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Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by FEZZILLA, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    As I said before, circle does not mean sphere by any definition (that I know of) as you suggest.
    Yes, the Earth is circular as Isaiah says (and most translators correctly translated). He did not have in mind a sphere when he described the Earth because he knew better words to illustrate a sphere like 'dur' (meaning ball) but he used the word 'chug' (circle) instead.

    ...and whirl you around and around, and throw you like a ball into a wide land. (Isa. 22:18 ESV)

    According to you what is the face of the deep and how do you inscribe a sphere on it?

    "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep (Prov. 8:27 NAS)
     
  2. lasthero

    lasthero Newbie

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    Right after this, you go on to blame atheists for doing things without a single source or word, constructing an entire narrative out of whole cloth.

    That is some amazing hypocrisy.
     
  3. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Should Isaiah have chosen dur if he wanted to express globe?

    Hebrew is the context driven language. No Hebrew word is selected by the Prophet that does not fit the context. God's creation of earth is always in context with God's creation and dominion of earth.

    Here are all the verses in the Bible--all three of them--that use duwr.

    "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

    "And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

    "Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).

    Not one of these verses is in context with God's creation and dominion of earth which proves that duwr is not a viable option to use in Isaiah 40:22.


    Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

    "And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

    Here's how Jerome translated Isaiah 40:22,

    "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

    ✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg


    Phrase: Gyrus Terrarum, from H2329 חוּג chûwg & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

    Latin Definition of Gyrus
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8LLHPXbdpjRAEzqtSMjzMSIb53JnHDAQwf3X2I4wxMdJg


    Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...u4pQ9N2Nx7L8pW8taKQqcAZT3mMa984XnEMinxc3Li9yY


    The Latin Definition of circulus
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...830368afb4bac7f35986b499566e5e1c87f7fb1d.html


    English definitions of circle
    I found great synonyms for "circle" on the new Thesaurus.com!


    Hebrew Lexicons for H2329 חוּג Chuwg

    ✅The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

    "H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."

    ✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon,

    H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
    sphere-circle.png


    Romans 10:18 quotes part of Isaiah 40:41 and all of Psalm 19:4,

    "But I say, Have they not heard? Surely, in all the earth went out their sound, and their words to the end of the habitable globe" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    The first clause: ""But I say, Have they not heard?" alludes to Isaiah 40:21,

    "Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?"

    The second clause follows the first clause of Isaiah 40:21 but quotes from Psalm 19:4 instead of Isaiah 40:22. This is because the Apostle Paul wants to mention the earth and its inhabitants at the same time and he knows chuwg is not the right choice of words so he uses Psalm 19:4 which uses G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē which is the Greek equivalent to H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl which means "the habitable globe."

    In the Latin Vulgate both Psalms 19:4 and Romans 10:18 say orbis terrae (i.e., orbis terrarum).

    Psalm 19:4,

    "in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum."

    Romans 10:18,

    "sed dico numquid non audierunt et quidem in omnem terram exiit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum"

    Latin Definition of orbis terrae
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...BHxXju0e8Ldy0-4r-oXPL-4a9fyey5l77S-jGxpjd5lxg

    Latin Definition of orbis terrarum
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...epFVm3iLJKLMi7EbzroP83q-poYSFVR3HNBQZaNo16ZEs

    How to say "world globe" in Latin
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...QKuq-yfECAmJpecUS3HGkdd1VYvNa2DG-J4e41uedL-Ng

    So I fail to see where you make anything considered a valid point in light of the facts presented here.
    NT.png




     
  4. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    They did.
     
  5. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Lets have some fun with this one ;)


    Translating Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8; Matthew 4:8 -- Greek & Latin.

    These verses is the most unique out of all the Greek verses covered so far. In these verses there are two Greeks words that will bring out the globular meaning and G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē is not used in this verse! So how can there be a globular meaning without oikouménē? This gets real interesting real fast! And here is the fun part of this verse: there's not a single English translation supporting it!

    So allow me to make my case here for these three verses and you can decide whether my case is well made or presumptuous. Perhaps my case is set up to prove something simple and yet of great significance to this issue.
    _____________________________________________
    Revelation 13:8,

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (KJV).

    Revelation 17:8,

    "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (KJV).

    Both verses use the Greek words G1093 γῆ gē and G2889 κόσμος kósmos.
    Both verses here mention the earth and the foundation of the world. The earth is γῆ gē and the "of the world" in the KJV is κόσμος kósmos. Both verse contain "dwell on the earth." So these things you want to make a mental note of because they do matter and the do effect the meaning.
    _____________________________________________
    Greek

    Revelation 13:8,

    "και προσκυνησουσιν αυτω παντες οι κατοικουντες επι της γης ων ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα εν τη βιβλω της ζωης του αρνιου εσφαγμενου απο καταβολης κοσμου"

    Revelation 17:8,

    "θηριον ο ειδες ην και ουκ εστιν και μελλει αναβαινειν εκ της αβυσσου και εις απωλειαν υπαγειν και θαυμασονται οι κατοικουντες επι της γης ων ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα επι το βιβλιον της ζωης απο καταβολης κοσμου βλεποντες το θηριον ο τι ην και ουκ εστιν καιπερ εστιν"

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

    "γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."
    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G2889 κόσμος kósmos

    "κόσμος kósmos, kos'-mos; probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)):—adorning, world."
    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    The word kósmos is where we get the English word cosmos from. So right from the start flat earthers lose their position that the cosmos don't exist. But the broader question is what this has to do with the shape of the earth?

    The Thayer's Greek Lexicon provides a list which shows the various applications for the word kósmos as applied in the NT:

    "1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
    2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
    3. the world, the universe
    4. the circle of the earth, the earth
    5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
    6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
    7.world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
    A. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
    8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
    a. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
    b. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19"

    Number 4 is the "circle of the earth" and number 7 is "the whole circle of earthly goods" which deals with the global economy and all the riches of the earth.

    Both Rev.13:8, 17:8 are about the earth as gē makes the context very clear. Though it is a cosmic battle as well for earth. Both good and evil fight to either destroy souls or save them. Satan and his fallen angels seek to destroy the souls of all humanity and get humanity to destroy the whole of God's creation -- the earth.

    "The nations were angry,
    but Your wrath has come.
    The time has come
    for the dead to be judged
    and to give the reward
    to Your servants the prophets,
    to the saints, and to those who fear Your name,
    both small and great,
    and the time has come to destroy
    those who destroy the earth."
    ~ Rev.11:18


    So the battle for the earth and its human inhabitants is a cosmic battle. The word gē is "the earth" in Rev.11:18 which carries Strong's meaning "the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application)" as also applied to Rev.13:8 and 17:8. But my case here is still not complete.
    ______________________________________________
    Matthew 4:8 & Luke 4:5

    "Again, the devil takes him into a very high mount, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory" (Matt.4:8 - 1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    "And the devil, bringing him into a high mountain, shewed him all the kingdoms of the habitable globe in an instant of time" (Luke 4:5 - 1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    The only difference in these two verses is that Matthew applied the word G2889 κόσμος kósmos whereas Luke used G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. Both verses tell us the same account. So is this a case of hyperbole? I don't think so...not in this account. Luke 4:5 is a very clear globe earth verse. I think Matt.4:8 is using kósmos in the same manner Luke used oikouménē. For the battle of souls was then and is now a global battle.
    _____________________________________________
    † St.Jerome's Latin Vulgate:

    Rev.13:8,

    "et adorabunt eum omnes qui inhabitant terram quorum non sunt scripta nomina in libro vitae agni qui occisus est ab origine mundi"

    Rev.17:8,

    "bestiam quam vidisti fuit et non est et ascensura est de abysso et in interitum ibit et mirabuntur inhabitantes terram quorum non sunt scripta nomina in libro vitae a constitutione mundi videntes bestiam quia erat et non est"

    Matt.4:8,

    "iterum adsumit eum diabolus in montem excelsum valde et ostendit ei omnia regna mundi et gloriam eorum"

    The Latin word "mundi" is being translated from the Greek kósmos. Remember the list of applications for kósmos in the Greek lexicons.

    Latin Definition for Mundi
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...4e5c68bcecb3749647174e699cdb0300049eb043.html

    So mundi can be applied to mean: sphaera, planeta, globus, terra -- along with the inhabitants of earth and their kingdoms.

    And yet, as compelling as my case is so far, its still not
    complete. So here is where my closing arguments make my case for a globe earth meaning for kósmos/mundi

    Exhibit A,

    The famous portrait below is worth $100,000,000 dollars and is of Leonardo da Vinci’s ‘Salvator Mundi’. Notice the clear globe He's holding in His hand which is meant to capture the meaning of John 3:16, as Salvator Mundi means "Savior of the world." So its clear that mundi in Latin has a globular meaning.
    f18af55a01af97c189061a4d5f73c7f6.jpg

    Exhibit B,

    Andrea Previtali, Salvator Mundi (1519)

    The globe Jesus holds in His hand in this picture is also called globus cruciger (Latin for "cross-bearing orb").

    This Christian tradition of the globus cruciger first began in the 5th century A.D. Flat earthers claim Christians never taught globe earth during this time which is not true.
    salvator-mundi-andrea-previtali.jpg

    Exhibit C,

    Below are the two pictures of Archangel Mikhail holding the Globus cruciger: the left is from an icon made circa 8th century.

    There are numerous portraits of the Globus cruciger and some of these Globus cruciger portraits contain Salvator Mundi with Christ holding the globular earth in His hand.

    I think the shape of the earth as read in the Bible was so well understood by ancient Christians that even the word "world" meant globe. While the Old Testament is the first document containing the globular shape of the earth, by the 1st century A.D. the shape of the earth was so well established in Jewish, Greek, and Roman cultures that just saying the word "world" came with a knee-jerk reactionary meaning of globe. Flat earthers analyze strictly from a 21st century liberal perspective and discard all ancient history that disagrees with their very misguided assumptions.

    So when Rev.13:8 or 17:8 mention the world (as in the whole world) it always means globe/sphere/orb. It never refers to the flat earth because there is no flat earth doctrine in the Bible and no flat earth tradition.
    33075726224_538df593d4_b.jpg

    Exhibit D and final argument:

    And my last piece of evidence comes from an atheist website which speaks indirectly about the map I posted, as monde is French for mundi. In French, monde is defined as an orb! I normally do not refer to atheist websites unless I seek to embarrass them. When it comes to wikipedia and all their flat earth claims on the Bible, I like to point out that they proved Rev.13:8; 17:8, and Matt.4:8 teach that the earth is an orb/globe.

    Don't forget to click on the Globus cruciger link under "See also."
    Monde - Wikipedia

    Here is another wiki link that makes my case
    Salvator Mundi - Wikipedia

    download.jpe
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  6. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Translating Revelation 12:9 - Greek, English, Latin.

    The Book of Revelation is truly a Book of Prophecy which covers future events which have not all been fulfilled. The revelation was revealed to the Apostle John and here in this Book of Prophecy do we find some of the best globe earth verses in the New Testament.
    ________________________________________________________
    Greek

    Revelation 12:9 uses two Greek words: G1093 γῆ gē and G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. The word gē is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets. The word oikouménē is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl. In some cases the word gē uniquely carries the globular meaning when applied as a synonym alongside oikouménē.

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

    "γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

    "οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."
    GettingtoKnowtheWCC-1000x540.jpg

    ____________________________________________
    English:

    "And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, he deceiving the whole habitable globe: he was cast into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    Context:
    "And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, he deceiving the whole habitable globe: he was cast into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    And I heard a great voice saying in heaven, Now was salvation and power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ for the accuser of our brethren was cast down, he accusing them before our God, day and night" (Rev.12:9-10, 1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    Its quite remarkable how only one English translation which was an independent work by an amateur translator is the only one that brings out the literal meaning of oikouménē. Normally if there is only one translation that agrees with a rendering no other translation supports, I would not use it for anything. But in this case Julia Smith is the only one who translated the Greek meaning correctly.
    _____________________________________________________________
    The Latin Vulgate.

    The Latin Vulgate was translated by Jerome in the late 4th century which is 1000 years before the Bible is translated in English from the original languages.

    "et proiectus est draco ille magnus serpens antiquus qui vocatur Diabolus et Satanas qui seducit universum orbem proiectus est in terram et angeli eius cum illo missi sunt"

    The earth in this verse is called orbem (aka, orb, orbis). Even in English under the definition of globe we find "orb."
    I found great synonyms for "globe" on the new Thesaurus.com!

    When we look up orb in the dictionary we see globe.
    I found great synonyms for "orb" on the new Thesaurus.com!

    The Latin Definition of orb
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/latin-word-for-32a4f12c247be0e7fa7851ad31ec63a509ae9b82.html

    Latin Definition of orbis
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...3b58f269f20cb8a0576db4c5547ab969c8fd090f.html

    Revelation 12:9 is a clear globe earth verse which is better supported by ancient Greek and Latin than it is in English.
    Revelation 3.jpg
     
  7. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    Spam, spam, spam, spam
    spam, spam, spam, spam...
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  8. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I think flat earthers are out of arguments.
     
  9. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    They never had any to begin with.
     
  10. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they can just repeat the same ones over and over like you do.
     
  11. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Well the axioms never change and when the same skepticism is repeated the answers never change.
     
  12. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    So now that you have proved that a spherical Earth is mentioned in the Bible, when are you going to show us that it is actually taught by the Bible?
     
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  13. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    What do you think I've been doing? I've even quoted from Latin which the Hebrew and Greek support better than the English. I have more than answered your question. I think you are trying to be funny right now by asking such an absurd question. For one thing, if its in the Bible its taught from the Bible. 2000 years of globe earth readings from the Bible can't go wrong.
     
  14. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Trying prove that whenever the Earth is mentioned in the Bible its sphericity is implied.
    Yes, that is what I am asking you to demonstrate.
     
  15. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I already demonstrated it.


    Translating Matthew 24:14 - English, Latin, Greek.

    For those of you who have been following this research you know how H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, when applied to the context of God's creation, His dominion over the earth and its inhabitants, means "the habitable globe" in English. There is also a Greek equivalent which I used for Psalm 19:4 & Romans 10:18. Its the Greek word G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. This word is also found in quite a few NT verses but only a dozen carry the globular meaning. The Greek analysis was more difficult than the Hebrew because the Matthew's Bible did not translate them as "round world." So I used the only English translation which supports the global meaning which is the 1876 Julia Smith Bible. Now there are good points and bad points to this translation. Julia Smith had a tendency to render oikouménē as "the habitable globe" when the context does not allow it. Just as in the case of têbêl, when the context must include the whole world along with its inhabitants, oikouménē also follows the same rule. When oikouménē is used with G1093 γῆ gē, there cannot be any dispute over the matter as both words carry the globular meaning when applied to the whole earth and its inhabitants.
    The Julia Smith translation is also a literal translation which makes it harder for reading comprehension. I used St.Jerome's Vulgate to proofread the translation, and also paid close attention to the context. If the context was wrong I excluded the verse as being a globe earth verse.
    ____________________________________________________________________
    English

    Matthew 24:14 used the Greek word G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē and is the Greek equivalent to H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, and its the words of Jesus Christ our Lord speaking about the signs of the times and tribulation and how the Gospel will be preached throughout the whole earth and then Christ will return.

    "And this good news of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole habitable globe for a witness to all nations: and then shall the end come" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    Julia Smith had many great scholars before her to study from. While it is clear most of her renderings are more in line with the KJV, when it comes to têbêl & oikouménē, Smith went by Tyndale and the lexicons.
    ____________________________________________________________________
    Greek

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

    "οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."
    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    The terrene part of the globe is the land occupied by its inhabitants. Sometimes oikouménē only refers to a region, like the Roman Empire. Matthew 24:14 is in context with the whole earth and its inhabitants
    GettingtoKnowtheWCC-1000x540.jpg
    ________________________________________________________________
    † St.Jerome's Latin Vulgate

    "et praedicabitur hoc evangelium regni in universo orbe in testimonium omnibus gentibus et tunc veniet consummatio"

    The phrase "universo orbe" means the whole globe.

    Latin Definition of Orbis
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...FquG050iZdZKRZ0NZH7tb3AQxyYbTEQPepLdOpr11rRvc

    The phrase "universo orbe" is another way of expressing "orbis terrae" and "orbis terrarum."

    Latin Definition of orbis terrae
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...df4a05b8dca4722d33d699f9eb4d26f6a50b87dc.html

    Latin Definition of orbis terrarum
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...9b92a191d7c9676387beb1ef9051b619e16b7650.html

    How to say world globe in Latin
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/latin-word-for-dceb55eeed07f166ecd8db67fe274be446d4c2ee.html

    Job 37:12,

    "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"
    NT6.jpg



     
  16. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  17. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    All you have demonstrated is that the sphericity of the Earth is part of the phenomenological language of the Bible, not that it is a teaching.
     
  18. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    Really? If the stars were set in the firmament and waters were above the firmament then why does your picture have the water here on earth over clouds?
     
  19. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    I don't see what you're saying.
    Btw it's not my picture. It's a sketchy and disproportionate concept created by somebody at Karbel Multimedia based on the hebrew scriptures.
     
  20. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    53180458_403144583779123_3622751510552641536_n.jpg
    :sorry:
     
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