Is Your Church Eternal?

[Dale]

Is the church eternal or can the church fail?

Catholics tell me that Jesus ordained His Church and that Church will stand until the Day of Judgment. God ordained it and that's that. Is this what the Bible really tells us?

In Revelation chapters 2-3, John is directed to write to seven churches. Jesus says mostly good things to four of them, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira and Philadelphia.

There are some rather chilling comments directed to the other three churches, Ephesus, Sardis, and Laodicea.

The seven churches are represented by seven lampstands which stand before the Throne of God.

To Ephesus: "If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
--Rev 2:5 NIV

In other words, barring drastic repentance, the Church at Ephesus will no longer have a lamp before God's Throne. If possible, the Church at Sardis is warned even more harshly.

To Sardis: "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead."
--Revelation 3:1 NIV

Jesus says to Sardis: " ... you are dead."

To Laodicea: "16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth."
--Rev 3:16 NIV

In these warnings, Ephesus is in danger of having its lamp removed from God's sight, Sardis is already "dead," and Laodicea is about to be spit out, rejected.

There is nothing here about Apostolic succession, nothing about any of these churches having an altar consecrated by a Bishop. The three churches are likely to be removed because of the behavior of the members.

Catholics tell me that John was the Bishop of these seven churches, so the letters he wrote them are like pastoral letters issued by Catholic Bishops today. Of course, pastoral letters from the Bishop today aren't dictated by Jesus. Many believe, or assume, that Revelation was written by the Apostle John, so by this thinking these seven churches had an original Apostle as their immediate Bishop. If so, having an Apostle as Bishop isn't saving them from rejection by God. The point is not whether these are "Apostolic churches" but whether they are God's churches.

Scholars think it is unlikely that John the Revelator was the Apostle John, and the text doesn't say that he is. Either way, John the Revelator was still a prophet of God, so if he was the Bishop of the seven churches, having a prophet as Bishop still doesn't save them from being rejected by God because of their behavior.

The age or history of a church doesn't tell us if that church is in God's favor.

 

[Albion]

Can a particular congregation fail or fold? Is that the question?

 

[Andy centek]

Is the church eternal or can the church fail?

Catholics tell me that Jesus ordained His Church and that Church will stand until the Day of Judgment. God ordained it and that's that. Is this what the Bible really tells us?

In Revelation chapters 2-3, John is directed to write to seven churches. Jesus says mostly good things to four of them, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira and Philadelphia.

There are some rather chilling comments directed to the other three churches, Ephesus, Sardis, and Laodicea.

The seven churches are represented by seven lampstands which stand before the Throne of God.

To Ephesus: "If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
--Rev 2:5 NIV

In other words, barring drastic repentance, the Church at Ephesus will no longer have a lamp before God's Throne. If possible, the Church at Sardis is warned even more harshly.

To Sardis: "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead."
--Revelation 3:1 NIV

Jesus says to Sardis: " ... you are dead."

To Laodicea: "16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth."
--Rev 3:16 NIV

In these warnings, Ephesus is in danger of having its lamp removed from God's sight, Sardis is already "dead," and Laodicea is about to be spit out, rejected.

There is nothing here about Apostolic succession, nothing about any of these churches having an altar consecrated by a Bishop. The three churches are likely to be removed because of the behavior of the members.

Catholics tell me that John was the Bishop of these seven churches, so the letters he wrote them are like pastoral letters issued by Catholic Bishops today. Of course, pastoral letters from the Bishop today aren't dictated by Jesus. Many believe, or assume, that Revelation was written by the Apostle John, so by this thinking these seven churches had an original Apostle as their immediate Bishop. If so, having an Apostle as Bishop isn't saving them from rejection by God. The point is not whether these are "Apostolic churches" but whether they are God's churches.

Scholars think it is unlikely that John the Revelator was the Apostle John, and the text doesn't say that he is. Either way, John the Revelator was still a prophet of God, so if he was the Bishop of the seven churches, having a prophet as Bishop still doesn't save them from being rejected by God because of their behavior.

The age or history of a church doesn't tell us if that church is in God's favor.

 

[Andy centek]

Hi DALE:

Perhaps the problem here is, what church? This One sees only One true church, the Body of Jesus Christ, which is filled with the Elect of God. Man has multitudes of what they call Churches.
The are numerous Denominations of man called churches; this is one of the Big problems of today's teachings. God has One true church, The Body of Christ, the members who have been called by the Holy Spirit into it.
1Co_12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Eph 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

These scriptures tell the whole story of the true church and the purpose of it. Man's churches are exactly that, man's churches. Each has their own program. One saids to do things this way, the others to do it their way. This is far from the spiritual unity of the Body of Christ.

You may want to read my writing on water baptism for an example. My advice is to pray to God through the Lord Jesus Christ and ask for His guidance in all matters.

Mat 12:25-26 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Andy Centek

 

[~Anastasia~]

We have to remember Revelation was written to Christians who were ALL a part of the One Church, undivided, the Body of Christ. There were no denominations. The Church at Ephasus, Laodicia, etc. were gatherings in deferent cities, so different local communities - but all part of the One Church.

Yes, local communities can fail, if they as a group deviate from what they should be doing.

But we can't extrapolate that to denominations, etc. and make doctrine of it.

The landscape of Christianity, broadly speaking today, is vastly different from anything the Apostles addressed in Scripture.

 

[Dale]

Can a particular congregation fail or fold? Is that the question?

Revelation makes it clear that a local church can fail. It leaves open the possibility that movements much larger than a local church, such as denominations, can fail as well.

 

[concretecamper]

I think the promises made by Christ in Matthew's Gospel make it clear that The Church cannot fail.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think the promises made by Christ in Matthew's Gospel make it clear that The Church cannot fail.

The difficulty then arises as to how "the Church" is defined. Many have chosen define it as the religious bureaucracy that has its headquarters in a particular location. That sort of organizational approach is fraught with problems and is prone to failure at various levels.

 

[concretecamper]

The difficulty then arises as to how "the Church" is defined

I have no difficulty whatsoever

Many have chosen define it as the religious bureaucracy that has its headquarters in a particular location.

Your comment doesn't make any sense.
The location of the earthly headquarters is not a mark of the Church.

That sort of organizational approach is fraught with problems and is prone to failure at various levels.

Of course you arrive at that conclusion. It's because your premise doesn't make sense.

 

[Dale]

Catholics seem to assume that we are saved by the church. God provides the church, and to be saved, you need to join the right church. Yet the comments on the church in Sardis in Revelation Three give a different perspective. Jesus tells us that the church in Sardis is "dead," but He goes on to say that some individuals, perhaps whole families, will be saved. Although the local church is dead, those who have kept themselves clean will be "dressed in white" in Heaven. We are not saved by being baptized in the right church, or attending the right church, but by a personal relationship with Christ.


"4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels." --Revelation 3:4-5 NIV

 

[concretecamper]

Catholics seem to assume that we are saved by the church

Incorrect.

I would wish people would at least understand other faiths before they put in writing what someone else believes.

 

[Albion]

Catholics seem to assume that we are saved by the church. God provides the church, and to be saved, you need to join the right church. Yet the comments on the church in Sardis in Revelation Three give a different perspective. Jesus tells us that the church in Sardis is "dead," but He goes on to say that some individuals, perhaps whole families, will be saved. Although the local church is dead, those who have kept themselves clean will be "dressed in white" in Heaven. We are not saved by being baptized in the right church, or attending the right church, but by a personal relationship with Christ.

This is why bbbbbbb was right that it would be good to know which meaning of the word church we are supposed to be contemplating here.

 

[Dale]

This is why bbbbbbb was right that it would be good to know which meaning of the word church we are supposed to be contemplating here.

The letters to the churches in Revelation seem to regard the local church as a congregation. There is no sign of a hierarchy. The local church must have leaders but the letters seem to assign some responsibility to every person, or every person who knows enough to have an opinion.

 

[Albion]

The letters to the churches in Revelation seem to regard the local church as a congregation. There is no sign of a hierarchy. The local church must have leaders but the letters seem to assign some responsibility to every person, or every person who knows enough to have an opinion

I agree that the Scriptures cited used the word to refer to individual congregations, but they don't address Apostolic Succession or even what you referred to as 'hierarchy,' yet we know that both were operational from very early in Christian history, certainly by the time of John's vision. In addition, almost everything in Revelation is symbolic of something else, and that appears to be the case with the comments about these churches.

 

[Dale]

Incorrect.

I would wish people would at least understand other faiths before they put in writing what someone else believes.

Maybe you could explain it.

 

[Major1]

I agree that the Scriptures cited used the word to refer to individual congregations, but they don't address Apostolic Succession or even what you referred to as 'hierarchy,' yet we know that both were operational from very early in Christian history, certainly by the time of John's vision. In addition, almost everything in Revelation is symbolic of something else, and that appears to be the case with the comments about these churches.

Agreed.

There is in fact NO church doctrine found in the Revelation. Everything in the book is concerning Israel and the nations and is a Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Major1]

Revelation makes it clear that a local church can fail. It leaves open the possibility that movements much larger than a local church, such as denominations, can fail as well.

Local churches have failed since the inception of the church.

God's chosen church will NOT FAIL and will be Raptured and then there will be NO church on the earth except the Anti/Christ church.

 

[Dale]

Agreed.

There is in fact NO church doctrine found in the Revelation. Everything in the book is concerning Israel and the nations and is a Revelation of Jesus Christ.

So the Letters to the Churches and the Spirits of the Churches before the throne of God tell us nothing about the church?

What next? Are you going to tell us that the Gospels say nothing about ethics?

 

[Major1]

So the Letters to the Churches and the Spirits of the Churches before the throne of God tell us nothing about the church?

What next? Are you going to tell us that the Gospels say nothing about ethics?

That is NOT what I said is it.

I said that there is NO Church "Doctrine" in those 7 letters. Find one and post it if you think that is not the case.

Each letter is addressed to the churches Pastor (Angel).

The first part of each letter includes a description of The Lord Jesus Christ, highly symbolic and different for each church.

The second part of each letter begins with "I know," emphasizing God's omniscience. Jesus proceeds to praise the church for its merits or criticizes it for its faults.

The third part contains exhortation, a spiritual instruction on how the church should mend its ways, or a commendation for its faithfulness.

The fourth part concludes the message with the words, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." The Holy Spirit is Christ's presence on Earth, forever guiding and convicting to keep his followers on the right path.

None of those are "Church Doctrines" my friend.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That is NOT what I said is it.

I said that there is NO Church "Doctrine" in those 7 letters. Find one and post it if you think that is not the case.

Each letter is addressed to the churches Pastor (Angel).

The first part of each letter includes a description of The Lord Jesus Christ, highly symbolic and different for each church.

The second part of each letter begins with "I know," emphasizing God's omniscience. Jesus proceeds to praise the church for its merits or criticizes it for its faults.

The third part contains exhortation, a spiritual instruction on how the church should mend its ways, or a commendation for its faithfulness.

The fourth part concludes the message with the words, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." The Holy Spirit is Christ's presence on Earth, forever guiding and convicting to keep his followers on the right path.

None of those are "Church Doctrines" my friend.

Just as a side comment, I find it curious that there is a peculiar conflation between angel (άγγελος) and pastor
(πάστορας) in Baptist theology, but only in this passage. In all other New Testaments usages of άγγελος Baptists seem quite content to accept the translation as being angel, not pastor.

Do you know how this odd conflation came about?