about Jesus as Messiah please help me understand why.

Peace

And verse 11 -- that's sublime! So true of Christ, our Savior!

I had not remembered how perfectly these verses fit!

 

[miamited]

Hi again athee,

Even though you aren't asking the question here that you asked your christian acquaintance, my best old covenant prophecy of the Messiah, Jesus, is found in Daniel chapter 9:20-27. Daniel is even clearly told by the angel delivering the prophecy that it refers to the time of the Messiah.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Hi all,

Your friendly local atheist back with another question. So chatting after hockey about life's big questions one of the guys said thst he was a Christian and when I asked what convinces him that Christianity is true his first thought was all the fulfilled prophecy. When I asked him for the very best one he cited Isaiah 53 (meaning the end of 52 through 53).

So I went back and read it myself and did a cursory internet search and it seems to me like the traditional Jewish interpretation makes the most sense, that the suffering servant is the nation of israel...but maybe I am missing something (I usually am!)

If you are a believer that this passage is a clear prophecy about Jesus as Messiah please help me understand why.

Peace

And verse 12! The key part of His redemption of us on the cross --

"...because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."

 

[hedrick]

As with a lot of questions, the answer is yes and no.

I agree that Is 53 was about something at the time the prophet wrote.

However to understand the Christian handling of it you need to realize that Jews saw the OT as a pattern of how God works. They would see current actions as following the OT pattern. So John the Baptist was Elijah, etc. It’s easy to see why Christians would understand Jesus as fulfilling that prophecy. That doesn’t mean that it didn’t have a contemporary reference.

This is sometimes called double fulfillment. Critical scholars tend to see things this way, because a lot of developments in 20th Cent Biblical studies are based on better understanding of Jewish approaches to Scripture. But many conservative scholars accept the principle as well. There is, however, another strain of traditional Christianity that wants to see the NT "proven" by the fact that it fulfills a million OT prophecies. Any hint that 1st Cent Christians may have started with events and used the OT to understand them tends to undermine that. So the approach is not accepted by all traditional interpreters.

One might even say that while then original prophet probably only intended the contemporary reference, God in his providence intended the application to Jesus.

There are, of course, some OT prophecies that genuinely are about the future, those talking about the Messiah and the future when all nations would worship the Lord at Jerusalem. I think Jesus saw himself as the Messiah, although not everything said about the Messiah happened during his life.

 

[Halbhh]

As with a lot of questions, the answer is yes and no.

I agree that Is 53 was about something at the time the prophet wrote.

However to understand the Christian handling of it you need to realize that Jews saw the OT as a pattern of how God works. They would see current actions as following the OT pattern. So John the Baptist was Elijah, etc. It’s easy to see why Christians would understand Jesus as fulfilling that prophecy. That doesn’t mean that it didn’t have a contemporary reference.

This is sometimes called double fulfillment. Critical scholars tend to see things this way, because a lot of developments in 20th Cent Biblical studies are based on better understanding of Jewish approaches to Scripture. But many conservative scholars accept the principle as well. There is, however, another strain of traditional Christianity that wants to see the NT "proven" by the fact that it fulfills a million OT prophecies. Any hint that 1st Cent Christians may have started with events and used the OT to understand them tends to undermine that. So the approach is not accepted by all traditional interpreters.

One might even say that while then original prophet probably only intended the contemporary reference, God in his providence intended the application to Jesus.

There are, of course, some OT prophecies that genuinely are about the future, those talking about the Messiah and the future when all nations would worship the Lord at Jerusalem. I think Jesus saw himself as the Messiah, although not everything said about the Messiah happened during his life.

Please see above post #2 and #3 about verses 7 and 9, and then after those verse 11 and 12 with such perfect fits to Christ.

 

[Halbhh]

Hi all,

Your friendly local atheist back with another question. So chatting after hockey about life's big questions one of the guys said thst he was a Christian and when I asked what convinces him that Christianity is true his first thought was all the fulfilled prophecy. When I asked him for the very best one he cited Isaiah 53 (meaning the end of 52 through 53).

So I went back and read it myself and did a cursory internet search and it seems to me like the traditional Jewish interpretation makes the most sense, that the suffering servant is the nation of israel...but maybe I am missing something (I usually am!)

If you are a believer that this passage is a clear prophecy about Jesus as Messiah please help me understand why.

Peace

Also, a near complete copy of Isaiah was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated to 100-200 years before Christ, which is quite a find!

 

[Athée]

Well, verse 7 for instance cannot possibly fit the Israel as it is described so often in the old Testament when facing adversity and crying out for help from God. But verse 7 does very much describe Jesus when falsely accused before His crucifixion at key moments. He said very little to defend Himself in the most key moments, such as before Pilate.

Verse 7 says he was silent, Jesus cries out in garden, speaks to Pilot and cries out any number of things on the cross. This doesn't seem to fit.

 

[Athée]

Also, verse 9, again the same as 7 -- strongly clear it cannot fit Israel in the Old Testament, the nation often having too much wrongdoing against the innocent inside itself, it's suggested such as against even the orphans and widows and the oppressed servants (indentured). But this verse (53:9) powerfully and precisely fits Christ's death! Christ was crucified with 2 criminals, and then after dead placed in a rich man's tomb! He went to the cross because He never said less than the real truth, causing great anger from the religious leaders in power.

I will grant you that you could read backwards into this verse the circumstances of Jesus' death. But there doesn't seem to be any clear reason to prefer that reading over the one thst sees the servant as Israel and this verse describes in metaphorical fashion how the nation's justified their treatment of Israel. Remember that at the time it was written it had a clear meaning for its audience and it could have had nothing to do with the circumstances of Jesus death hundreds of years later. There seems to be no reason to overthrow that initial reading.

 

[Athée]

And verse 11 -- that's sublime! So true of Christ, our Savior!

I had not remembered how perfectly these verses fit!

How does Jesus' knowledge justify anyone? Isn't justification through belief by faith, faith itself a gift? What does what Jesus knows have to do with any of this?
Seems like again this doesn't apply.

 

[Athée]

And verse 12! The key part of His redemption of us on the cross --

"...because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."

Why did you leave out the first half of the verse, was it because it doesn't fit the Jesus narrative? And again there seems no reason to overturn a conventional reading here, that the nation of Israel is suffering to redeem the world.

 

[Athée]

As with a lot of questions, the answer is yes and no.

I agree that Is 53 was about something at the time the prophet wrote.

However to understand the Christian handling of it you need to realize that Jews saw the OT as a pattern of how God works. They would see current actions as following the OT pattern. So John the Baptist was Elijah, etc. It’s easy to see why Christians would understand Jesus as fulfilling that prophecy. That doesn’t mean that it didn’t have a contemporary reference.

This is sometimes called double fulfillment. Critical scholars tend to see things this way, because a lot of developments in 20th Cent Biblical studies are based on better understanding of Jewish approaches to Scripture. But many conservative scholars accept the principle as well. There is, however, another strain of traditional Christianity that wants to see the NT "proven" by the fact that it fulfills a million OT prophecies. Any hint that 1st Cent Christians may have started with events and used the OT to understand them tends to undermine that. So the approach is not accepted by all traditional interpreters.

One might even say that while then original prophet probably only intended the contemporary reference, God in his providence intended the application to Jesus.

There are, of course, some OT prophecies that genuinely are about the future, those talking about the Messiah and the future when all nations would worship the Lord at Jerusalem. I think Jesus saw himself as the Messiah, although not everything said about the Messiah happened during his life.

It seems to me that prophecies in the OT are always meant as signs, and that they are clear and verifiable so that there can be no doubt about fulfillment. Isiah 53 does not seem to be one of these at all.

 

[Athée]

Please see above post #2 and #3 about verses 7 and 9, and then after those verse 11 and 12 with such perfect fits to Christ.

See my replies to same

 

[hedrick]

It seems to me that prophecies in the OT are always meant as signs, and that they are clear and verifiable so that there can be no doubt about fulfillment. Isiah 53 does not seem to be one of these at all.

I agree that this section of Isaiah is different than many of the prophets. As you say, many of them wrote in times of crisis, warning the nations leaders to change course. Given the political context of the time, the signs are usually clear.

But that's not the situation of Is 53, or at least I don't think it is. Don't read the chapter in isolation. Look at the whole section. That section of Isaiah seems to be part of a reflection on both the past and future of Israel, in light of the exile. If Is 53 is about Israel (not the only interpretation, I might note), it's part of trying to understand why Israel suffered, and where it is going.

It's interesting to think about what Jesus thought he was doing when he died. Assume that the NT account is right, and he knew what was likely to happen to him (which certainly seems reasonable), I've often wondered if he thought he was taking on the consequences of Israel's disobedience in the 1st Cent. In that case Is 53 might apply quite well to him, and he might even have used it to understand his role.

 

[Athée]

I agree that this section of Isaiah is different than many of the prophets. As you say, many of them wrote in times of crisis, warning the nations leaders to change course. Given the political context of the time, the signs are usually clear.

But that's not the situation of Is 53, or at least I don't think it is. Don't read the chapter in isolation. Look at the whole section. That section of Isaiah seems to be part of a reflection on both the past and future of Israel, in light of the exile. If Is 53 is about Israel (not the only interpretation, I might note), it's part of trying to understand why Israel suffered, and where it is going.

It's interesting to think about what Jesus thought he was doing when he died. Assume that the NT account is right, and he knew what was likely to happen to him (which certainly seems reasonable), I've often wondered if he thought he was taking on the consequences of Israel's disobedience in the 1st Cent. In that case Is 53 might apply quite well to him, and he might even have used it to understand his role.

Part of my difficulty is that this seems to be the art of 4 servant songs and the previous 3 also seem to be about Israel as a nation. It also seems odd that this one disputed and unclear passage is the only place in the OT where the idea that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of others can be said to appear. After all if Isaiah 53 was a clear messianic prophecy Peter would not have been surprised that Jesus (the one he identifies as Messiah) would suffer and die. He appeared to have no idea and he definitely would have known the passage in Isaiah.
As for how Jesus saw his mission I think you could be correct. I tend to seem him as a Jewish apocalyptic preacher so that would fit on my view.

 

[Halbhh]

Verse 7 says he was silent, Jesus cries out in garden, speaks to Pilot and cries out any number of things on the cross. This doesn't seem to fit.

Read and see.

Matthew chapter 26 v59 and onward like 26:62, 27:13,14...
Matthew 26 NIV

Still think so?

 

[Halbhh]

Why did you leave out the first half of the verse, was it because it doesn't fit the Jesus narrative? And again there seems no reason to overturn a conventional reading here, that the nation of Israel is suffering to redeem the world.

Let's look

Isaiah 53:11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Luke 22:37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."