Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

[lasthero]

Atheists and flat earthers alike believe that circle only carries one application which is to describe a 2D flat shape.

Personally, I don’t care much either way, and I’m not aware of any atheist that really pays it much mind.

You’ve really gotta get over this atheist obsession. There’s not that many of us. We can’t be the source of all your problems.

 

[Speedwell]

Atheists and flat earthers alike believe that circle only carries one application which is to describe a 2D flat shape.

Most Christians don't care very much, either.

 

[Strathos]

I have to hand it to you, OP, you've certainly done a lot of research on this.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Most Christians don't care very much, either.

I think most Christians care about these matters if and when they are introduced to them. I think the common sense element carries great weight with most Christians. For if Isaiah 40:22 teaches flat earth than how can we trust prophecy? We simply can't. Prophecy is immediately reduced to human opinions and nothing more when flat earth is accepted. Thus the acceptance of flat earth teaches that the word of God is just the word of ancient men, preaching what they thought was true but well debunked by modern science.

But when we accept the realty that the Bible teaches globe earth, as I have demonstrated here many times, we see how prophecy is infallible while modern science is fallible. For the Bible teaches globe earth long before the ancient Greeks first thought of it. Therefore Biblical prophecy is not the word of ancient superstition but the word of God. Modern science did not start as a war against God. It began as a direct product of Biblical theology and centuries of Christian morality which lead to the discipline of modern science. It wasn't until the Darwinian synthesis that modern science would be hijacked by the sensationalism of evolution theory.

I just bought the "American Dictionary of the English Language (1828 Facsimile Edition)." The word evolution existed but the theory of evolution didn't exist yet. You will find no Darwinism in that dictionary since all that came later in that century. There was a thriving civilization before Darwinism. People tend to forget that it was Christians who established modern science. There were no atheists present when Christians ushered in the era of modern science. Education was thriving in early America...no thanks to atheism. Noah Webster made America #1 in the world in education. Atheism under John Dewey brought American education down to the pits of destruction. I no longer even consider America an educated nation. The only thing being taught in Colleges these days is radical Socialism, moral relativism, and the occult. I have no respect for today's American academia.

 

[lasthero]

For the Bible teaches globe earth long before the ancient Greeks first thought of it.

Saying this over and over doesn’t make it any less false.

 

[Rubiks]

Ancient Hebrews had primitive cosmological beliefs. The purpose of the Bible isn't to tell us about Science. The vast majority of Christian scholars reject the idea that the Bible is the verbatim words of the mind of God, so this isn't a problem.

The primary meaning of the word in Isaiah 40 is circle. It comes from a verb mean to go around it a circle. While that definition may include a sphere (Biblical Hebrew is not a technical language like modern English), the primary definition is still "circle."

The only translation on BibleHub to translate Isaiah 40:22 like OP states is the no-name Douay-Rheims translation.

 

[Speedwell]

I think most Christians care about these matters if and when they are introduced to them. I think the common sense element carries great weight with most Christians. For if Isaiah 40:22 teaches flat earth than how can we trust prophecy? We simply can't. Prophecy is immediately reduced to human opinions and nothing more when flat earth is accepted. Thus the acceptance of flat earth teaches that the word of God is just the word of ancient men, preaching what they thought was true but well debunked by modern science.

You seem to be under the impression that the Bible must either teach a flat Earth or a spherical Earth. In fact, the Bible teaches neither one. The Bible teaches important things about our relationship with God and our salvation in Christ.

But when we accept the realty that the Bible teaches globe earth, as I have demonstrated here many times, we see how prophecy is infallible while modern science is fallible. For the Bible teaches globe earth long before the ancient Greeks first thought of it. Therefore Biblical prophecy is not the word of ancient superstition but the word of God. Modern science did not start as a war against God. It began as a direct product of Biblical theology and centuries of Christian morality which lead to the discipline of modern science. It wasn't until the Darwinian synthesis that modern science would be hijacked by the sensationalism of evolution theory.

Science is not at war with God.

I just bought the "American Dictionary of the English Language (1828 Facsimile Edition)." The word evolution existed but the theory of evolution didn't exist yet. You will find no Darwinism in that dictionary since all that came later in that century. There was a thriving civilization before Darwinism. People tend to forget that it was Christians who established modern science. There were no atheists present when Christians ushered in the era of modern science. Education was thriving in early America...no thanks to atheism. Noah Webster made America #1 in the world in education. Atheism under John Dewey brought American education down to the pits of destruction. I no longer even consider America an educated nation. The only thing being taught in Colleges these days is radical Socialism, moral relativism, and the occult. I have no respect for today's American academia.

Nor does he theory of evolution deny the existence of God.

 

[T. Taylor]

The church fathers were not influenced by paganism.

From Hippolytus, The Refutation of All Heresies:

"We propose to furnish an account of the tenets of natural philosophers, and who these are, as well as the tenets of moral philosophers, and who these are; and thirdly, the tenets of logicians, and who these logicians are. Among natural philosophers may be enumerated Thales, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Anaximenes, Anaxagoras, Archelaus, Parmenides, Leucippus, Democritus, Xenophanes, Ecphantus, Hippo. Among moral philosophers are Socrates, pupil of Archelaus the physicist, (and) Plato the pupil of Socrates. This (speculator) combined three systems of philosophy. Among logicians is Aristotle, pupil of Plato. He systematized the art of dialectics. Among the Stoic (logicians) were Chrysippus (and) Zeno. Epicurus, however, advanced an opinion almost contrary to all philosophers. Pyrrho was an Academic; this (speculator) taught the incomprehensibility of everything. The Brahmins among the Indians, and the Druids among the Celts, and Hesiod (devoted themselves to philosophic pursuits).


The Proœmium.—Motives for Undertaking the Refutation; Exposure of the Ancient Mysteries; Plan of the Work; Completeness of the Refutation; Value of the Treatise to Future Ages.

We must not overlook any figment devised by those denominated philosophers among the Greeks. For even their incoherent tenets must be received as worthy of credit, on account of the excessive madness of the heretics; who, from the observance of silence, and from concealing their own ineffable mysteries, have by many been supposed worshippers of God. We have likewise, on a former occasion, expounded the doctrines of these briefly, not illustrating them with any degree of minuteness, but refuting them in coarse digest; not having considered it requisite to bring to light their secret doctrines, in order that, when we have explained their tenets by enigmas, they, becoming ashamed, lest also, by our divulging their mysteries, we should convict them of atheism, might be induced to desist in some degree from their unreasonable opinion and their profane attempt. But since I perceive that they have not been abashed by our forbearance, and have made no account of how God is long-suffering, though blasphemed by them, in order that either from shame they may repent, or should they persevere, be justly condemned, I am forced to proceed in my intention of exposing those secret mysteries of theirs, which, to the initiated, with a vast amount of plausibility they deliver who are not accustomed first to disclose (to any one), till, by keeping such in suspense during a period (of necessary preparation), and by rendering him blasphemous towards the true God they have acquired complete ascendancy over him, and perceive him eagerly panting after the promised disclosure.

…

In order, then, as we have already stated, that we may prove them atheists, both in opinion and their mode (of treating a question) and in fact, and (in order to show) whence it is that their attempted theories have accrued unto them, and that they have endeavoured to establish their tenets, taking nothing from the holy Scriptures—nor is it from preserving the succession of any saint that they have hurried headlong into these opinions;—but that their doctrines have derived their origin from the wisdom of the Greeks, from the conclusions of those who have formed systems of philosophy, and from would-be mysteries, and the vagaries of astrologers,—it seems, then, advisable, in the first instance, by explaining the opinions advanced by the philosophers of the Greeks, to satisfy our readers that such are of greater antiquity than these (heresies), and more deserving of reverence in reference to their views respecting the divinity; in the next place, to compare each heresy with the system of each speculator, so as to show that the earliest champion of the heresy availing himself of these attempted theories, has turned them to advantage by appropriating their principles, and, impelled from these into worse, has constructed his own doctrine. The undertaking admittedly is full of labour, and (is one) requiring extended research. We shall not, however, be wanting in exertion; for afterwards it will be a source of joy, just like an athlete obtaining with much toil the crown, or a merchant after a huge swell of sea compassing gain, or a husbandman after sweat of brow enjoying the fruits, or a prophet after reproaches and insults seeing his predictions turning out true. In the commencement, therefore, we shall declare who first, among the Greeks, pointed out (the principles of) natural philosophy. For from these especially have they furtively taken their views who have first propounded these heresies, as we shall subsequently prove when we come to compare them one with another. Assigning to each of those who take the lead among philosophers their own peculiar tenets, we shall publicly exhibit these heresiarchs as naked and unseemly."
(Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, HIPPOLYTUS, The Refutation of All Heresies, p. 12-16)


Among the pagan tenets that Hippolytus deemed as heresies theese are two examples:


"Anaximander, then, was the hearer of Thales… This person declared the Infinite to be an originating principle and element of existing things, being the first to employ such a denomination of the originating principle. But, moreover, he asserted that there is an eternal motion, by the agency of which it happens that the heavens are generated; but that the earth is poised aloft, upheld by nothing, continuing (so) on account of its equal distance from all (the heavenly bodies); and that the figure of it is curved, circular, similar to a column of stone. And one of the surfaces we tread upon, but the other is opposite."
(Book I, Chapter V, p. 22)


One Ecphantus, a native of Syracuse, affirmed that it is not possible to attain a true knowledge of things. He defines, however, as he thinks, primary bodies to be indivisible, 103(Some confusion has crept into the text. The first clause of the second sentence belongs probably to the first. The sense would then run thus: “Ecphantus affirmed the impossibility of dogmatic truth, for that every one was permitted to frame definitions as he thought proper.”) and that there are three variations of these, viz., bulk, figure, capacity, from which are generated the objects of sense. But that there is a determinable multitude of these, and that this is infinite. And that bodies are moved neither by weight nor by impact, but by divine power, which he calls mind and soul; and that of this the world is a representation; wherefore also it has been made in the form of a sphere by divine power. And that the earth in the middle of the cosmical system is moved round its own centre towards the east."
(Book I, Chapter XIII, p. 29)

[emphasis added by me]

 

[FEZZILLA]

From Hippolytus, The Refutation of All Heresies:

"We propose to furnish an account of the tenets of natural philosophers, and who these are, as well as the tenets of moral philosophers, and who these are; and thirdly, the tenets of logicians, and who these logicians are. Among natural philosophers may be enumerated Thales, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Anaximenes, Anaxagoras, Archelaus, Parmenides, Leucippus, Democritus, Xenophanes, Ecphantus, Hippo. Among moral philosophers are Socrates, pupil of Archelaus the physicist, (and) Plato the pupil of Socrates. This (speculator) combined three systems of philosophy. Among logicians is Aristotle, pupil of Plato. He systematized the art of dialectics. Among the Stoic (logicians) were Chrysippus (and) Zeno. Epicurus, however, advanced an opinion almost contrary to all philosophers. Pyrrho was an Academic; this (speculator) taught the incomprehensibility of everything. The Brahmins among the Indians, and the Druids among the Celts, and Hesiod (devoted themselves to philosophic pursuits).


The Proœmium.—Motives for Undertaking the Refutation; Exposure of the Ancient Mysteries; Plan of the Work; Completeness of the Refutation; Value of the Treatise to Future Ages.

We must not overlook any figment devised by those denominated philosophers among the Greeks. For even their incoherent tenets must be received as worthy of credit, on account of the excessive madness of the heretics; who, from the observance of silence, and from concealing their own ineffable mysteries, have by many been supposed worshippers of God. We have likewise, on a former occasion, expounded the doctrines of these briefly, not illustrating them with any degree of minuteness, but refuting them in coarse digest; not having considered it requisite to bring to light their secret doctrines, in order that, when we have explained their tenets by enigmas, they, becoming ashamed, lest also, by our divulging their mysteries, we should convict them of atheism, might be induced to desist in some degree from their unreasonable opinion and their profane attempt. But since I perceive that they have not been abashed by our forbearance, and have made no account of how God is long-suffering, though blasphemed by them, in order that either from shame they may repent, or should they persevere, be justly condemned, I am forced to proceed in my intention of exposing those secret mysteries of theirs, which, to the initiated, with a vast amount of plausibility they deliver who are not accustomed first to disclose (to any one), till, by keeping such in suspense during a period (of necessary preparation), and by rendering him blasphemous towards the true God they have acquired complete ascendancy over him, and perceive him eagerly panting after the promised disclosure.

…

In order, then, as we have already stated, that we may prove them atheists, both in opinion and their mode (of treating a question) and in fact, and (in order to show) whence it is that their attempted theories have accrued unto them, and that they have endeavoured to establish their tenets, taking nothing from the holy Scriptures—nor is it from preserving the succession of any saint that they have hurried headlong into these opinions;—but that their doctrines have derived their origin from the wisdom of the Greeks, from the conclusions of those who have formed systems of philosophy, and from would-be mysteries, and the vagaries of astrologers,—it seems, then, advisable, in the first instance, by explaining the opinions advanced by the philosophers of the Greeks, to satisfy our readers that such are of greater antiquity than these (heresies), and more deserving of reverence in reference to their views respecting the divinity; in the next place, to compare each heresy with the system of each speculator, so as to show that the earliest champion of the heresy availing himself of these attempted theories, has turned them to advantage by appropriating their principles, and, impelled from these into worse, has constructed his own doctrine. The undertaking admittedly is full of labour, and (is one) requiring extended research. We shall not, however, be wanting in exertion; for afterwards it will be a source of joy, just like an athlete obtaining with much toil the crown, or a merchant after a huge swell of sea compassing gain, or a husbandman after sweat of brow enjoying the fruits, or a prophet after reproaches and insults seeing his predictions turning out true. In the commencement, therefore, we shall declare who first, among the Greeks, pointed out (the principles of) natural philosophy. For from these especially have they furtively taken their views who have first propounded these heresies, as we shall subsequently prove when we come to compare them one with another. Assigning to each of those who take the lead among philosophers their own peculiar tenets, we shall publicly exhibit these heresiarchs as naked and unseemly."
(Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, HIPPOLYTUS, The Refutation of All Heresies, p. 12-16)


Among the pagan tenets that Hippolytus deemed as heresies theese are two examples:


"Anaximander, then, was the hearer of Thales… This person declared the Infinite to be an originating principle and element of existing things, being the first to employ such a denomination of the originating principle. But, moreover, he asserted that there is an eternal motion, by the agency of which it happens that the heavens are generated; but that the earth is poised aloft, upheld by nothing, continuing (so) on account of its equal distance from all (the heavenly bodies); and that the figure of it is curved, circular, similar to a column of stone. And one of the surfaces we tread upon, but the other is opposite."
(Book I, Chapter V, p. 22)


One Ecphantus, a native of Syracuse, affirmed that it is not possible to attain a true knowledge of things. He defines, however, as he thinks, primary bodies to be indivisible, 103(Some confusion has crept into the text. The first clause of the second sentence belongs probably to the first. The sense would then run thus: “Ecphantus affirmed the impossibility of dogmatic truth, for that every one was permitted to frame definitions as he thought proper.”) and that there are three variations of these, viz., bulk, figure, capacity, from which are generated the objects of sense. But that there is a determinable multitude of these, and that this is infinite. And that bodies are moved neither by weight nor by impact, but by divine power, which he calls mind and soul; and that of this the world is a representation; wherefore also it has been made in the form of a sphere by divine power. And that the earth in the middle of the cosmical system is moved round its own centre towards the east."
(Book I, Chapter XIII, p. 29)

[emphasis added by me]

This is a very unclear and obscure post. For one thing, if indeed these quotes mean what you want them to mean, then Hippolytus disagrees with the Apostles which in turn would make him a complete heretic. You can find quotes from church fathers but they still have to agree with the clear teachings of the Apostles.

Here are clear Apostolic teachings:


2 Thessalonians 2:15,

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Following Apostolic tradition was upheld by the Apostles.

Philippians 4:3,

"I ask you also, true companion, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

This is referring to Clement of Rome who was consecrated by the Apostle Peter and mentioned most favorably by the Apostle Paul "whose names are written in the Book of Life." Clement of Rome is the earliest writing from any of the church fathers, who's Epistle is written only 2 years after the Apostle John penned Revelation. Clement read rotating globe in the Bible.

Philippians 4:8,

"Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

Forgive for quoting from the NIV as it is no longer considered a Holy Bible. But back when the NIV was a Holy Bible--the 1984 edition--it was the Bible I read. I like the way this verse is worded in the NIV better than all other translations. They all say the same thing but the wording and grammar here is as smooth as butter.
Anyway, just because a pagan believed something doesn't mean the pagan is wrong. If a pagan believed the earth is a sphere and the Bible clearly agrees, then the pagan has said nothing wrong and committed no sin by saying something that is true.

Being a Christian doesn't mean conforming to Judaism either. We are gentiles and all gentiles were pagans before coming to Christ.

Job 26:7,

I studied this verse well in Hebrew...well enough to know the best Hebrew-to-English rendering of the verse. The best rendering comes from one of the worst translations of the Bible. But give credit where credit is due, as the saying goes.

"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all."

That quote comes from the NAB (New American Bible: St.Joseph's Edition) and is not an English translation I recommend. However, as I said before, I studied the Hebrew well and found that the NAB gave the perfect Hebrew-to-English rendering in this particular verse. The "...at all" at the end is standard Hebrew reading of the verse which so many English translations leave out.

Both Josephus and Clement of Rome make reference to Job 26:7,

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99)

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1., "Epistle To The Corinthians," 33:3).

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

 

[FEZZILLA]

Ancient Hebrews had primitive cosmological beliefs. The purpose of the Bible isn't to tell us about Science. The vast majority of Christian scholars reject the idea that the Bible is the verbatim words of the mind of God, so this isn't a problem.

The primary meaning of the word in Isaiah 40 is circle. It comes from a verb mean to go around it a circle. While that definition may include a sphere (Biblical Hebrew is not a technical language like modern English), the primary definition is still "circle."

The only translation on BibleHub to translate Isaiah 40:22 like OP states is the no-name Douay-Rheims translation.

The Douay-Rheims Bible is not a no name Bible for one. Secondly, circle means sphere/globe/orb in English. Here is a list of synonyms for sphere
I found great synonyms for "sphere" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Notice that circle is listed as applicable to sphere.

Most real Christian scholars teach that the Bible is the word of God. But liberal theology is atheism being taught as Scripture. All the ancient scholars taught that Scripture is the word of God. So whatever modern scholars disagree with the early church on this position are automatically proven false. Here's what St.Paul says about liberal scholars:


Galatians 1:6-10 New Matthew Bible (NMB),

"6 I marvel that you are so soon turned away from him who called you in the grace of Christ, to another gospel – 7 which is nothing other than that there are some who trouble you and intend to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 Nevertheless, even if we ourselves or an angel from heaven preach any gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you, hold him as accursed. 9 As I said before, so I say now again: if anyone preaches any other thing to you than that which you have received, hold him as accursed. 10 Do I preach man’s doctrine, or God’s? Or do I go about to please men? If I sought to please men, I would not be the servant of Christ."

 

[FEZZILLA]

Nor does he theory of evolution deny the existence of God.

Evolution theory teaches that finite nature made itself. Evolutionists have all denied the existence of the God of the Bible. Evolution theory is pantheism; the Bible is monotheism. The Bible teaches that God created everything, from the universe to our human selves. Evolution theory teaches that the universe along with all life is an accident of random chance.

Genesis 1:1,

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

 

[Astrophile]

For the Bible teaches globe earth long before the ancient Greeks first thought of it.

In fact this is incorrect. Isaiah 40:22 is part of Deutero-Isaiah, which was written during the period 550-539 BC - Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia . According to Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood, the Greek philosopher Pythagoras was already speculating about the possibility that the Earth was a sphere; since he lived from about 582 to 500 BC, he was a contemporary of Deutero-Isaiah. However, in my opinion this has no bearing on the interpretation of Isaiah 40:22.

 

[Strathos]

Evolution theory teaches that finite nature made itself.

No it doesn't. It just teaches that nature can adapt and doesn't need to be micromanaged all the time. It says nothing about where it all came from in the first place.

Evolutionists have all denied the existence of the God of the Bible.

Now this is just blatantly untrue.

Evolution theory is pantheism; the Bible is monotheism. The Bible teaches that God created everything, from the universe to our human selves. Evolution theory teaches that the universe along with all life is an accident of random chance.

Whatever definition of evolution you're using, it's not the one that biologists are familiar with.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Isaiah 40:22, KJV).

Circles can be flat :

And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel, 'An end! The end is coming on The Four Corners Of The Land.
• Ezekiel 7:2

And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From The Four Corners Of The Earth.
• Isaiah 11:12

After this I saw four angels standing At The Four Corners Of The Earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
• Revelation 7:1

and will come out to deceive the nations which are in The Four Corners Of The Earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
• Revelation 20:8

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Thus says the LORD: “Heaven Is My Throne, And THE EARTH Is My FOOTSTOOL; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?
• Isaiah 66:1

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Aurelius Ambrosius (Ambrose) the bishop of Milan. (337-397 A.D.)

"But they say that The Sun can be said to be alone, because there is no second sun. But the Sun himself has many things in common with the stars, For He Travels Across The Heavens, he is of that ethereal and heavenly substance, he is a creature, and is reckoned amongst all the works of God. He serves God in union with all, blesses Him with all, praises Him with all. Therefore he cannot accurately be said to be alone, for he is not set apart from the rest."

Exposition of the Christian Faith, Book 5, Chapter 2

CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition of the Christian Faith, Book V (Ambrose)



From This Site: Philip Stallings: The Biblical Flat Earth: Quotes Of The Early Church Fathers And Protestant Reformers

 

[T. Taylor]

But flat earthers don't understand analogies and take everything absolutely literally even though the its a very clear analogy.

"Flat earthers" do understand analogies (generalized like you did) and don't take everything absolutely literally, especially if it's a very clear analogy.

The Josephus quote is clear round earth but flat earthers try to forcefully turn it into a flat earth.

The Josephus quote is not clear round(globe) earth but globe earthers try to forcefully turn it into a globe earth.

The church fathers were not influenced by paganism.

Very Wrong. The "church fathers" were in fact influenced by paganism and human philoshophy.

One would have to from one of those very radical anti-Catholic denominations to believe that.

Wrong.

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

I don't see how you can read a globe earth out of this.

Here again, just as you read from Josephus, the earth is round.

Nope. I don't read that.

The last part "...and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” is a reference to Job 26:7.

Why would that be a reference to Job 26:7?
Why not reference to:
1Ch 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Job 38:4, Job 38:6, Pss 89:12, Pss 102:26, Pss 104:5, Prov 3:19, Isa 48:13, Isa 51:13, Isa 51:16, Jer 31:37, Jer 51:15, Mic 6:2, Zech 12:1,
Heb 1:10 for example?

Flat earthers believe the earth is held up by literal pillar not knowing that "pillars" is used to describe saints and angels in many passages.

Coorection: earth is held up by literal pillarS knowing that "pillars" is used to describe saints and angels in many passages.

If the context demands the literal, primary meaning I accept it, you don't.

6 He shakes the earth out of its place, and the pillars beneath it tremble. (Job 9:6 NAB)

NJB Job 38:6 What supports its pillars at their bases? Who laid its cornerstone (Job 38:6 NJB)
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid its cornerstone, (Job 38:6 NAB)
NIB Job 38:6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- (Job 38:6 NIB)

"For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he has set the world upon them. (1 Sam. 2:8 NAB) - [by the way how do you set up a whirling, rotating globe on pillars?]

Do these pillars (and pillars in many others verses) mean saints and angels and not the literal meaning? That would not be justifiable.

Does a flat earth now all the sudden rotate?

Nope.

It also seems clear that Clement is referring to Job 26:10 and Job 38:14.

Maybe.

The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. (Job 38:14 NIB)
-How is that possible for a globe?

“The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

Clement is speaking about antipodes which, in his time, was defined as people who lived on the other side of the earth, or who plant their footsteps opposite to ours.

We cannot state exclusively that he was talking about the antipodes.

Origen Explains Clement’s Comment:

“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

This is just Origens interpretation of what Clement said.

Who you gonna believe: 21th century liberal scholars or 1st a century church father appointed by the Apostle Peter?

Liberal scholars are not wrong on everything and a 1st century "church father" is not right on everything (although I don't believe that Clement thaught a globe earth, at least based upon his writings I cannot see that).

Answering your question: I gonna believe the Bible over anything.

Clearly the Apostles and earliest of church fathers knew what chuwg meant and how it would translate into other languages.

I agree that the Apostles and some of the earliest "church fathers" knew what chuwg meant and how it would translate into other languages. But some of the "church fathers" changed the meaning of it based on their worldview (boroowed from philoshophies).

It never translated as a flat earth to them so why would we consider the petty word definitions of 20th & 21st century liberal scholars whose only motive was to appease evolutionists?

Wrong in many ways.
"appease evolutionists"???wut

The Hebrew Scriptures are much older than Pythagoras.

Yes.

The verses in Job Clement is referring to are over a 1000 years older than Pythagoras. Even Isaiah 40:22 is 700 B.C. and Pythagoras is 500 B.C.

Probably yes.

So this claim that the early Christians borrowed from the Greeks is not true, especially in light of the fact that they refuted Greek pagan beliefs all the time.

It is very true.
Some christians did refute pagan beliefs but they didn't refute all of them.

But there is one thing you do get kinda right in your post: everybody--Jews, Greeks and Romans--knew the earth was a sphere/globe.

The jews and romans learned it from the greeks.

They only used words like dome as a human expression to capture the curvature of the earth.

Wrong.

But flat earthers are absolutely literal in all things,

Also wrong. Flat earthers are NOT ABSOLUTELY literal in all things.

so when Revelation speaks of a dragon it literally means a flying dragon to flat earthers. The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns will be literally believed to be just that.

I don/t know where did you get that but I highly doubt it.

When you hold ancient people down to the rigid English of the 21st century you lose the true meaning of what's being said entirely.

Agreed.

 

[T. Taylor]

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99)

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1., "Epistle To The Corinthians," 33:3).

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

I say it again. These two quotes about the world fit well into "biblical flat earth cosmology".

 

[T. Taylor]

This is a very unclear and obscure post.

The following quotes are from Lactantius on the false wisdom of philosophers (Ante Nicene Fathers, Vol. 7):

"Therefore, leaving the authors of this earthly philosophy, who bring forward nothing certain, let us approach the right path…"


"To understand that which is false is truly the part of wisdom, but of human wisdom. Beyond this step man cannot proceed, and thus many of the philosophers have taken away religious institutions, as I have pointed out; but to know the truth is the part of divine wisdom. But man by himself cannot attain to this knowledge, unless he is taught by God. Thus philosophers have reached the height of human wisdom, so as to understand that which is not; but they have failed in attaining the power of saying that which really is."


"…and we prove that you, O philosophers, are not only unlearned and impious, but also blind, foolish, and senseless, who have surpassed in shallowness the ignorance of the uneducated."


"Since it is supposed that the truth still lies hidden in obscurity—either through the error and ignorance of the common people, who are the slaves of various and foolish superstitions, or through the philosophers, who by the perverseness of their minds confuse rather than throw light upon it… the truth might at length come forth, and having dispelled and refuted public errors, and the errors of those who are considered wise, might introduce among the human race a brilliant light."


"For since all error arises either from false religion or from wisdom, in refuting error it is necessary to overthrow both. For inasmuch as it has been handed down to us in the sacred writings that the thoughts of philosophers are foolish, this very thing is to be proved by fact and by arguments, that no one, induced by the honourable name of wisdom, or deceived by the splendour of empty eloquence, may prefer to give credence to human rather than to divine things."


"Philosophy appears to consist of two subjects, knowledge and conjecture, and of nothing more. Knowledge cannot come from the understanding, nor be apprehended by thought; because to have knowledge in oneself as a peculiar property does not belong to man, but to God. But the nature of mortals does not receive knowledge, except that which comes from without… It remains that there is in philosophy conjecture only; for that from which knowledge is absent, is entirely occupied by conjecture. For every one conjectures that of which he is ignorant. But they who discuss natural subjects, conjecture that they are as they discuss them. Therefore they do not know the truth, because knowledge is concerned with that which is certain, conjecture with the uncertain. "


"I have taught, as far as my humble talents permitted, that the philosophers held a course widely deviating from the truth."


"There are innumerable sayings and doings of the philosophers, by which their foolishness may be shown. Therefore, since we are unable to enumerate them all, a few will be sufficient. It is enough that it is understood that the philosophers were neither teachers of justice, of which they were ignorant, nor of virtue, of which they falsely boast."

 

[T. Taylor]

This is a very unclear and obscure post. For one thing, if indeed these quotes mean what you want them to mean, then Hippolytus disagrees with the Apostles which in turn would make him a complete heretic. You can find quotes from church fathers but they still have to agree with the clear teachings of the Apostles.

Here are clear Apostolic teachings:


2 Thessalonians 2:15,

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Following Apostolic tradition was upheld by the Apostles.

Philippians 4:3,

"I ask you also, true companion, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

This is referring to Clement of Rome who was consecrated by the Apostle Peter and mentioned most favorably by the Apostle Paul "whose names are written in the Book of Life." Clement of Rome is the earliest writing from any of the church fathers, who's Epistle is written only 2 years after the Apostle John penned Revelation. Clement read rotating globe in the Bible.

Philippians 4:8,

"Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

Forgive for quoting from the NIV as it is no longer considered a Holy Bible. But back when the NIV was a Holy Bible--the 1984 edition--it was the Bible I read. I like the way this verse is worded in the NIV better than all other translations. They all say the same thing but the wording and grammar here is as smooth as butter.
Anyway, just because a pagan believed something doesn't mean the pagan is wrong. If a pagan believed the earth is a sphere and the Bible clearly agrees, then the pagan has said nothing wrong and committed no sin by saying something that is true.

Being a Christian doesn't mean conforming to Judaism either. We are gentiles and all gentiles were pagans before coming to Christ.

Job 26:7,

I studied this verse well in Hebrew...well enough to know the best Hebrew-to-English rendering of the verse. The best rendering comes from one of the worst translations of the Bible. But give credit where credit is due, as the saying goes.

"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all."

That quote comes from the NAB (New American Bible: St.Joseph's Edition) and is not an English translation I recommend. However, as I said before, I studied the Hebrew well and found that the NAB gave the perfect Hebrew-to-English rendering in this particular verse. The "...at all" at the end is standard Hebrew reading of the verse which so many English translations leave out.

Both Josephus and Clement of Rome make reference to Job 26:7,

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99)

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1., "Epistle To The Corinthians," 33:3).

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

From the apocryplal writings and qumran scrolls:


58. He hath shut the sea in the midst of the waters, and with his word hath he hanged the earth upon the waters. 59. He spreadeth out the heavens like a vault; upon the waters hath he founded it.

2 Esdras, 16



4 'O you that have made the earth, hear me, that have fixed the firmament by the word, and have made firm the height of the heaven by the spirit…

2 Baruch, 21


3 But also the heavens at that time were shaken from their place…

2 Baruch, 59



3. That hast raised up the heaven and founded the earth upon the waters, That hast fixed the great stones upon the abyss of water…

Joseph & Aseneth, 12



And these shall serve to lay the foundations of the heaven, And to strengthen the earth, And to renew all the luminaries which are in the firmament.

Jubilees, 19:25



And He thundered at them in [His] power, and all the foundations of the earth [tr]embled, [and the wa]ters burst forth from the abysses. All the windows of heaven opened, and all the abyss[es] overflowed [with] mighty waters. And the windows of heaven [emptied out] rain and He destroyed them by the Flood...

4Q370 (4Q185)


The foundations of the firmament scream at your judgement...

4Q418


From the Book of Enoch:


"1 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation 2 and the firm foundations of the earth. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four 3 winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven. 4 I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and 5 all the stars to their setting. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths 6 of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones, 7 three towards the east, and three towards the south. And as for those towards the east, was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone. 8 But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the 9,10 throne was of sapphire. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards 12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no 13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, 14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of 16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'"
Book of Enoch, Chapter 18

"1 And from thence I went to the ends of the earth and saw there great beasts, and each differed from the other; and (I saw) birds also differing in appearance and beauty and voice, the one differing from the other. And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven rests, and the portals of the heaven open. 2And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and 3 I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their 4 times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. He showed all things to me and wrote them down for me: also their names he wrote for me, and their laws and their companies."
Book of Enoch Chapter 33

11 And the other Angel spoke to me, the one who went with me and showed me what is secret; what is first and last in Heaven, in the heights, and under the dry ground, in the depths, and at the Ends of Heaven, and at the Foundations of Heaven, and in the Storehouses of the Winds.
Book of Enoch Chapter 60

17 And through it the earth was founded upon the water, and from the hidden recesses of the mountains come beautiful waters, from the creation of the world and for ever. 18 And through that oath the sea was created, and as its foundation, for the time of anger, he placed for it the sand, and it does not go beyond it, from the creation of the world and for ever. 19 And through that oath the deeps were made firm, and they stand and do not move from their place, from the creation of the world and for ever.20 And through that oath the Sun and the Moon complete their course and do not transgress their command, from the creation of the world and for ever. 21 And through that oath the stars complete their course, and he calls their names, and they answer him, from the creation of the world and for ever.
Book of Enoch Chapter 69

[emphasis added by me]