Is worshipping the Trinity worshipping three gods?

[Neostarwcc]

Some make it seem like we are worshiping three Gods. So, I get your question. However, without entering into long debates, this is how I see it. Speaking of God, the Bible says "He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light (1 Timothy 6:16)." Therefore, if He approached us we would be repelled. Conversely, we can't approach Him because of the immensity of the Light. Therefore, in order for God to begin to have a relationship with us, He revealed Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three different roles, but one God. Kind of like a man being a father, son, and a husband. Grace and Peace.

So God before he created humanity and the universe God was one God? And then he split himself into three persons who are still the same one God when he formed the universe? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Here are some reasons to delight in the Trinity (I can elaborate more if you'd like me to):

1) It's what the Bible teaches and particularly how the New Testament Jews (monotheists) expressed the reality of God that had been revealed with the coming of the Son. Take a look at John 14-17, Titus 3:3-7, and Romans 6-8 just to scratch the surface this isn't something that was made up just to be difficult, it is the only way to account for the data. Note that the Father, Son and Spirit are all distinct from one another, all share attributes, all exist in close relationship, all have distinct functions in the life of the church and each believer, creation, and redemption.

2) It makes sense of God's essential quality being "agape" (1 John 4:8 "God IS agape"). Agape love requires at least two people since it is defined as benevolent (other-benefiting) love. You can't "agape" alone. The Father can't have always been the Father if the Son hasn't always been the Son. Jesus can't return to the glory he had WITH the Father, if he hadn't been with and distinct from the Father.

3) It makes sense of the Christian life as participation in the life of God. The Father sent the Son, the Father and Son sent the Spirit in order to bring us into the relationship (family) they have always enjoyed together. Read Ephesians 1:3-14 for more on that. 2 Peter 1:1-4 is helpful too: we are participants in the divine nature. We are "in" one of the Members of the Trinity (the Son - see Romans 6) and we have one of the Members "in" us (the Spirit - see Romans 8, and John 14).

4) It makes sense of Jesus's extreme self-knowledge and Yahweh-only actions : receiving worship, forgiving sins (Psalm 51:4, walking on water (see Job 9), calming the storm (see Psalm 65: 5-7), having all authority and judgement (John and Matthew 28:19

5) Jesus's parity with the Angel of Yahweh in the Old Testament(who also blesses, receives worship, doesn't give his name, is with but distinct from Yahweh, has Yahweh's Name which no one else can have, etc., see John 10, Jesus is not comparing himself to human rulers but to Spirit beings in Psalm 82. The author of Hebrews picks up on this: Jesus is way above angels.)

6) Makes sense of the New Covenant in which God forgives sins and writes His law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34 and again in Hebrews 8-11, also Joel 2:28-29 quoted in Acts 2. See also Romans 8 for how the Spirit enables us to keep God's righteous legal requirements).

7) Makes sense of baptism in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18-20) and the disciples constant use of those three names as distinct but unified. There's a constant and simultaneous blurring yet distinction on the three persons (the Father and Son and in Acts, the Son and the Holy Spirit.)

8) It makes sense of both the Father and Son's insistence that while the Father is the "focus" person (the one who initiatives relationship with us) the Son provides the means of the relationship. "If you have the Son you have the Father too, if you don't have the Son you don't have the Father (John 14, John 15:9). The Father delights in the Son, if you delight in the Son then you've properly evaluated Him and the Father loves you because He loves the Son.

9) It makes sense of Creation: All things were made by the Son and for the Son (Colossians 1:16). Creation is a gift of love from the Father to the Son, cooperatively created by the three-persons. As such, the universe has loving relationship, not power, as its core. That's really good news.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Sadly most Christians are not taught the "why" of the Magnificent Three, let alone the "what". I hope that gives some helpful things to ponder.

Grace and Peace.

Yes that was extremely helpful. I still have concerns though (See post #60).

Idk I just view myself as lost. Like maybe I am losing my faith by asking questions and starting to doubt about the Trinity. I mean when I accepted Christ seven years ago I knew there would be perilous times ahead but I wanted to dedicate myself to Christ for the rest of my life because I was so broken. I don't know I could be in an episode right now without realizing it (I'm Schizo-affective which means that I'm both Bipolar and Schizophrenic and I have had many episodes since I was diagnosed in 2011).

It would make sense. I do start to doubt Jesus's claims as the messiah or get all godly during an episode and read scripture excessively like I've been doing lately. I've also not been sleeping much over the course of the last like three weeks. So... who knows. Anyway if I am in an episode it's a rather mild one because I can barely tell I am in one besides my major depression last night. Anyway, who knows. It's still good to get the answers to my questions so that I can defend my faith to others instead of saying "The trinity is just a mystery that nobody can comprehend." all the time.

 

[Albion]

Maybe. I can see your point. But it also raises many questions. I mean throughout the NT Paul, John, Peter, and many of the apostles who saw and witnessed Christ in the flesh claimed and believed that Christ was fully and completely God in the flesh. And yet they called God the Father God as well.

But it wasn't until the 4th century after they were dead for over 300 years that the doctrine of the Trinity started in Christianity. So why did Christianity even start if the early apostles and early church were worshiping two separate gods? When all of the Jews and Gentiles that converted knew that God was one? Not two. (That's probably why most of the Jews of the time throughout today have rejected Jesus) I mean the gospels are full of what the Jews said and did to Jesus because of his "paganistic" teachings. They didn't like that he claimed to be God and that he claimed that his Father who was God also was one with himself so that means that there's two separate gods out there. So of course they didn't believe him!

And apparently the emperor who started the Trinitarian belief (Constantine) wasn't even a Christian but instead worshiped the pagan gods of Rome and wanted to combine Christianity with the Pagan religions of Rome. Apparently on his deathbed he converted. So maybe that gives a little credibility to his story and why he started the Trinity but... idk...

I dedicated myself to Christ for the rest of my life. I'm not turning back on that dedication. I just want to be able to defend my faith to others without them saying "You worship three separate gods doesn't that not smell right to you when your bible says that God is one?" I mean I have to basically reply back with "The Trinity is a mystery that nobody can comprehend." and it's like... I'm relying completely on faith here that what I believe is the truth is the truth.

True, I've been given MUCH evidence that it's the truth. But, I'd like to understand how it works. As would probably every Christian I guess. So idk what I'm complaining about.

A few things to consider:

It is not so much that the early Christians thought they were worshipping two gods as that they were not sure how to believe in one God and plug Jesus and the Holy Spirit into it. Finally, the church gave its official answer, based on its understanding of Scripture. We call that the Nicene Creed.

That Constantine stuff is bunk. He did convert to Christianity and wanted a united church. He therefore patronized the Council of Nicaea but was not at all dictating to it. Many of the bishops there had already been through torture at the hands of other rulers; why would they be servile in the face of this one?

The fact that Constantine put off his baptism until late in life is not remarkable. That was the custom in those days, even though we now see such an act as strange. The reason was that people thought that once baptism removes ones sins, any sins committed afterwards were beyond being forgiven. The church later corrected that.

 

[GraceBro]

So God before he created humanity and the universe God was one God? And then he split himself into three persons who are still the same one God when he formed the universe? That doesn't make any sense.

He's always been one God. For example, look at Donald Trump (politics aside). He is President to the citizens. He is a husband to Melania. He is a father to his children. Three different "person's", if you will, but still one man. No example can fully explain God, but I hope this helps.

 

[Neostarwcc]

A few things to consider:

It is not so much that the early Christians thought they were worshipping two gods as that they were not sure how to believe in one God and plug Jesus and the Holy Spirit into it. Finally, the church gave its official answer, based on its understanding of Scripture. We call that the Nicene Creed.

That Constantine stuff is bunk. He did convert to Christianity and wanted a united church. He therefore patronized the Council of Nicaea but was not at all dictating to it. Many of the bishops there had already been through torture at the hands of other rulers; why would they be servile in the face of this one?

The fact that Constantine put off his baptism until late in life is not remarkable. That was the custom in those days, even though we now see such an act as strange. The reason was that people thought that once baptism removes ones sins, any sins committed afterwards were beyond being forgiven. The church later corrected that.

Thank you for answering my concerns. So despite not really understanding how God worked the apostles knew that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit were one and basically believed in the Trinity without using the word Trinity? Because the word Trinity did not come until after they died? Is that what you're saying?

I have to admit I'm not 100% educated on Emperor Constantine and just went by what I was told. So Constantine converted early in his life and did not convert on his deathbed. I guess I was just told about a deathbed conversion because he didn't get baptized until way late in his reign like you said. But I was always told by skeptics that Constantine only wanted to merge the pagan religions of Rome at the time and Christianity together to form a new religion that fit into his pagan beliefs. I'm glad this is not the case. Thank you for answering my questions always.

 

[Albion]

Thank you for answering my concerns. So despite not really understanding how God worked the apostles knew that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit were one and basically believed in the Trinity without using the word Trinity? Because the word Trinity did not come until after they died? Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying that they believed in one God and also that Jesus was his Son, but how that could be explained exactly was not controversial until later, and the Holy Ghost was as mysterious as he remains to many Christians today (as we see in posts on CF).

I have to admit I'm not 100% educated on Emperor Constantine and just went by what I was told.

I know. What you wrote is very commonly read and heard, so it's not a surprise that you read or heard it said as well. But it's not factual.

So Constantine converted early in his life and did not convert on his deathbed.

Right. There is no doubt about that.

I guess I was just told about a deathbed conversion because he didn't get baptized until way late in his reign like you said.

Correct.

But I was always told by skeptics that Constantine only wanted to merge the pagan religions of Rome at the time and Christianity together to form a new religion that fit into his pagan beliefs.

That story also owes to misinterpretations of incidental events in his life, not unlike the theory that he did not convert until he was on his deathbed.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I'm saying that they believed in one God and also that Jesus was his Son, but how that could be explained exactly was not controversial until later, and the Holy Ghost was as mysterious as he remains to many Christians today (as we see in posts on CF).


I know. What you wrote is very commonly read and heard, so it's not a surprise that you read or heard it said as well. But it's not factual.


Right. There is no doubt about that.


Correct.


That story also owes to misinterpretations of incidental events in his life, not unlike the theory that he did not convert until he was on his deathbed.

So how did he start the doctrine of the Trinity then? Which has evolved into the mainstream belief of what and how God really is?

Like how did he come up with it? Because nowhere in scripture do we read that God is a Trinity. We read about the divinity of Christ in many places and even Christ said "Before Abraham was, I AM". Okay so that means Jesus was definitely divine and that explains how he could do all of those miraculous healings and signs. Jesus called God his Father and the Father of humanity. He also said that he and the Father were one. That just leaves the Holy Spirit. We go to the OT for that answer. The spirit of God did MANY things in the OT. Including indwelling important people and Kings like David and Saul. He left Saul when he turned insane. God called his spirit a part of him many many times.

So how did Constantine fit all of that information and say God is a trinity and three separate persons in one mighty God? Even if the Bible supports the Trinity by saying the above how did he come up with the word Trinity and the concept of the Trinity? Instead of just the worship and prayer to God the Father only. Which seemed to be what Christ did. Never once did he pray to the Holy Spirit. It could be because the HS was inside of him and helping him do all of the miracles and signs that Christ did. But the HS indwells us too and we still pray to him for wisdom and guidance. Why is that?

 

[Albion]

So how did Constantine fit all of that information and say God is a trinity and three separate persons in one mighty God? Even if the Bible supports the Trinity by saying the above how did he come up with the word Trinity and the concept of the Trinity?

Didn't we cover this before? It wasn't Constantine, but a church council (actually two of them).

It could be because the HS was inside of him and helping him do all of the miracles and signs that Christ did. But the HS indwells us too and we still pray to him for wisdom and guidance. Why is that?

We say "inside," but the New Testament uses a personal pronoun for the HS, so the HS is not just a force of the Father. There needs to be some way of saying all of this and the word we usually use is Trinity.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Didn't we cover this before? It wasn't Constantine, but a church council (actually two of them).


We say "inside," but the New Testament uses a personal pronoun for the HS, so the HS is not just a force of the Father. There needs to be some way of saying all of this and the word we usually use is Trinity.

Oh did we? Sorry. I didnt remember. Same question then. How did the two church councils get the doctrine of the Trinity? Why did they call it the Trinity? Just so many questions. Lol.

 

[Albion]

Oh did we? Sorry. I didnt remember. Same question then. How did the two church councils get the doctrine of the Trinity? Why did they call it the Trinity? Just so many questions. Lol.

First, it seems to me to be entirely logical to call it the Trinity (three in one). Maybe there is some other term, but I cannot imagine that there's anything wrong with this one. And the councils arrived at their conclusion through Scripture. A reading of the Nicene Creed is a way to appreciate that. The "Terms and Christian Forum Rules" here include a rendition of it along with relevant Bible verses.

 

[Neostarwcc]

First, it seems to me to be entirely logical to call it the Trinity (three in one). Maybe there is some other term, but I cannot imagine that there's anything wrong with this one. And the councils arrived at their conclusion through Scripture. A reading of the Nicene Creed is a way to appreciate that. The "Terms and Christian Forum Rules" here include a rendition of it along with relevant Bible verses.

I guess that the word trinity or triune God makes sense for a three in one Gd. I never read that section I'll read it now. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[1213]

...
Why is the worship of the father son and holy spirit not polytheism? Clearly we worship three Gods because we call the triune God three separate persons which anybody can see is the worship of three Gods. True we add three persons in one God but not a single Christian can explain just how that works. Instead we just say that's a mystery of God....

It is sad, if Christians don’t know the one and only true God.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

 

[Charles Kanyuga]

Maybe. I can see your point. But it also raises many questions. I mean throughout the NT Paul, John, Peter, and many of the apostles who saw and witnessed Christ in the flesh claimed and believed that Christ was fully and completely God in the flesh. And yet they called God the Father God as well.

But it wasn't until the 4th century after they were dead for over 300 years that the doctrine of the Trinity started in Christianity. So why did Christianity even start if the early apostles and early church were worshiping two separate gods? When all of the Jews and Gentiles that converted knew that God was one? Not two. (That's probably why most of the Jews of the time throughout today have rejected Jesus) I mean the gospels are full of what the Jews said and did to Jesus because of his "paganistic" teachings. They didn't like that he claimed to be God and that he claimed that his Father who was God also was one with himself so that means that there's two separate gods out there. So of course they didn't believe him!

And apparently the emperor who started the Trinitarian belief (Constantine) wasn't even a Christian but instead worshiped the pagan gods of Rome and wanted to combine Christianity with the Pagan religions of Rome. Apparently on his deathbed he converted. So maybe that gives a little credibility to his story and why he started the Trinity but... idk...

I dedicated myself to Christ for the rest of my life. I'm not turning back on that dedication. I just want to be able to defend my faith to others without them saying "You worship three separate gods doesn't that not smell right to you when your bible says that God is one?" I mean I have to basically reply back with "The Trinity is a mystery that nobody can comprehend." and it's like... I'm relying completely on faith here that what I believe is the truth is the truth.

True, I've been given MUCH evidence that it's the truth. But, I'd like to understand how it works. As would probably every Christian I guess. So idk what I'm complaining about.

There is only one God who is the Father over all. The scriptures are consistent on this. The source of all other in the divine is God. Take for instant Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God... the following sentence says, ...and the Spirit of God... if you go John 1 says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God. Throughout the scriptures God comes before all others in the divine (Godhead). See phrases like Spirit of God, Son of God, Word of God... the clause ...of God... means belonging to God. So the supreme person of the divine (Godhead) is our Father to whom all things belong (including Satan)... according to Paul see...one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
The subject of trinity is misrepresenting the scriptures.
Christ (Son of God) is where all who believe in God are... do you release that the bible calls Adam son of God (Luke 3:38)... i do not want to dismiss the divinity of Jesus but what the scriptures has consistently showed us is that He is our benchmark... Adam would have been (on Adam i have a whole new understanding about what he represent as compared to him just being one who failed God).

 

[Ing Bee]

Yes that was extremely helpful. I still have concerns though (See post #60).

Idk I just view myself as lost. Like maybe I am losing my faith by asking questions and starting to doubt about the Trinity...

Hey,
I appreciate your openness and honesty.

Something powerfully practical about the tri-personal divine community of love is that the Father, Son and Spirit are fundamentally interpersonally relational. In fact, Yahweh is so good at being Father, Son, Friend, Comforter, Savior, Rescuer, Redeemer, etc. that you can rest in their care.

I hope you have some good, committed friends and church family in your life who stick with you through thick and thin, up and down. Reflect on the fact that It is not possible that God is less faithful than they are. He will never leave or forsake you. 2 Timothy 2:13 says: "if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself". In Revelation 19:11, Jesus's name is "Faithful and True". In the Hebrew scriptures Yahweh is praised for his "steadfast, covenant-keeping love". This Christian life is an interpersonal connection to a real agape community of real persons who "are love" (1 John 4:8). One of the characteristics of love in 1 Corinthians 13 is that it "never fails". Therefore, you can rest in the faithful love of God, even when you are weak, uncertain, or confused.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Hey,
I appreciate your openness and honesty.

Something powerfully practical about the tri-personal divine community of love is that the Father, Son and Spirit are fundamentally interpersonally relational. In fact, Yahweh is so good at being Father, Son, Friend, Comforter, Savior, Rescuer, Redeemer, etc. that you can rest in their care.

I hope you have some good, committed friends and church family in your life who stick with you through thick and thin, up and down. Reflect on the fact that It is not possible that God is less faithful than they are. He will never leave or forsake you. 2 Timothy 2:13 says: "if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself". In Revelation 19:11, Jesus's name is "Faithful and True". In the Hebrew scriptures Yahweh is praised for his "steadfast, covenant-keeping love". This Christian life is an interpersonal connection to a real agape community of real persons who "are love" (1 John 4:8). One of the characteristics of love in 1 Corinthians 13 is that it "never fails". Therefore, you can rest in the faithful love of God, even when you are weak, uncertain, or confused.

Hello! Thank you for replying! Can I PM you about this?

 

[Ing Bee]

Hello! Thank you for replying! Can I PM you about this?

sure

 

[Neostarwcc]

sure

Okay, cool thanks! My wife and I are playing a video game together at the moment so it will be a while. Maybe tonight before I go to bed.