• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Isaiah 53 mainly verse 5.

Discussion in 'Spirit-Filled / Charismatic' started by Atlantians, Jun 6, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. psalms 91

    psalms 91 Legend

    +12,067
    Word of Faith
    Private
    US-Democrat
    I have a statement and a conclusion that I would like some feedback on. Was Jesus not called the last Adam and did not the first Adam walk in perfectness and then lose it all to satan? If so would it not be in line with that thought to believe that Jesus paid the price for everything to bring us back to the original Adam and the original state according to our being able to walk in it from the point of salvation on? Is not mercy and grace the same? When we intentionally sin dont we willingly walk out from under Gods mercy and grace?
     
  2. lismore

    lismore Maranatha

    +2,564
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    Psalm 103

    2 Praise the LORD, O my soul,
    and forget not all his benefits-

    3 who forgives all your sins
    and heals all your diseases,
    4 who redeems your life from the pit
    and crowns you with love and compassion,
    5 who satisfies your desires with good things
    so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6 The LORD works righteousness
    and justice for all the oppressed.

    I wonder if the diseases and good things mentioned here mean only spiritual healing?

    Of course not. No More does isaiah 53:4 mean 'spiritual' healing only. Its physical. He forgives all my sins and heals all my diseases.

    :wave:
     
  3. Optimax

    Optimax Senior Veteran

    +441
    Word of Faith
    Married
    US-Republican
    Jesus Commanded His desciples to:

    Mt 10:8
    8 Heal the sick , cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
    KJV

    Before He "left" He commanded this.

    Mt 28:18-20
    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    KJV


    Verse 20 includes us as part of the "them". :)
     
  4. Atlantians

    Atlantians Student of Theology and History.

    +294
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Others
    sozo is greek my friend not hebrew.
    I am simply deducing the eaning from the verses clear context.

    That is Isaiah 53:4 I am taking issue with the false interpretation of Isaiah 53:5.
    Isaiah breaks into a new statement with but and in context is saying by his scourging and death we were forgiven and spiritual restored. Healed.
    Isaiah 53:4 is a prophesy of Jesus' ministry in healing the physical and mental needs of the world.
    The next verse prophesies the total spiritual restoration given to us by him by his death.

    We are talking about Hebrew, not English.

    We have been healed of the spiritual damage sin does to us.
    Forgiveness is spiritual restoration. Restoration is in essense healing.

    You were saying?

    Um, you must not have read my post because I made it very cl.ear that my only intention was to show that Isaiah 53:5 is solely speaking about spiritual restoration and that the verse is in no way talking about physical healing.
    I made a point to state that I am only arguing about the interpretation of this verse irregardless of the WOF, Charismatic, and Pentacostal views of healing.
    This post is only talking about the false interpretation of that verse stating that Jesus was beaten and died for physical healing. That is wrong and I was dividing the verse to uncover the truth.
    The verse is in evey way talking about spiritual restoration. Spiritual healing. Spiritual regeneration and in context has no relation to physical healing.

    I argue this irregardless of anyones view on healing itself. And I am not arguing against any view. Only against the false interpretation of that particular verse.
     
  5. lismore

    lismore Maranatha

    +2,564
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    Context. isaiah 53:5 runs on from 53:4. Your interpretation of 'by his wounds we were healed' being about a 'spiritual healing' only does not hold water. The 'but' links the two verses together, the infirmities with the piercing for our transgressions and merges them into 'by his wounds we were healed' for both threads.

    4 Surely he took up our infirmities
    and carried our sorrows,
    yet we considered him stricken by God,
    smitten by him, and afflicted.
    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.


    It mentions him taking our sicknesses, but nowhere does it mention 'spiritual healing only'.

    :scratch:
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    That's one of my favourite Psalms.

    In just three verses, you have forgiveness, health, protection, prosperity and long life.

    And if forgiveness is in the atonement , so are the rest! :clap:
     
  7. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

    +998
    Catholic
    Single
    Are sins healed or forgiven?

    this is an important issue raised in this thread and something I'd like to comment on.

    The common view of Jesus' attonement for our sins is that our sins were transgressions of law. We broke the law, and Jesus, in his sacrifice paid the penalty of our law breaking. In this sense sins are forgiven. The action that we took (or didn't take) is forgiven because Jesus paid the price for it.

    This is true, but it is not the whole truth. There is an element missing here that we need to bring back into our understanding. It has to do with what Bill brought up with Jesus beind the second (and last Adam) and what the effects of the first Adam were.
    You see sin is an action, but it is also a state of being brought upon us by Adam's transgression. Paul says in Romans 5 (if memory serves) that through Adam sin AND death entered, in Adam all men died, even those who did not sin in the same way he did. In otherwords, this is not just describing the personal guilt that comes from our own transgressions, but something that is above and beyond (or rather beneath and behind) our own sins.
    This state of being, is death.. it can not be forgiven, it can only be healed.

    Thus sins must be forgiven, but sin must also be healed.


    On the issue of healing in this thread, what I have to say may be more controversial, but I offer it up for your consideration.

    Man exists as a three fold being, just as God does (part of what it means to be made in his image and likeness). We are spirit, soul, and body. I am convinced from my reading of the new testament that the attonement and salvation affects each of those three areas of the human being. It does not affect them all, however, at the same time.

    Salvation in the bible is presented in three 'tenses' ie past, (you have been saved), present (you are being saved), and future (you will be saved). These three tenses, I firmly believe correspond to the three facets of the human being.

    spirit = past tense, when we were born again, it was our spirit that was born to new life, and our old dead spirit which was washed away. At this point the spirit is healed and saved.

    soul = present tense, as we walk with God through the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives, our soul is transformed. The soul is your will, your emotions, your mind, it remains sinful even after you are born again which is why there is a battle between your soul and your spirit to do what is right, or to do what you want. Paul referred to this as the war within his members. As we walk with the Holy Spirit, He transforms our soul, conforming it to the image of Christ. Through this process the soul is healed and saved.

    body = future tense, Paul is clear in Romans chapter 8 that our bodies remain corruptible and part of the fallen corruptible world until the resurrection. At the resurrection they will be raised incorruptible and glorified. Then they will be totally healed and saved.

    I do not mean that healing does not come before this time. Rather I mean that the promise of complete and total salvation and healing is not fulfilled until that time. God gives us the downpayments, but the promise is not fulfilled and not fully payed until that time.

    Until that time we are still susceptible to illness, to injury, all that might be called the perils of the fallen world. Neither our physical bodies, nor the creation itself experience the fullness of the promise until we are raised incorruptible with Christ.

    God does heal. "if any among you are ill let them go to the elders and the elders annoint them with oil and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick." but until the promise is fully realized, our bodies are still corruptible and subject to infirmities (which means just as much injury and temptations etc as it does illnesses).
     
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom


    Again, the sinful state/condition of man (thanks to Adam) is not "healed". Like I said, that's like broken English, a misue of the word. I say this because you'll never find our sinful state or sins (actions) "healed" in the Scriptures.

    Our sinful state/condition received "justification". We were made righteous:

    Romans 5:12-19
    Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned -- 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

    18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
    NKJV

    I don't see any "healing" here.

    I have no disagreements with the rest of your post. I like your spirit (past), soul (present) and body (future) explanation.

    But the last part sounds a bit negative. While we may not have our incorruptible bodies yet, we can still walk in divine health all the days of our lives. It is very possible. We don't need to suffer the diseases of 'Egypt' (the world) the way people of the world do. We have been called out. We are in the world but not of it.
     
  9. Atlantians

    Atlantians Student of Theology and History.

    +294
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Others
    You are splitting hairs Andrew.
    Healing is certainly not just physical.
    Healing is regeneration. Rstoration. That is what salvation is. A continuing restoration of our spirits. Thus it is a form of healing. So "spiritual healing".
     
  10. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

    +998
    Catholic
    Single
    Andrew, the disagreement I have there is that I believe passing from death to life is an act of healing. I'm not denying that we were justified, or our sins forgiven. I just believe that whereas death reigned through Adam, so life reigns through Christ.. I think that is an act of healing.
     
  11. Atlantians

    Atlantians Student of Theology and History.

    +294
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Others
    Well all the other statements in verse five are talking about the spiritual problems we have. So I conclude that the form of healing talked about is spiritual is nature.
    They certainly flow together but and by his wounds we are healed is not a wrap up statement. It is the continuation of the immediate thought at hand which was spiritual restoration.
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Why couldn't Isa be talking about both? First the sicknesses then the spirtual (sins)?

    Afterall, Jesus often forgave sins as well as healed at the same time during his earthly walk -- the double cure.

    Again, Matthew would not have quoted Isa 53:4 in the context of physical healing if in the first place, Isa 53:4 isn't even about physical healing. That would contradict the law of first mention in Bible Hermeneutics.
    Also, any lexicon will tell you that peace (the chatisement for our peace) includes health. This precede "by His stripes we are healed."
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    BTW, there is a very easy and logical way to prove that healing is in the redemptive work of Christ.

    1. The curse of the law includes EVERY type of sickness:

    Deuteronomy 28:61-62
    61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.

    2. We are redeemed from the curse of the law.

    Galatians 3:13
    13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),

    3. So if we are redeemed from the curse of the law which includes every type of sickness, then we are redeemed from sickness.:clap:
     
  14. lismore

    lismore Maranatha

    +2,564
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    Isaiah links verse 4 with verse 5 with a 'but'. How on earth can 'surely he carried our infirmities' be meaning sin or spiritual healing only? Thats he was pierced for our trangressions. Its clearly talking about BOTH forgiveness and physical healing~ by his wounds we were healed~ transgressions AND infirmities. Even an elementary reading of the passage shows its talking about sin and physical healing:scratch:. matthew in his gospel even links Isaiah 53:4 to phyiscal healing!

    Matthew 8:

    16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
    "He took up our infirmities
    and carried our diseases."
     
  15. JimB

    JimB Legend

    +1,535
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    But there’s another way to look at that ‘but’, Lis [​IMG]. You see the word as a conjunction linking Isaiah 53.5 to vs. 4 and I see it as a contrasting conjunction , a distinction, between the two. Here is the verse in the Amplified Version.
    Isaiah 53. 4 Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy].
    5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.

    According to the American Heritage Dictionary the conjunction“but” means “on the contrary; contrary to expectation; yet; an exception; except” (reference HERE).

    So, what Isaiah may very well mean (and IMO clearly means) is that while Jesus during His earthly ministry bore away/carried away the sicknesses of those to whom He ministered and thereby established His Messiahship (v.4), BUT the principal reason He came was to (v.5) heal our transgressions, guilt, and iniquities and bring us peace. For that principal purpose, His stripes heals us. Thus, as David prayed, God through Christ has “healed our soul” (Psalm 41.4).

    That Isaiah used the word “healing” exclusively in a spiritual sense is undeniable (see below).

    Sincerely,
    ~Neil Down



    How Isaiah used of the word “heal”

    Isaiah 6:10
    “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”
    Isaiah 6:9-11 (in Context) Isaiah 6 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 19:22
    And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.
    Isaiah 19:21-23 (in Context) Isaiah 19 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 30:26
    Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, And the light of the sun will be sevenfold, As the light of seven days, In the day that the LORD binds up the bruise of His people And heals the stroke of their wound.
    Isaiah 30:25-27 (in Context) Isaiah 30 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 53:5
    But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
    Isaiah 53:4-6 (in Context) Isaiah 53 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 57:18
    I have seen his ways, and will heal him; I will also lead him, And restore comforts to him And to his mourners.
    Isaiah 57:17-19 (in Context) Isaiah 57 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 57:19
    “ I create the fruit of the lips: Peace, peace to him who is far off and to him who is near,” Says the LORD, “ And I will heal him.”
    Isaiah 57:18-20 (in Context) Isaiah 57 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 58:8
    Then your light shall break forth like the morning, Your healing shall spring forth speedily, And your righteousness shall go before you; The glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.
    Isaiah 58:7-9 (in Context) Isaiah 58 (Whole Chapter)

    Isaiah 61:1
    “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
    Isaiah 61:1-3 (in Context) Isaiah 61 (Whole Chapter)











    [​IMG]
     
  16. lismore

    lismore Maranatha

    +2,564
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    :wave:

    Some interesting ideas there Jim........................I'll think about them later.



    But, in links to the OP, Atlantis to say this passage refers only to spiritual healing is not true.
    :sorry:


    Isaiah 19:22 NIV
    The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

    Jim, I understand where you are coming from, that the WOF movement you think has been pushed too far, but dont you think you might be pushing too far in the opposite direction? Reactions do produce extreme views!

    It is undeniable that Isaiah uses 'heal' in relation to physical illnesses too. The Op by Atlantis denies this so I think it should be pointed out.

    God Bless

    :holy:
     
  17. JimB

    JimB Legend

    +1,535
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others

    I do not think, personally (IMO), that WOF’ers that post here at CF are representative of what mainline WOF pastors believes. I think I have seen some more centeredness (acceptance of others) in the presentation of Word of Faith doctrine among WOF pastors that I know (except for one). At least we can talk theology now where we could not just a few years ago (except for one). :)

    Unfortunately, I am not seeing the same thing among WOF’ers that post here and I do think that what we hear in this forum is an extreme form of WOF that I am not finding among those I fellowship with on a regular basis. My personal WOF-inclined friends do not agree with my views but they accept the fact that I have come to my beliefs as honestly as I believe they have come to theirs. And we mutually respect each other. I do not find that kind of mutual respect here.

    My doctrine is what I believe. I am not “pushing” my beliefs beyond what I see as the truth of scripture. I may come across a tad detestable to those who have taken WOF to extremes but extremists, by definition, are intolerant of anyone else’s beliefs. So I do not take it personally and, hopefully, do not react emotionally.

    As for the way I view the use of the verb “to heal” in the Book of Isaiah (v.19.22 included), I invite you to do your own objective study of the passages in context; then form your opinion. Simply to reject them without reading them is to reject the possibility that there could be another interpretation than the one you have been taught.

    You do make a good point about Isaiah 19.22 and I will think about it. Thinking ... thinking ... thinking ...... :sleep:

    (just kidding)

    Sincerely,
    ~Neil Down
     
  18. enoch son

    enoch son Guest

    +0
    God owes are body's nothing! They are cursed gen. 3-17. If it's was a body healing why did god put 7 ways under the new conv. for man to be healed? Didn't god think the cross was all that was needed? 1. Jesus name 2. the pray of a rightouness man 3. the elder's 4. gift of faith 5 gift of healing 6 the gift of miracles 7. the greatest one is God grace.
     
  19. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ citizen of the Kingdom Supporter

    +11,231
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Great Post!!:thumbsup: God didn't give us common sence (how some hate that term) for nothing. He said come let us reason together (God in the midst)
     
  20. enoch son

    enoch son Guest

    +0
    What the problem is that many believer stand it front of the cross and pray to it and hope something comes back. They have past through the cross into the heavenly realm! And God is in control. It's a form of withcraft to pray for god to change things and try to over ride His will base on His promises. When one prays from the otherside of the cross (the glory) one will pray the will of the Father by His spirit and nothing else. Through is used 80 x's in Pauls writting and Love is only used 71 x's do you think that there could be something to this view?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...