Isaiah 17 is this pre trip or during trib?

[Jaecubed]

I'm struggling to understand if Isaiah 17:1 "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." Will this happen before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation or doesn't it really make it clear? Thank you.

Edit: It seems some believe this has already happen as well. That adds even more confusion on this verse.

 

[Dave L]

I'm struggling to understand if Isaiah 17:1 "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." Will this happen before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation or doesn't it really make it clear? Thank you.

Edit: It seems some believe this has already happen as well. That adds even more confusion on this verse.

“The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, And it shall be a ruinous heap.” Isaiah 17:1 (KJV 1900)

17:1 Damascus, the ringleader in the alliance of Syria and Israel against Judah (see note on 7:1–25), fell when the Assyrian king Tiglath-pileser III invaded in 732 BC.

New Living Translation Study Bible. (2008). (Is 17:1). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm struggling to understand if Isaiah 17:1 "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." Will this happen before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation or doesn't it really make it clear? Thank you.

Edit: It seems some believe this has already happen as well. That adds even more confusion on this verse.

Damascus never stopped being a city so.. I don't believe the preterists are right. When Isaiah 17 happens.. Damascus is not just hit hard by war, but it is utterly desolated and nobody lives in it anymore, it stops being a city.
It'd take something beyond anything that's ever happened to it for that to happen and keep in mind Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been hit with atomic bombs and they are still cities.
I believe that Isaiah 17 is something that happens either before the 70th week, or during the 2nd or 4th seals. You may call those the tribulations but I have a pretty narrow definition of what constitutes the great tribulations (which for me, is only a short period of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and I believe that is when Jesus comes in the clouds for the resurrection and rapture (not to be mistaken with when Jesus actually comes to the mount of olives in Revelation 19)).. because in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus only terms the great tribulations as what happens after the abomination of desolation, at the midpoint of the 70th week, but before He arrives to gather His elect. The stuff before the abomination of desolation He just calls "the beginning of sorrows"
So to me, that's the Mark of the beast, and campaign to wipe out Christians and Jews, all the martyrs in the 5th seal.
But anyway.. tangent.. to me, Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38 and Jeremiah 49 are all pre trib events, but for you you may consider them to be happening early in the tribulations, 2nd seal events, unless they happen before the 70th week which is also possible. They sound like 70th week events though.

 

[Jaecubed]

Damascus never stopped being a city so.. I don't believe the preterists are right. When Isaiah 17 happens.. Damascus is not just hit hard by war, but it is utterly desolated and nobody lives in it anymore, it stops being a city.
It'd take something beyond anything that's ever happened to it for that to happen and keep in mind Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been hit with atomic bombs and they are still cities.
I believe that Isaiah 17 is something that happens either before the 70th week, or during the 2nd or 4th seals. You may call those the tribulations but I have a pretty narrow definition of what constitutes the great tribulations (which for me, is only a short period of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and I believe that is when Jesus comes in the clouds for the resurrection and rapture (not to be mistaken with when Jesus actually comes to the mount of olives in Revelation 19)).. because in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus only terms the great tribulations as what happens after the abomination of desolation, at the midpoint of the 70th week, but before He arrives to gather His elect. The stuff before the abomination of desolation He just calls "the beginning of sorrows"
So to me, that's the Mark of the beast, and campaign to wipe out Christians and Jews, all the martyrs in the 5th seal.
But anyway.. tangent.. to me, Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38 and Jeremiah 49 are all pre trib events, but for you you may consider them to be happening early in the tribulations, 2nd seal events, unless they happen before the 70th week which is also possible. They sound like 70th week events though.

This is a great point in that it might also depend on your view of when the rapture occurs. Interesting thought. Ultimately it doesn't matter as it has nothing to do with salvation but I'm the kind of person that loves to know as much as possible about these things. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. Have a Blessed day!

 

[Jaecubed]

“The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, And it shall be a ruinous heap.” Isaiah 17:1 (KJV 1900)

17:1 Damascus, the ringleader in the alliance of Syria and Israel against Judah (see note on 7:1–25), fell when the Assyrian king Tiglath-pileser III invaded in 732 BC.

New Living Translation Study Bible. (2008). (Is 17:1). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.

So you believe it has already happen? Thank you for responding to my question and God Bless!

 

[Dave L]

Damascus never stopped being a city so.. I don't believe the preterists are right. When Isaiah 17 happens.. Damascus is not just hit hard by war, but it is utterly desolated and nobody lives in it anymore, it stops being a city.
It'd take something beyond anything that's ever happened to it for that to happen and keep in mind Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been hit with atomic bombs and they are still cities.
I believe that Isaiah 17 is something that happens either before the 70th week, or during the 2nd or 4th seals. You may call those the tribulations but I have a pretty narrow definition of what constitutes the great tribulations (which for me, is only a short period of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and I believe that is when Jesus comes in the clouds for the resurrection and rapture (not to be mistaken with when Jesus actually comes to the mount of olives in Revelation 19)).. because in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus only terms the great tribulations as what happens after the abomination of desolation, at the midpoint of the 70th week, but before He arrives to gather His elect. The stuff before the abomination of desolation He just calls "the beginning of sorrows"
So to me, that's the Mark of the beast, and campaign to wipe out Christians and Jews, all the martyrs in the 5th seal.
But anyway.. tangent.. to me, Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38 and Jeremiah 49 are all pre trib events, but for you you may consider them to be happening early in the tribulations, 2nd seal events, unless they happen before the 70th week which is also possible. They sound like 70th week events though.

If Damascus was to be destroyed forever, it would not be here today. Do we need to re-consider the prophecy?

 

[Dave L]

So you believe it has already happen? Thank you for responding to my question and God Bless!

If Damascus was to be destroyed forever, it would not be here today. Do we need to re-consider the prophecy? Do you place your interpretation of Isaiah above the truth of God's word....saying it did not happen?

 

[Jamdoc]

If Damascus was to be destroyed forever, it would not be here today. Do we need to re-consider the prophecy?

exactly why I say that it hasn't happened yet. Because it has not been completely destroyed and stopped existing as a city.

 

[Davy]

Only way to really know is to 'pay attention' to all... of the Isaiah 17 chapter, not just pieces of it like many preachers do with their chopping up God's Word just to create a Sunday one hour sermon.

Isa 17
17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

"Aroer" is Hebrew for 'nudity of situation' (OT:6176). The idea here is about these cities being in a waste state, and the flocks take them over as pastures.


3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.

Refers to both historical northern "kingdom of Israel" with one of the tribe of Ephraim as its king, but also at the end regarding Ephraim being in a waste state (see Isaiah 28). Notice in Revelation 7 that Manasseh is mentioned, but Joseph is put instead of Ephraim.


4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

This is not just about the Jews, nor the northern kingdom (ten tribes) through history. This is pointing to all... the children of Israel, everywhere. Possibly pointing to the time of sorrows just prior to the great tribulation.


5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.

The Rephaim was a name for the giants. This idea is that it won't be safe to even go out in the fields to pick crops because of the danger.


6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.

The gleaning grapes, two or three berries left, etc., represent God's elect. To me it says there will be some that will know the truth even in the time of the end, during sorrows and danger.


7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

What time on earth would especially cause the believer to look to his Maker for deliverance? I'd say it's the time of great tribulation for the end of this world.


8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

This is pointing to a time like the end of Joel 2 I believe, which is about a time just prior to the "day of the Lord" (i.e., just prior to the day of Jesus coming).


9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

This continues the state of the one who looks to his Maker for help in evil times.


10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:
11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

This points even more to a time of desolation, because of their planting "strange slips", i.e., idol worship.


12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

That reveals this is not just about the city of Damascus, but about nations gathering together like a great noise of the seas, rushing like mighty waters, and then God rebukes them like chaff of the mountains before the wind. That's about the end, the gathering of nations that go upon Israel to prey at the end of this world, and then God comes off His throne in anger at them, a la Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 16 on the 7th Vial.


14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.
KJV

Those that spoil Israel, is the idea. That destruction is about the nations to gather up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world. So the previous parts of Isaiah 17 may indeed have been historical, but this is also about the very end of this world also.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

I'm struggling to understand if Isaiah 17:1 "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." Will this happen before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation or doesn't it really make it clear? Thank you.

Edit: It seems some believe this has already happen as well. That adds even more confusion on this verse.

Isaiah was prophesying sometime in the 740s BC and then Damascus fell in 732 BC and Israel fell 10 years later; see 2 Kings 16:9. If we look at chronology as near as it can be determined, by what rationale would we seek a fulfillment over 2700 years in the future to Isaiah, in our future? What meaning would it have had whatsoever to men of Isaiah's day? To take the words "for ever" as in the Septuagint on Isaiah 17:2 with such literalism does not fit prophetic style. Doing a word study of "for ever" or "forever" shows it is not always to be pressed to such extreme literalism.

When going through the various commentaries on www.studylight.org it seems the interpretation to place Isaiah 17:1ff into our future is merely done to fit it into a modern scheme of eschatology created by the imaginations of men but not found in the vast number of commentaries on that site. It appears to me to be a creative attempt at interpretation to support this particular futuristic eschatology. IMHO

 

[Davy]

There is still much prophecy in the Book of Isaiah that has never been fulfilled to this day. Isaiah even covers events for the world to come after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

The way to determine what areas in Isaiah are for the future is about 'rightly dividing' the timelines given per the 'type' of events and their links to other Scriptures that are in parallel. For example, by the time we get to the last 3 verses in Isaiah 17, it's obvious that it's no longer just about the city of Damascus, but about a gathering of the nations and God's rebuke upon them. Well, that event is a direct parallel to Scripture like Zephaniah 3:8 and Revelation 16:14-17; Revelation 19:11-19; Joel 3 and Zechariah 14 about the "day of the Lord" events on the final day of this world when Jesus returns.

If you want to truly understand God's Word, study must be done His way, and not man's way. Apostle Paul said to become a workman in The Word, rightly dividing. In Isaiah 28 God mocks the leaders in Jerusalem using their own words, because they didn't like that God's method of study is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. That is how it's done, asking God for understanding.

But if one relies on men's doctrines, they could easily tie themselves to a tether (a rope attached to a pole that livestock is chained to). That tether will only reach so far. The Preterist or Historicist or Futurist seminary doctrines of men rely on applying Bible Scripture tied to a tether. That tether is the idea that much of The Old Testament is pretty much history, dead history, which is not really true, and even that most of Christ's Book of Revelation is history too, which again is not true. So with men's doctrines, what you're really beginning with is an 'assumed' idea planted in the mind that God's Word is made to follow.

This is what our Lord Jesus was talking about when He said you don't put new wine in old bottles (Matthew 9). It was actually about animal skins used as wine skins. An old wine skin will burst if you put newly fermenting wine into it. For the new wine, the container must be able to expand and take the pressure, otherwise they'll break. Jesus said you put new wine in new skins ("bottles"), so both are preserved. The parable is about The Word of God full strength as the 'new wine'. The bottles (or wine skins) is about us, our understanding. Someone who's understanding is like an old wine skin, if you try to put new wine into it, it will break. Tethers from men's doctrines help create that.

 

[Davy]

I'm struggling to understand if Isaiah 17:1 "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." Will this happen before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation or doesn't it really make it clear? Thank you.

Edit: It seems some believe this has already happen as well. That adds even more confusion on this verse.

It is leading up to the tribulation at the end, through it and thereafter.

Really, Isaiah 1 is like a summary of the Book. The Woe and Burden chapters contain history, and prophecy leading all the way up to the end with Christ's return, all the way to the 35th chapter has prophecies about the end. The Isaiah 24 thru 27 chapters are often called 'The Apocalypse of Isaiah'.

 

[Davy]

When going through the various commentaries on www.studylight.org it seems the interpretation to place Isaiah 17:1ff into our future is merely done to fit it into a modern scheme of eschatology created by the imaginations of men but not found in the vast number of commentaries on that site. It appears to me to be a creative attempt at interpretation to support this particular futuristic eschatology. IMHO

That reasoning of course is based on the doctrines of men, and not on how God gave His prophets to prophesy of future events. Man's doctrines of Preterism and Historicism often attempt to label future prophecy as a Futurist doctrine of men, totally missing future events that have never... happened before in history.

Isa 17:12-13
12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
KJV

Those Isaiah 17:12-13 verses is not just a prophecy about Damascus. It's about this below...


Isa 29:5-7
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
KJV


That prophecy is about the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. That is when God's consuming fire happens according to 2 Peter 3:10. That day is still yet FUTURE to us.

So any claim that Isaiah 17 doesn't contain prophecy that is still yet FUTURE shows the actual 'scheme' or agenda of men's doctrines.