Is Wisdom the Holy Spirit which is masculine, or is Wisdom feminine?

[One Of The Elect]

SIRACH1
All wisdom comes from the Lord and is with Him forever.
The sands of the sea, the drops of rain, and the days of eternity- who can count them?
The height of heaven, the breadth of the earth, the abyss, and wisdom- who can search them out?
Wisdom was created before all things, and prudent understanding from eternity.
The root of wisdom- to whom has it been revealed? HER clever devices- who knows them?
There is One who is wise, greatly to be feared, sitting upon His throne. The Lord Himself
created Wisdom; He saw her and apportioned her, he poured her forth upon all His works.
She dwells with all flesh according to his gift, and He supplied her to those who love Him.

I was told by some here Wisdom is the Holy Spirit. But, the Holy Spirit is of the Triune God, therefore is masculine and is God, know one created God!
It says in this Sirach 1 she was created by God, the first of His works. So this means she was created before anything else in creation. But she is poured out upon men according to their gifts.
Wisdom is obviously a she. Proverbs 9 Wisdom has built Her house. Here again Wisdom
is referred to as SHE.
My husband pointed something out to me in Proverbs9:5
it says, "Come eat of my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed." Some bibles
have mingled. What is the wine? Is it the blood of Christ? And in whom does the mixing and mingling take place?
In whom did Christ become flesh. Was there transfer of DNA?
Was Christ mixed with Mary?
not that DNA matters but, did he take on Mary's flesh to be flesh and Divine?
Wisdom of Solomon
Chpt.8 I loved her and sought her from my youth, and I desired to take her for my bride, and I became enamored of her beauty. She glorifies her noble birth by living with God and the Lord of all loves her. For she is an initiate in the knowledge of God, and associate in His works.
Does this mean Wisdom should be married to the soul of every God fearing person especially a Jew?
In Proverbs 8:30 then was I beside Him like a master workman and I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always.
Can Wisdom be the Holy Spirit? NO!
Is Wisdom given by the Holy Spirit? YES!
If she was created to be at the Words side, would she have to be at His side on earth when he was Incarnated? And if she is apportioned upon man according to His gifts, was she apportioned upon Mary fully?
Is this what full of grace is?
Would wisdom have to accompany Christ who is the Word on earth, he fashioned her, she is the first of His works. Would He give her fully to Mary?
Was Mary the first of His works of Christianity?
Could Mary be the embodiment of Wisdom?
Could these words be prophecies concerning Wisdom, from Sirach, and Solomon
Why or why not?
An after thought: If wisdom is apportioned to men according to their gifts,
What was the greatest gift given to anyone? And in proportion to that gift
which is the fullness of life- God, would the proportion of Wisdom have to be in full measure, considering the gift?



​

 

[YesMe]

I am one who prays to God for wisdom, in fact, this is the only thing I ask for myself, but I want it so that I can be of great help in this world.My spirit desires badly wisdom, it's like the most precious thing one can find in this universe, who does not need it? But, yes, there is but, if God gives you much, it will ask from you much, I am well aware.

About your questions, I don't really know, I've never thought about this thing, but if I reason a bit, wisdom may come from the Holy Spirit, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God, is how God acts, God, the Father, is the one who keeps everything in place, and the Son is the perfect representation of the invisible Father.We know that Jesus was the one who created everything, He started creation, but with Him, there was the Holy Spirit and also, the Father, being one.From your wrods above, it says that "wisdom was created before all things", so wisdom is also part of creation.God, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are eternal, outside of creation, they are one.

 

[One Of The Elect]

I am one who prays to God for wisdom, in fact, this is the only thing I ask for myself, but I want it so that I can be of great help in this world.My spirit desires badly wisdom, it's like the most precious thing one can find in this universe, who does not need it? But, yes, there is but, if God gives you much, it will ask from you much, I am well aware.

About your questions, I don't really know, I've never thought about this thing, but if I reason a bit, wisdom may come from the Holy Spirit, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God, is how God acts, God, the Father, is the one who keeps everything in place, and the Son is the perfect representation of the invisible Father.We know that Jesus was the one who created everything, He started creation, but with Him, there was the Holy Spirit and also, the Father, being one.From your wrods above, it says that "wisdom was created before all things", so wisdom is also part of creation.God, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are eternal, outside of creation, they are one.

I did not reveal that wisdom is created, God did! I simply believe what He says.

 

[YesMe]

I know, that was my point.Sorry for not being clear.

 

[Open Heart]

The Holy Spirit can be personified as either feminine or masculine, but I think the feminine is more apt: comforting i.e. is a nurturing, feminine trait. Wisdom is absolutely personified as female in the Bible.

 

[tz620q]

I think that as far as Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon are concerned, the Jewish authors were adopting the Greek personification of Wisdom as being feminine. There is also an effort in those books to tie Wisdom to the eternal Word and hence to Christ. So to say that Wisdom, as an entity or a person, is the Holy Spirit is not true to the text, which did not comprehend a Trinity at that time. Your supposition that wisdom is a human attribute is certainly attested; but I would see that as being one of the attributes of the eternal Father's image that humans were endowed with. To extend this to Christ as the personification of Wisdom and the fullness of the revelation of God the Father would beg the question why Christ was male. I think a better supposition would be that before the incarnation, Christ was neither male, nor female; but existed in the Trinity without sexual form. This keeps us from trying to create Christ in the image of certain human attributes that could be identified as more prominent in one sex or another.

As far as Wisdom being personified in Mary, of course it was. That personification is Christ. Did Mary share in that Wisdom? How could she not have? She cared for this person, taught Him, loved Him, listened to Him. To suppose that Christ received wisdom from Mary is not a stretch. We learn what it is to be human from our parents and surely Jesus learned some of this from his parents.

I am not sure I have addressed your main theme; but these are my thoughts.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

IMO Wisdom is neither Man or Woman - it is in fact a child

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Roland Murphy, one of the major scholars of OT Wisdom Literature, argues in his book "Wisdom and Eros in Proverbs 1-9" a catholic biblical quarterly (1988)(page 603) that there is a double movement between the literal and metaphorical female figures, so that "sexual fidelity is also a symbol of one's attachment to Lady Wisdom"

It sounds rather Fruedian to me.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

A Trusting Obedient Child


At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

 

[Major1]

SIRACH1
All wisdom comes from the Lord and is with Him forever.
The sands of the sea, the drops of rain, and the days of eternity- who can count them?
The height of heaven, the breadth of the earth, the abyss, and wisdom- who can search them out?
Wisdom was created before all things, and prudent understanding from eternity.
The root of wisdom- to whom has it been revealed? HER clever devices- who knows them?
There is One who is wise, greatly to be feared, sitting upon His throne. The Lord Himself
created Wisdom; He saw her and apportioned her, he poured her forth upon all His works.
She dwells with all flesh according to his gift, and He supplied her to those who love Him.

I was told by some here Wisdom is the Holy Spirit. But, the Holy Spirit is of the Triune God, therefore is masculine and is God, know one created God!
It says in this Sirach 1 she was created by God, the first of His works. So this means she was created before anything else in creation. But she is poured out upon men according to their gifts.
Wisdom is obviously a she. Proverbs 9 Wisdom has built Her house. Here again Wisdom
is referred to as SHE.
My husband pointed something out to me in Proverbs9:5
it says, "Come eat of my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed." Some bibles
have mingled. What is the wine? Is it the blood of Christ? And in whom does the mixing and mingling take place?
In whom did Christ become flesh. Was there transfer of DNA?
Was Christ mixed with Mary?
not that DNA matters but, did he take on Mary's flesh to be flesh and Divine?
Wisdom of Solomon
Chpt.8 I loved her and sought her from my youth, and I desired to take her for my bride, and I became enamored of her beauty. She glorifies her noble birth by living with God and the Lord of all loves her. For she is an initiate in the knowledge of God, and associate in His works.
Does this mean Wisdom should be married to the soul of every God fearing person especially a Jew?
In Proverbs 8:30 then was I beside Him like a master workman and I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always.
Can Wisdom be the Holy Spirit? NO!
Is Wisdom given by the Holy Spirit? YES!
If she was created to be at the Words side, would she have to be at His side on earth when he was Incarnated? And if she is apportioned upon man according to His gifts, was she apportioned upon Mary fully?
Is this what full of grace is?
Would wisdom have to accompany Christ who is the Word on earth, he fashioned her, she is the first of His works. Would He give her fully to Mary?
Was Mary the first of His works of Christianity?
Could Mary be the embodiment of Wisdom?
Could these words be prophecies concerning Wisdom, from Sirach, and Solomon
Why or why not?
An after thought: If wisdom is apportioned to men according to their gifts,
What was the greatest gift given to anyone? And in proportion to that gift
which is the fullness of life- God, would the proportion of Wisdom have to be in full measure, considering the gift?



​

1st of all your quote is from a book in the Apocrypha and as such it is not Biblical in any way whatsoever.

In the Bible, Solomon uses the feminine in describing Wisdom.

The most basic knowledge of Biblical symbolism reveals that any reference to the female gender in scripture points us to the head of that gender. The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, and "the head of Christ is God". Now which of these is 'wisdom'?

'Wisdom' certainly is not the woman, because her head is the man. Wisdom is certainly is not the man because his head is Christ. But since God "by wisdom founded the earth", and since wisdom "is a tree of life unto them that lay hold upon her", and since since "the head of Christ is God", then it only follows that it was by Christ that the earth was founded, and it is Christ who is a tree of life to those who lay hold on Him, and it is Christ, who was with God "from the beginning. It is only Christ that can be this 'wisdom', because it is Christ who we are told, was used of God to create all things
Why is Wisdom Female?

 

[Mark_Sam]

The Wisdom Books (Sirach, Book of Wisdom, Proverbs ...) were written before the full trinitarian revelation was given in Christ and the New Testament, so one should not read to much into Wisdom personified being feminine. In both Greek and Hebrew, "wisdom" is a feminine noun, so talking about wisdom as "she" in these languages is not only natural, but also grammatically correct (at least, that's the case in all the gendered languages I know).

In some contexts, Wisdom could be interpreted as the eternal Word. In other contexts, it is a trait of the Godhead. And yet in other contexts, it is a gift given by God to man. And Sirach 24:18/24 ("I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.") has been analogically applied to the virgin Mary, since she is the mother of Christ, He who is Love, Wisdom and our only Hope (emphasis on 'analogically').

I like to think of the Wisdom Books as man's pondering the true nature of God before the New Testament revelation. In the same way that some ancient Jewish teachers saw a certain "threeness" in God based on the Shema: "The Lord, our God, the Lord is one" (Deut 6:4) - there are three divine names (Lord, God, Lord), yet they are one.

 

[RDKirk]

Wisdom is not the Holy Spirit, wisdom is a product of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Major1]

Wisdom is not the Holy Spirit, wisdom is a product of the Holy Spirit.

We have a WINNER!

 

[Major1]

The Wisdom Books (Sirach, Book of Wisdom, Proverbs ...) were written before the full trinitarian revelation was given in Christ and the New Testament, so one should not read to much into Wisdom personified being feminine. In both Greek and Hebrew, "wisdom" is a feminine noun, so talking about wisdom as "she" in these languages is not only natural, but also grammatically correct (at least, that's the case in all the gendered languages I know).

In some contexts, Wisdom could be interpreted as the eternal Word. In other contexts, it is a trait of the Godhead. And yet in other contexts, it is a gift given by God to man. And Sirach 24:18/24 ("I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.") has been analogically applied to the virgin Mary, since she is the mother of Christ, He who is Love, Wisdom and our only Hope (emphasis on 'analogically').

I like to think of the Wisdom Books as man's pondering the true nature of God before the New Testament revelation. In the same way that some ancient Jewish teachers saw a certain "threeness" in God based on the Shema: "The Lord, our God, the Lord is one" (Deut 6:4) - there are three divine names (Lord, God, Lord), yet they are one.

The books of the Apocrypha are not the inspired Word of God and were rejected about 1700 years ago for a reason.

 

[Mark_Sam]

The books of the Apocrypha are not the inspired Word of God and were rejected about 1700 years ago for a reason.

Well, my Church accepts the Deuterocanonical Books (Books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, and the Greek additions to Daniel and Esther) as canonical and the inspired word of God. As do the Eastern Orthodox Churches. But that is a whole other topic.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

I am one who prays to God for wisdom, in fact, this is the only thing I ask for myself, but I want it so that I can be of great help in this world.My spirit desires badly wisdom, it's like the most precious thing one can find in this universe, who does not need it? But, yes, there is but, if God gives you much, it will ask from you much, I am well aware.

About your questions, I don't really know, I've never thought about this thing, but if I reason a bit, wisdom may come from the Holy Spirit, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God, is how God acts, God, the Father, is the one who keeps everything in place, and the Son is the perfect representation of the invisible Father.We know that Jesus was the one who created everything, He started creation, but with Him, there was the Holy Spirit and also, the Father, being one.From your wrods above, it says that "wisdom was created before all things", so wisdom is also part of creation.God, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are eternal, outside of creation, they are one.

This puts a different light on it.....
"Third, logos was Wisdom. Hebrew sages of old were part of a movement that emphasized gaining wisdom through close observation of the natural world. See, for example, Proverbs 6:6-11, about observing the behavior of ants in order to live well. But these sages were not inventing wisdom; they were discovering it. For Wisdom was personified as a woman co-creating with God from the very beginning. Read her exquisite poem in Proverbs 8:22-31. Before all of God’s creative acts, “I was beside him as a master worker, and I was daily his delight…” (v 30)."

 

[Major1]

Well, my Church accepts the Deuterocanonical Books (Books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, and the Greek additions to Daniel and Esther) as canonical and the inspired word of God. As do the Eastern Orthodox Churches. But that is a whole other topic.

Yes it is. If you would like to start a thread on that I would be glad to explain to you why those books are not in the Bible and some are in fact Occultic and some Satanic.

 

[Major1]

This puts a different light on it.....
"Third, logos was Wisdom. Hebrew sages of old were part of a movement that emphasized gaining wisdom through close observation of the natural world. See, for example, Proverbs 6:6-11, about observing the behavior of ants in order to live well. But these sages were not inventing wisdom; they were discovering it. For Wisdom was personified as a woman co-creating with God from the very beginning. Read her exquisite poem in Proverbs 8:22-31. Before all of God’s creative acts, “I was beside him as a master worker, and I was daily his delight…” (v 30)."

Before commenting on your post, allow me to ask you if I understood your comment.

You said.........
"For Wisdom was personified as a woman co-creating with God from the very beginning. Read her exquisite poem in Proverbs 8:22-31."

Are you in fact saying that there was a woman who was a co-creator with God?

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Before commenting on your post, allow me to ask you if I understood your comment.

You said.........
"For Wisdom was personified as a woman co-creating with God from the very beginning. Read her exquisite poem in Proverbs 8:22-31."

Are you in fact saying that there was a woman who was a co-creator with God?

I am not saying any thing. I am quoting...
But that would appear to be what it is saying.
I am as surprised as you would seem to be.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Yes it is. If you would like to start a thread on that I would be glad to explain to you why those books are not in the Bible and some are in fact Occultic and some Satanic.

Then you migt be interested to learn that both the Anglican and cattholic Churches also take some of their cycle of readings fom the apocrapher.
While it is not used to arrive at church dogma, the books are considered useful for instruction. And certainly not occultic or Satanic. A claim more often made againt Revelation. And the apocrapher is authorised for inclusion in the Bible. I have both a KJV and a NRSV with it in.