Is water Baptism essential for salvation?
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TheSeabass
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2 Thessalonians 1:8 those that do not obey the gospel will be lost.
Paul said in 1 Cor 15:3,4 the gospel is "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
Since the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, so how does one obey these historical events of a death, burial and a resurrection?
Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
'Form' means a type, a pattern, example. Wood forms are used to pour a concrete driveway, the forms are not the driveway itself but a pattern. Like in Romans 6:3-7 when one is water baptized the old man of sin dies, is buried in a watery grave then resurrected from that watery grave to walk in newness of life. So water baptism is a form of the gospel, the death burial and resurrection of Christ and no salvation without obedience to this form of the gospel. You use the word "identify" instead of "form' yet no salvation without obeying/identifying, obeying that form of doctrine.
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If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe and not when we get baptized. Otherwise, we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died. This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized.
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John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism, but that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism is not necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother's womb. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he cannot enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible; and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.
Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is often used to say that baptism is part of salvation, but we know from other scriptures that it is not, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, "repent and be baptized."
Also, please notice that there is no mention of faith in Acts 2:38. If this verse is a description of what is necessary for salvation, then why is faith not mentioned? Simply saying it is implied isn't good enough. Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation but for covenant obedience, which is why the next verse says that the promise is for their children as well.
1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves, but the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "Baptism corresponds to what?" The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." (NASB).
Some think that the baptism corresponds to the Ark because it was the Ark that saved them--not the floodwaters. This is a possibility, but one of the problems is that this interpretation does not seem to stand grammatically since the antecedent of Baptism is most probably in reference to the water--not the Ark.
But, water did not save Noah. This is why Peter excludes the issue of water baptism being the thing that saves us because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Peter says that it is not the application of water that saves us but a pledge of the good conscience. Therefore, baptism here most probably represents the breaking away of the old sinful life and entrance into the new life with Christ--in the same way that the flood waters in Noah's time was the destruction of the sinful way and, once through it, known as entering into the new way. Also, Peter says that the baptism is an appeal of a good conscience before God. Notice that this is dealing with faith. It seems that Peter is defining real baptism as the act of faith.
Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved; or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously, it is the blood of Jesus, and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.
Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ, it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously, we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage. And that is what it is here. The figure of baptism represents the reality of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It is a covenant sign for us. Remember, a covenant sign represents the covenant. The covenant sign of baptism represents the covenant of grace which is that covenant between God and the Christian where we receive the grace of God through the person of Christ by means of his sacrifice.
Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.
Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.
Some say that water here means baptism, but that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism is not necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother's womb. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he cannot enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible; and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.
Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is often used to say that baptism is part of salvation, but we know from other scriptures that it is not, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, "repent and be baptized."
Also, please notice that there is no mention of faith in Acts 2:38. If this verse is a description of what is necessary for salvation, then why is faith not mentioned? Simply saying it is implied isn't good enough. Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation but for covenant obedience, which is why the next verse says that the promise is for their children as well.
1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves, but the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "Baptism corresponds to what?" The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." (NASB).
Some think that the baptism corresponds to the Ark because it was the Ark that saved them--not the floodwaters. This is a possibility, but one of the problems is that this interpretation does not seem to stand grammatically since the antecedent of Baptism is most probably in reference to the water--not the Ark.
But, water did not save Noah. This is why Peter excludes the issue of water baptism being the thing that saves us because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Peter says that it is not the application of water that saves us but a pledge of the good conscience. Therefore, baptism here most probably represents the breaking away of the old sinful life and entrance into the new life with Christ--in the same way that the flood waters in Noah's time was the destruction of the sinful way and, once through it, known as entering into the new way. Also, Peter says that the baptism is an appeal of a good conscience before God. Notice that this is dealing with faith. It seems that Peter is defining real baptism as the act of faith.
Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved; or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously, it is the blood of Jesus, and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.
Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ, it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously, we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage. And that is what it is here. The figure of baptism represents the reality of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It is a covenant sign for us. Remember, a covenant sign represents the covenant. The covenant sign of baptism represents the covenant of grace which is that covenant between God and the Christian where we receive the grace of God through the person of Christ by means of his sacrifice.
Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.
Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.
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TheSeabass
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(1) NT faith includes baptism:
Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet 3:21------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then faith must include baptism.
(2) deathbed salvation is not taught under the NT. It is an idea by faith onlyists in attempt to circumvent what Christ required to be saved.
(3) all babies are born innocent and without sin therefore not candidates for baptism.
(4) as I posted in my last post in this thread, one must obey the gospel or be lost 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and water baptism is that "form of doctrine" (Romans 6:17) by which one obeys the gospel and justified/freed from sin.
Rom 5:1---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Rom 6:17------obey from heart form of doctrine(baptism)>>>>>>justifies
Again, just one way to be save, no alternatives, then faith must incude obeying from heart that form of doctrine (baptism).
Anyway one slices it, baptism is necessary to being saved/justified/freed from sin.
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Yes, baptism is necessary to salvation, but not water baptism - Spirit baptism. I would suggest you pray to the Father about this because you are off the path, my friend.
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TheSeabass
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John's baptism was for remission of sins and Nicodemus should have been baptized with it to be born again as others were John 3:23.
Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 13:14----------spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy spirit++++++++laver of water>>>>>saved
The bible does not contradict itself so each verse says the same thing and it is very clear all three refer to water baptism, that from of doctrine in obeying he gospel, the way one is justified, the one baptism of Ep 4:5.
PropheticTimes said:
The same people Peter commanded to repent are the same ones he commanded to be baptized so both imperatives equally apply to all regardless of the singular" or "plural". Even if baptism in this verse was not for remission of sins, the simple fact it is commanded makes it essential, essential as the imperative to repent. The order of the verse has repentance BEFORE baptism and baptism BEFORE remission of sins. The "and" ties repentance to baptism making them inseparable and both come BEFORE remission of sins and no amount of grammatical gymnastics can ever change that.
Repentance is gift only in the sense God has allowed man that avenue to salvation.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The pronoun "you" I underlined is plural. So Peter is saying you all repent and each of you all be baptized. Therefore Peter is using a plural "you all" for both repentance and baptism and your argument does not really exist.
Peter is using precise language. You all repent and each of you be baptized shows there is no such thing as proxy baptism, each person must obey the command to be baptized himself/herself.
ProphecticTimes said:
Peter is using an OT type to NT anti-type connection.
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
The KJV using "like figure" or antitype which means a mirror reflection of the type.
The OT type: saved by water (flood)
NT antitype: saved by water (baptism)
Note how the NT antitype is a mirror reflection of the OT type. They were saved in the ark but Peter is NOT talking about being saved in the ark but "SAVED BY WATER" verse 20. So the ark is not part of the context here and has nothing to do with the type to antitype Peter is making here.
Acts 2:38---------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>for remission of sin/saves
1Pet 3:21---------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves
So Peter is talking about the same baptism in both verses, water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission. Peter said baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2 Peter convicted his Jewish listeners of their sins, pricking their hearts (conscience) so much so they asked what must they do? Peter's ANSWER so they could have a good conscience towards God was to be baptized for remission of sins.
PropheticTimes said:
--John said Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood Revelation 1:5
--Christ shed His blood in His death John 19:34
--And it is water baptism that puts one in Christ's death (Rom 6:3-5) where that blood was shd that washes away sins.
Back in Acts 2:21 Peter quoted a prophecy of Joel "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." This was fulfilled in v38:
call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sin
Just one way to be saved so calling on the name of the Lord means to repent and be baptized. Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord says to do (Luke 6:46) in repenting Luke 13:3 and being baptized Mark 16:16.
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TheSeabass
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Already dealt with Rom 6 and how obeying that form of doctrine is obeying the gospel in being water baptized. Again, note the order of events in Rom 6:17,18:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sin/justified
Obedience BEFORE justification
PropheticTimes said:
Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 13:14----------spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy spirit++++++++laver of water>>>>>saved
This washing (loutron) or laver of water of Tts 3:5 is a clear reference to water baptism a baptismal font. I just showed earlier Christ's blood that washes away sin was shed in His death and it is water baptism is how one gains entrance into the death of Christ (Rom 6:3-5) where the blood then cleanses away all sins.
PropheticTimes said:
Water baptism is how one puts on Christ. I like the translation you used for it used "clothed" which is what the Greek means, like putting on a coat. Once I put on the coat then I am in the coat = once baptized then I am "IN CHRIST" for salvation cannot be found outside of Christ and nothing but water baptism puts one "in Christ'
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TheSeabass
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Water baptism (Christ's Great Commission)
commanded to all
saves/remits sins
how disciples are made
lasts till the end of the world
Baptism with the Holy SPirit
not commanded, only promised to the Apostles Acts 1:1-5
does not save/remit sins
not how disciples are made
was fulfilled by Christ and did not last till the end of the world
In an earlier post, I showed those that do not obey the gospel will be lost 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
The gospel is the death burial & resurrection of Christ 1 Cor 15:3-4
Water baptism a form (Rom 6:17) of the death burial & resurrection of Christ (Rom 6:3-5) one must obey to be saved.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is NOT that form of doctrine one obeys to be then freed from sins.
Water baptism is.
Night and day, black and white, left and right major differences.
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Chap. Bell
We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and without any works. GOD doesn't need any help (Baptism) to secure our salvation. HE secured our salvation 2,000
years ago on Mt. Calvary Cross. When Christ cried out in a loud voice: "It is finished." Meaning salvation is completely secured, void any work coming from mankind.
Salvation always proceed baptism. Meaning you are saved prior to Baptism.
1. The Scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with baptism as a necessary to one's salvation.
2. Lastly, You should always debate the issue at hand, not the debater. This is not Christ like!
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The commandment has more to do with disciplemakers then it does converts. No you don't need it but you don't need a marriage ceremony to be married, but chances are, your going to want one.
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TheSeabass
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But no Bible verse says anything remotely to this. This maybe man's philosophy but has no biblical basis.
Seymore Bell said:
--God chose water baptism as the point where sins would be remitted, man over the centuries has tried to change that.
--when Christ said "It is finished" He was referring to His work He was sent to earth to do. John 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life No work - no everlasting life.
--verses as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 have the order of baptism BEFORE salvation/remission of sins
--why did you make the personal attack against me instead of dealing with the issue at hand?
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faroukfarouk
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All born again believers can say: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12.13)
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There was no personal attack on my end. I felt attacked when you stated in a roundabout way that I am unsaved. My very personal and intimate walk with Jesus proves your interpretation of Scripture to be wrong. My point was that you should perhaps not be so quick to tell one of God's children who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them that they are unsaved. I am certain that the Lord will take that up with you at a later date.
Blessings!
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TheSeabass
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My position is and always will be if one is not water baptized for the remission of sins he cannot be saved as the bible teaches...regardless of how one feels about it. My faith is not so shallow that I will change it on a whim over how other people feel. Besides, you failed to prove that water baptism is not essential, so there is no reason for me to change what I believe.There was no personal attack on my end. I felt attacked when you stated in a roundabout way that I am unsaved. My very personal and intimate walk with Jesus proves your interpretation of Scripture to be wrong. My point was that you should perhaps not be so quick to tell one of God's children who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them that they are unsaved. I am certain that the Lord will take that up with you at a later date.
Blessings!
I can easily say you attacked me with your denial of the necessity of water baptism...that a two way street. This is how it goes on forums as this.
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You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. That is not attacking, it is voicing opinions, which is how it goes on forums such as this.
Blessings!
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