Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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Queller

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The earth is a globe.
I'm going to keep trying until you address the question I asked:

Are you claiming that the only thing that can be inside the firmament (a sphere) is a ball?
 
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I find your question to foolish to answer. Try rephrasing it. I will not answer questions that are not well worded. Your question is poorly worded.
Which words specifically are you have trouble understanding?
 
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FEZZILLA

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G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē: The Rosetta Stone for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

Flat earthers still do not understand the meaning of H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl despite the fact I provided 4 Hebrew lexicons to prove the definition. This kind of denial is fine with me because it reduces the FE doctrine down to an opinionated movement (which it is). In the beginning of the movement FE tried very hard to use Hebrew lexicons to make their case, causing a sensation on social media. They also claimed that globe earth interpretations of the Bible were all based on interpreting the Bible to fit modern science, that such interpretations only go back 500 years.

The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Koine Greek, the same form of Greek used in the New Testament of the Bible. The Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders, who, of course, were masters in their own language. They translated the Hebrew word têbêl to the Greek equivalent oikouménē which is also used in the New Testament. The best example for this translating of têbêl to oikouménē is found in Psalm 19:4 which is quoted by the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:18.

The context in which H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is applied follows Psalm 19:1,

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

The rest of the context is about the message of Christ' salvation which goes throughout the whole world, which our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:14,

"And this good news of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole habitable globe for a witness to all nations: and then shall the end come" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

The Greek word used in this verse is oikouménē which was a word well understood by the Greeks to mean the whole habitable globe. Our modern English translations only use the word "world" which does not capture the Greek meaning in the English language. The Greeks of the 1st century did not question the round shape of the earth but believed in habitable parts of the globe which included antipodes. Had the 72 Jewish elders who translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek wanted to chose a different word they could have. But they chose the best Hebrew word that best represented the meaning of têbêl.

Psalm 19:4,

The best English translation that captures the meaning of têbêl is the 1876 Julia Smith Bible.

English: "Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

This would also translate into the 4th century Latin Vulgate as,

"et apparuerunt fontes aquarum et revelata sunt fundamenta orbis terrarum ab increpatione tua Domine ab inspiratione spiritus irae tuae"

✅Phrase: orbis terrarum, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...FbDm4WT6QC_vdJeCS-YckAWpVYmChEqGNbMMJ9-w-eCyQ

Latin Definition of orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...mXy38Ng8pyhsmiXC06sWq0olzXkUYpOANEUQVlb-3l6y4

The Latin definition of orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...UuXx-mEbDDbx4_4ieusVZOC8Ui6V8Yykcn_bRIltExvWQ

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...SMAq-YfeTWFTHSzBVXISy-kStHO85NLgqB9Ew-SJnISqg

Romans.10:18 quotes from Isaiah 40:21 and Psalm 19:4,

English: "But I say, Have they not heard? Surely, in all the earth went out their sound, and their words to the end of the habitable globe" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

The first clause: "But I say, Have they not heard?" alludes to Isaiah 40:21,

"Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?"

The second clause follows the first clause of Isaiah 40:21 but quotes from Psalm 19:4 instead of Isaiah 40:22.

There are two Greek words in Romans 10:18 which are translated from the Hebrew H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets & H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl. The words are G1093 γῆ gē, & G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē, used as Greek equivalents to H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets & H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

Greek: "αλλα λεγω μη ουκ ηκουσαν μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων και εις τα περατα της οικουμενης τα ρηματα αυτων"

Latin Vulgate: "sed dico numquid non audierunt et quidem in omnem terram exiit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum"

✅Phrase: orbis terrarum, from G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē and G1093 γῆ gē

Latin Definition of orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...mXy38Ng8pyhsmiXC06sWq0olzXkUYpOANEUQVlb-3l6y4

The Latin definition of orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...UuXx-mEbDDbx4_4ieusVZOC8Ui6V8Yykcn_bRIltExvWQ

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...SMAq-YfeTWFTHSzBVXISy-kStHO85NLgqB9Ew-SJnISqg

So the oldest and most reliable ancient Bibles agree the earth is round.

Hebrew: H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl
Greek: G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē
Latin: orbis terrae/ orbis terrarum

Remember, The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders.
_____________________________________________
Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].
The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

"TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."

___________________________________________
Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅Strong's:
"; by extension, the globe;"

✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <--AND-->"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
___________________________________________
Greek Lexicons for G1093 γῆ gē, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

"γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

G1093 γῆ gē is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets.

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

"οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."

The terrene part of the globe is the land occupied by its inhabitants. Sometimes oikouménē only refers to a region, like the Roman Empire. Matthew 24:14 and Romans 10:18 are in context with the whole earth and its inhabitants. G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.
An interesting article to read about the history of the Greek word oikouménē is on the link below which explains how the Greeks understood the word as it relates to the globe.
Oikuomene
GettingtoKnowtheWCC-1000x540.jpg
 
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FEZZILLA

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I'm not saying you're making anything up. But you're on the wrong path. There are alterations in scripture. I'm aware of that. This is why we have several translations, to give us different insights within which the Holy Spirit directs us to the truth.

Even I barely read the KJV and yet I can tell you it's practically the most original and unaltered version of scripture. None of the scriptures you highlighted refer to the earth as a globe in any of the versions most generally used.
The 1537 Matthew's Bible will beat the KJV in word searches 8 out of 10 times. The Latin Vulgate is more accurate than all English translations. There is much lost in English translations. While I recognize the need for English translations the Latin is still the best. The more you study Hebrew and Greek the more you appreciate the Vulgate over the English.

With that said, we really do need an English translation that is more accurate to the original languages than what we have. There are some good English translations out there such as listed below:

1. 1537 Matthew's Bible
2. 1539 Great Bible
3. 1568 Bishop's Bible
4. 1769 Oxford Revision of the KJV (the KJV of today)
5. NKJV
6. MEV
7.YLT
8.RSV

There are a couple of other good translations but these are the best. The 1876 Julia Smith Bible serves its purpose as well.
 
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T. Taylor

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Not one quote you cited said anything about flat earth. But lets examine the Pseudepigrapha book of Enoch which is not even on par with the Apocrypha books.



The foundation of the earth is molted rock.

As far the rest of it, why does everybody think in 2D? Now the term "ends of the earth" isn't a problem. What I do find problematic is "I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven." This does seem to support the flat earth view which correlates with "the waters of death" mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh which represented the edge of the world where sailing ships fall off. So when I read anything ancient I try to be fair to the text and understand what it means without forgetting about the skepticism. Sometimes it takes much time to solve these things if there is indeed a solution. So the fair treatment of the Enoch passage above would be to explain the extreme ends of the earth as in height and not just the breadth of the earth. The earth that rest on the heaven could be possibly speaking about (a) the first heaven which ends after we leave our Exosphere which is the last atmospheric layer of earth. When we leave the Exosphere we have entered into space, or the 2nd heaven. So perhaps Enoch is talking about the ends of the earth as in height. Or (b) it may be connected to the earth's suspension in space (the 2nd heaven), as the earth is being explained by resting on the heaven (Job 26:7).

“These are the two great luminaries. Their roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and the magnitude of their roundness is equivalent for both. There are seven (more) portions of light that move in the sun’s sphere than in the moon’s and it increases in measure until they seventy of the sun are competed” (Enoch 78:3-4).

The sun’s sphere? So the sun and moon are spheres but the earth is a flat disc? Is this how flat earthers want us to understand it? Flat earthers also try to say this verse supports their flat earth assumptions. But if this is speaking about a flat earth, then it is speaking about a vertical flat earth! For the author of Enoch compared the curvature of the sky to the roundness of the sun and moon. Since the sun and moon appear vertical to us, therefore the earth would also be seen as vertical from the moon. Thus if we are to accept a flat earth interpretation, the flat earthers have to explain how water and people etc. keep from falling off this vertical earth with no gravity! Its simple to see how the author of Enoch is comparing the sphere of the sun to roundness of the earthly sky.

Flat earthers also claim the Bible teaches us how the moon--literally--gives off its own light. Verses in the Bible that mention the moon giving light are not to be taken literally in terms of 21st century linguistics and science. Since flat earthers have Canonized Enoch, lets see what Enoch says about the moon and its light:

“Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which (direction) of the bright sun it is beamed. During all the seasons when the moon is made to run its cycle, the light is being beamed into it (the moon) facing the sun until the illumination (of the moon) is complete in the course of fourteen days; and when it is lit completely, it radiates light in the sky” (Enoch 78:10-11).

So here, in the book of Enoch, we read how the sun beams light into the moon from the sun. This does not support the FE model either!
View attachment 252869

e53d7f8067067a51029cde8260094ff5867b10ab6676b1d493c8dd8d23c4571b.jpg

:)
 
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Messenger 3k

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The 1537 Matthew's Bible will beat the KJV in word searches 8 out of 10 times. The Latin Vulgate is more accurate than all English translations. There is much lost in English translations. While I recognize the need for English translations the Latin is still the best. The more you study Hebrew and Greek the more you appreciate the Vulgate over the English.

With that said, we really do need an English translation that is more accurate to the original languages than what we have. There are some good English translations out there such as listed below:

1. 1537 Matthew's Bible
2. 1539 Great Bible
3. 1568 Bishop's Bible
4. 1769 Oxford Revision of the KJV (the KJV of today)
5. NKJV
6. MEV
7.YLT
8.RSV

There are a couple of other good translations but these are the best. The 1876 Julia Smith Bible serves its purpose as well.

The earth is not a globe. There is no scriptural basis for this. You're trying too hard.
 
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Strathos

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The earth is not a globe. There is no scriptural basis for this. You're trying too hard.

And what's the scriptural basis for mushroom earth? If anything, it makes even less sense than flat earth.
 
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And what's the scriptural basis for mushroom earth? If anything, it makes even less sense than flat earth.

I didn't call the earth a mushroom, you did; I went with it to help your understanding.

What other scriptural basis do you want?
Much of it has been provided by flat earthers even though they misuse some.

And how does this model make less sense than flat earth? Flat earth says east is clockwise and west is anti-clockwise. How does that make sense? How would it apply if for instance, the bible said, "Abraham moved east". Would it mean Abraham was moving aimlessly in a clockwise direction?

They say the sun merely revolves above the earth and so in an attempt to explain rising and setting they say the sun appears to be setting because it's moving further away from us. Okay, so why doesn't it become smaller but remains same size when setting? Then they attempt to confuse you with the most absurd scientific jargon: "well because the light from the sun is being magnified by a layer of dense air in front of it. So it's actually getting smaller as it moves away but also being magnified at the exact same rate so it appears to be the same size."

Then the globe earthers come along and tell you, "we have rising and setting because the earth is spinning around an axis at some crazy speed. Oh, and there are also people under the earth. And they don't fall off and aren't dizzy from all the crazy spinning. They also don't have blood rushing into their heads by now. Also, don't trust your senses one bit, the sun looks close but we tell you it's 93 million miles away, trust us".

.
 
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I didn't call the earth a mushroom, you did; I went with it to help your understanding.

What other scriptural basis do you want?
Much of it has been provided by flat earthers even though they misuse some.

And how does this model make less sense than flat earth? Flat earth says east is clockwise and west is anti-clockwise. How does that make sense? How would it apply if for instance, the bible said, "Abraham moved east". Would it mean Abraham was moving aimlessly in a clockwise direction?

They say the sun merely revolves above the earth and so in an attempt to explain rising and setting they say the sun appears to be setting because it's moving further away from us. Okay, so why doesn't it become smaller but remains same size when setting? Then they attempt to confuse you with the most absurd scientific jargon: "well because the light from the sun is being magnified by a layer of dense air in front of it. So it's actually getting smaller as it moves away but also being magnified at the exact same rate so it appears to be the same size."

Then the globe earthers come along and tell you, "we have rising and setting because the earth is spinning around an axis at some crazy speed. Oh, and there are also people under the earth. And they don't fall off and aren't dizzy from all the crazy spinning. They also don't have blood rushing into their heads by now. Also, don't trust your senses one bit, the sun looks close but we tell you it's 93 million miles away, trust us".

.
First of all nothing you said here has anything to do with the shape of the earth. I have already proven the Bible teaches globe earth. You do not have authoritative sources to support your Biblical claims.

As for Ecc.1:5 and what seems like the sun moving around the earth, I already answered that. But I will provide a more detailed answer in the future as I'm done with phase 1 of this research and now will enter phase 2 which will deal with verses like Ecc.1:5. I am very confident my answer is correct. The answer is simply that Solomon was wrong about that verse. But FE will say "But its in the Bible!" But how well do you know the Bible? How well do you know Solomon's account?
 
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First of all nothing you said here has anything to do with the shape of the earth. I have already proven the Bible teaches globe earth. You do not have authoritative sources to support your Biblical claims.

As for Ecc.1:5 and what seems like the sun moving around the earth, I already answered that. But I will provide a more detailed answer in the future as I'm done with phase 1 of this research and now will enter phase 2 which will deal with verses like Ecc.1:5. I am very confident my answer is correct. The answer is simply that Solomon was wrong about that verse. But FE will say "But its in the Bible!" But how well do you know the Bible? How well do you know Solomon's account?

Good luck with phase two of your research. Unfortunately I will not be needing it.

I've read scriptures well enough on this subject and digested the book of Enoch as well as several other pseudepigraphical literatures with the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I understand Enoch's diagram of the course of the sun around the earth. I understand his gates of rising and setting and why we have (had) 364 days in a year. The sun revolves around the earth; rises on the east side, goes above the earth and sets on the west, goes under the earth at high speed only to rise again on the east side.

That's the meaning of Ecclesiastes 1:5,

"The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises" (NIV)

Here's more: Psalm 19:4-6,

"In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth." (NIV)
 
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Freodin

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Then the globe earthers come along and tell you, "we have rising and setting because the earth is spinning around an axis at some crazy speed. Oh, and there are also people under the earth. And they don't fall off and aren't dizzy from all the crazy spinning. They also don't have blood rushing into their heads by now. Also, don't trust your senses one bit, the sun looks close but we tell you it's 93 million miles away, trust us".
I cannot accept anything you say as long as you make statements like this.

This is not what globe earthers tell you. This is what flat earthers claim that globe earthers tell them. It is a classic set of ignorace, misunderstanding and misrepresentations.

If flat earthers keep telling nonsense like this, how can anyone ever take them serious?
 
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I understand Enoch's diagram of the course of the sun around the earth. I understand his gates of rising and setting and why we have (had) 364 days in a year. The sun revolves around the earth; rises on the east side, goes above the earth and sets on the west, goes under the earth at high speed only to rise again on the east side.
This is in fact a better understanding of ancient cosmology than the modern Flat Earthers demonstrate.

But this model is also very easy to demonstrate as incorrect. It doesn't work on a flat earth, with or without convex curvature added. That is the reason why modern Flat Earthers don't use it, as much as the tout the "wisdom of the ancients".
 
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I cannot accept anything you say as long as you make statements like this.

This is not what globe earthers tell you. This is what flat earthers claim that globe earthers tell them. It is a classic set of ignorace, misunderstanding and misrepresentations.

If flat earthers keep telling nonsense like this, how can anyone ever take them serious?

This is not what anyone claims you say. This is the premise you actually hold as globe earthers. And I am not a flat earther. I've clarified this enough. Plus I don't do categories.

What in my statement above was false?

If you claim the earth is a globe don't you assume people live underneath?

Don't you assume the earth spins around it's axis at a certain speed, bringing about night and day?

Don't you assume the sun is 93 million miles away from the earth?

Aren't you still drinking some of that delusion Kool Aid?
 
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This is in fact a better understanding of ancient cosmology than the modern Flat Earthers demonstrate.

But this model is also very easy to demonstrate as incorrect. It doesn't work on a flat earth, with or without convex curvature added. That is the reason why modern Flat Earthers don't use it, as much as the tout the "wisdom of the ancients".

Again, I am not a flat earther.

The flat earth movement is a movement of people who discovered the lies but couldn't find the truth.

The model isn't meant to work on flat earth. It has nothing to do with flat earth besides not being a globe. The flat earth movement was a quest for the truth which ended up becoming nonsensical.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Good luck with phase two of your research. Unfortunately I will not be needing it.

I've read scriptures well enough on this subject and digested the book of Enoch as well as several other pseudepigraphical literatures with the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I understand Enoch's diagram of the course of the sun around the earth. I understand his gates of rising and setting and why we have (had) 364 days in a year. The sun revolves around the earth; rises on the east side, goes above the earth and sets on the west, goes under the earth at high speed only to rise again on the east side.

That's the meaning of Ecclesiastes 1:5,

"The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises" (NIV)

Here's more: Psalm 19:4-6,

"In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth." (NIV)
First of all, Psalm 19 does NOT teach the sun is moving. You clearly have no clue what the Psalm is about. Verse 4, however, does teach the sun is stationary and the earth is an orb and all orbs move...orbit. The rest of the Psalm is about the light of Christ' salvation, being compared to the light of the sun, how it shines throughout the world. This is also the Apostolic teaching.

Enoch is pseudepigrapha which means its a falsely ascribe writing. Though the Book was most likely a Rabbinic writing. It teaches the earth is round.

Lastly, if you read the Bible literally you won't understand much of what is actually being said.
 
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