Is water Baptism essential for salvation?

[TheSeabass]

All that above? Seriously, it's not that complex. Sounds like you're going around the block a few times to present your doctrine. I'll pass.

You posted:..."By no coincidence water baptism is the means that gives us access into Christ's death"

If you say so.

What I posted was not complex but facts given us by the bible.

Do you deny Rev 1:5 that Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood?
Do you deny Christ shed his blood in His death?
Do you deny baptism is how one gains access into the death of Christ where that shed blood is found?

No coincidence baptism puts one into the death of Christ where He shed His blood for it all fits together perfectly. The man made idea of faith only creates a whole host of biblical, logical contradictions when added to the bible.

 

[Archivist]

So, I gotta figure this out. What responsibility is there on this third party person? This is not a family affair. It's between Christ and the person.

Show me some scripture where it says that I am responsible for the baptism of someone that I witnessed to.

I, through whatever means, lead someone to the lord and they don't get baptized and it is my fault?

How does that work. The person dies, stands before Jesus and says "well, George didn't see to it that I got baptized"? and Jesus would say "ya, you're right, go ahead, I'll damn him when they get here for not doing their job"??????

But Jesus wouldn't say that because baptism isn't required for salvation.

 

[-57]

Jesus does not alone chose who will or will not be a Christian as He did with the office of an Apostle.
Men use their free will to chose to be a Christian or not.

Men don't have the ability to choose. That's the part where you puff yourself up....and pat yourself on the back for choosing Jesus.
Why did you choose Jesus? Did you figure it out? Did you come from the right education? Did you hear a good preacher?
The answer is God gave you the ability to believe. You were quickened. Regenerated. Your stoney dead heart was made alive by God. Climb down from your high horse and give all the credit for your salvation to God.

 

[TheSeabass]

The Bible doesn't tell us why one person is elect and another is not. It does tell us the decision is made before were even born.

Sure the bible tells us: O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E to God's will. I gave an example of two kings.

Calvinism leaves one in the dark not know if he is of the elct or nt but God has not left us the dark.

I have shown you before if obedience determines our salvation....then no one is saved. That theology is bad....works based.

I have posted verses as Romans 6:17-18 and Hebrews 5:9 many times with both show OBEDIENCE being the reason one is saved/justified. Show me the verse that says 'disobey the will of God and thou shalt be saved" or "do nothing and thou shalt be saved".

Yes, we all understand the symbolic nature of baptism.

--Since the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4
--Since obedience to the gospel is required to be saved else one is lost 2 Thessalonians 1:8
--Then when one is water baptized, then he is in a form dying with Christ, buried with Christ and raised up with Christ. This is obedience to the gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) and salvation is not possible without it.

(By the way for others posting here, where does the bible teach that baptism with the Holy Spirit is that "form of doctrine" one obeys to be freed from sin? That baptism with the Holy Spirit is that form of the death burial and resurrection of Christ? Nowhere so that baptism, for many reasons, is not the "one baptism" of Eph 4:5 that saves)

 

[-57]

What I posted was not complex but facts given us by the bible.

Sure, the facts are there....but you mistranslate and misapply the facts. You give yourself too much credit when it comes to your salvation.

Do you deny Rev 1:5 that Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood?

nope....but your baptism is required chart seems to. It outright claims water washes away your sin.

Do you deny baptism is how one gains access into the death of Christ where that shed blood is found?

Water baptism...yes. I deny hat..... Now if I were a JW or LDS I might agree with you.

No coincidence baptism puts one into the death of Christ where He shed His blood for it all fits together perfectly. The man made idea of faith only creates a whole host of biblical, logical contradictions when added to the bible.

Man made idea? Really?
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Did you notice faith is a gift? It is not from yourself. It is from God. Not of boastful works?
.......and, did you notice baptism is once again omitted?

 

[Albion]

...
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
If you are going and bringing the gospel - it is YOUR responsibility to baptize, teach and disciple those new believers.

This is bizarre--completely unique, from all that I know, in these discussions on baptism. Out of curiosity, Is there some church that teaches that if someone accepts Christ in your presence, you ought to take him by the hand and head to the nearest bathtub? Or does everyone understand that an adult convert needs to seek out a minister and a church?

 

[TheSeabass]

Men don't have the ability to choose. That's the part where you puff yourself up....and pat yourself on the back for choosing Jesus.
Why did you choose Jesus? Did you figure it out? Did you come from the right education? Did you hear a good preacher?
The answer is God gave you the ability to believe. You were quickened. Regenerated. Your stoney dead heart was made alive by God. Climb down from your high horse and give all the credit for your salvation to God.

Sure men can choose - Joshua 24:15.

If one can believe only if God gives him the ability, then GOD is culpable for the unbelieving lost. Therefore on judgment day men will have an excuse (men will not be 'without excuse Rom 1 :20) for not believing for God failed to give them the ability to believe.

Mt 8:26 "And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm."

If one can believe only if God enables him then why unjustly condemn these disciple for not having sufficient faith when it was totally out of their control? Jesus should have been critical of God for God's failure in giving them the sufficient faith they lacked.

 

[-57]

Sure the bible tells us: O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E to God's will. I gave an example of two kings.

clap, clap, clap.....but it had nothing to do with personal salvation. You're trying to justify one argument with non-related text. It's pretty easy to see through.

This is obedience to the gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) and salvation is not possible without it.

Let me say this agin to you...and real loud this time....the Bible IS FULL OF COMMANDMENTS THAT YOU CHOOSE TO NOT FOLLOW. Do you understand that?
You JUST TOLD ME "salvation is not possible" without obedience. YET, YOU ARE NOT AS OBEDIENT....as you think you are. Therefor, using your own theology...YOU, condemn yourself to Hell.
Now, perhaps obedience to you ONLY refers to baptism.

 

[Dave-W]

This is bizarre--completely unique, from all that I know, in these discussions on baptism. Out of curiosity, Is there some church that teaches that if someone accepts Christ in your presence, you ought to take him by the hand and head to the nearest bathtub? Or does everyone understand that an adult convert needs to seek out a minister and a church?

Yes it is unique.

And I am not aware of any church or group that has proposed this. It came about by me over the last several years looking at all the basic doctrines from a different perspective, trying to understand what the scriptures are actually saying; and just as importantly, what they are NOT saying. A pastor was making a statement last year on Matt 28 great commission, and comparing the "GO" in verse 19 to the "as you walk along the way" from Deut 6.7.

Realizing that I had looked at that part incorrectly for a number of years I examined every other part of that statement; and realized that the command to baptize was only listed here, to the apostles. Every other instance was either an evangelist discharging this command or a description of what baptism is and does.

While I have never held to a salvic function for baptism, now I have a crystal clear understanding of WHY that is so.

 

[TheSeabass]

Sure, the facts are there....but you mistranslate and misapply the facts. You give yourself too much credit when it comes to your salvation.

Straw man argument. The bible teaches man has a role in his own salvation, but that salvation would never been possible without Christ. So all credit goes to Christ that man even has had savlation made available to him.

Luke 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

If one is not doing what God commanded he is derelict in his duty. I obey God, I do my duty but I am still an unprofitable servant in need of grace. So there is no credit on my part at all.

nope....but your baptism is required chart seems to. It outright claims water washes away your sin.

Water baptism...yes. I deny hat..... Now if I were a JW or LDS I might agree with you.

Another straw man. It's the blood of Christ that washed away sin but it only happens when one "obeys that form of doctrine" in submitting to water baptism where one dies with Christ, buried with Christ and raised up together with Christ from that watery grace.

Man made idea? Really?
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Did you notice faith is a gift? It is not from yourself. It is from God. Not of boastful works?
.......and, did you notice baptism is once again omitted?

I do not see "faith only" in Weph 2:8,9.

"faith" and "faith only" are two totally different things.

Secondly, salvation is the gift of Eph 2:8 not faith.

Is Faith the Gift of Ephesians 2:8?
The passage cited above (Eph. 2:8), as a proof-text for the idea that “faith” is strictly a “gift,” does not, in fact, teach that idea at all. The text reads as follows:

“For by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of your selves, it is the gift of God ....”

There is no specifically-stated antecedent for “gift” in this context. However, it is to be inferred. The gift is the salvation that is implied by the verb “saved.”

“For by grace are you saved through faith; and this not of yourselves, it [the salvation] is gift of God....”

Grammatically speaking, there is no agreement between “faith” and “gift.” Faith (pisteos) in the Greek Testament is a feminine form, while “gift” (doron) is neuter gender. The “gift” is not “faith.”

Some have objected to this argument, contending that the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine, thus it cannot be the antecedent of “gift.” While it is true that the Greek noun, “salvation,” is a feminine form, the verbal construction found here used in connection with a neuter pronoun (“this”) requires that the antecedent must also be neuter, thus, “salvation” [understood], not “faith” (see: Lockhart, 86; Cottrell, 200).

Professor Arthur Patzia of Fuller Theological Seminary, who believes, “theologically” speaking, that faith is a gift, acknowledges that “the Greek sentence [Eph. 2:8] does not permit such an identification, because the two words differ grammatically” (185).

Even John Calvin interpreted the “gift” of this passage as “salvation,” and not faith (144). This, of course, is in perfect harmony with Paul’s declaration elsewhere that the “gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23).
Is Faith the Gift of Ephesians 2:8?

A more in depth analysis of Eph 2:8 showing salvation is the theme not faith:
Is Faith a Gift from God?
Question & Answer: Faith a Gift from God?


Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God and not a random direct gift God gives to some and not others thereby showing respect of persons.

 

[TheSeabass]

clap, clap, clap.....but it had nothing to do with personal salvation. You're trying to justify one argument with non-related text. It's pretty easy to see through.

It proves God's mercy is based upon obedience, as seen all through the bible.

In Rom 11 - who are God's people in this passage that God has not cast away?
The obedient in both the OT and now in this present time in the NT verses 4-5.

Let me say this agin to you...and real loud this time....the Bible IS FULL OF COMMANDMENTS THAT YOU CHOOSE TO NOT FOLLOW. Do you understand that?
You JUST TOLD ME "salvation is not possible" without obedience. YET, YOU ARE NOT AS OBEDIENT....as you think you are. Therefor, using your own theology...YOU, condemn yourself to Hell.
Now, perhaps obedience to you ONLY refers to baptism.

I am not obligated to follow all the commands of the bible, specifically none of the commands of the OT for Christ took it all out of the way nailing it to His cross, Col 2; Eph 2 rendering it of no effect. We today are obligated to obey God's NT gospel. Show me one example under the NT gospel were one was saved by doing nothing thereby saved by DISobeying the will of God

 

[-57]

Sure men can choose - Joshua 24:15.

Should we not choose the Lord everyday? Your disobedience...as well as mine...shows we often don't choose the lord as much as we should. Your theology condemns us to hell for disobedience.

If one can believe only if God gives him the ability, then GOD is culpable for the unbelieving lost. Therefore on judgment day men will have an excuse (men will not be 'without excuse Rom 1 :20) for not believing for God failed to give them the ability to believe.

That's either a crazy or misunderstood position you present. I'm thinking misunderstood.
...As you well know, every single human who has ever lived or will live stands guilty before God. Every human that has lived or will ever live deserves justice...which is separation from God. (hell).....All men sin and fall short.
To some people God has mercy. Or will you now present a few bible verses that tell us God has no mercy?
Remember God would have been just if He didn't save a single person. Or, do you also deny that? You seem to when you called God a failure for not having mercy on all people.....are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole?

 

[Albion]

Yes it is unique.

And I am not aware of any church or group that has proposed this. It came about by me over the last several years looking at all the basic doctrines from a different perspective, trying to understand what the scriptures are actually saying; and just as importantly, what they are NOT saying.

OK, I appreciate the response.

 

[-57]

Secondly, salvation is the gift of Eph 2:8 not faith.

All three, faith, grace and salvation are a gift. How else are we justified?

Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God and not a random direct gift God gives to some and not others thereby showing respect of persons.

Then explain why some people get it while others don't?

 

[-57]

I am not obligated to follow all the commands of the bible, specifically none of the commands of the OT for Christ took it all out of the way nailing it to His cross, Col 2; Eph 2 rendering it of no effect. We today are obligated to obey God's NT gospel. Show me one example under the NT gospel were one was saved by doing nothing thereby saved by DISobeying the will of God

I can present every instance of salvation. EVERY INSTANCE.

Now you sort of added a special clause to your argument...

thereby saved by DISobeying the will of God

....Being disobedient or obedient has nothing to do with your salvation. Currently I'm beginning to think you feel the need to merit your salvation....is that true? Perhaps you're trying to straddle the fence...yes?

 

[Galilee63]

The Holy Spirit is Present with Jesus at every Holy Baptism our Lords Blessed Holy Sacrament within His Catholic Church, Baptising in The Holy Spirit accompanied by our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary manifested and many Holy Angels and Saints and Holy Martyrs.

 

[Galilee63]

Our Lord Jesus turns the water into His Holy Water out of Him and through His Holy Sacred Divine Mercy Rays.

 

[Archivist]

--the bible is the source of God's truth, not those who claim to be Christians.

Wrong. The Bible only tells us of the Truth. It is Jesus who is the source of the Truth. John 14:6: Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life."

In any event, those Christians who practice infant baptism--who are the vast majority of Christians--get that from scripture. The Bible tells us that whole families--which would have included children--were baptized in the early church. Acts 16:33-34: "At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family." Likewise Peter said "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts 3:38-39.

Jesus made belief a prerequisite to baptism in Mk 16:16. Since infants do not have the mental ability, cognitive skills to have a biblical belief they are not candidates for baptism.

If Mark 16:16 said "he that first believes and then is baptized" you might have a point. However, as written it does not make belief a prerequisite to baptism.

The purpose of baptism is for the remission of sin Acts 2:38. Infants are born without sin therefore again, they are not candidates for baptism.

Infants cannot knowingly sin, but they are born with a sinful nature. Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Now, you are certainly welcome to your interpretation of scripture. However, I and the majority of Christians disagree with your interpretation.

 

[SkyWriting]

Since there is just one way to be saved/born again, not alternatives, then all 4 verses must say the same things. It becomes obvious that "water" of John 3:5 refers to water baptism as John was doing a few verses later in John 3:22-23.

The reason this refers to being born is that is the current conversation being spoken.

Not a few verses away, but a direct response.

What you are suggesting is the Jesus is pointing out how the womb comment
is rediculous. That's not how Jesus converses with people. He is supporting
the womb comment, and adding that there is a spiritual parallel, the Spirit
is reborn, just as a baby is born from water.

It has not connection with actual events a few verses later.....not part of the
actual dialogue.

 

[SkyWriting]

Our Lord Jesus turns the water into His Holy Water out of Him and through His Holy Sacred Divine Mercy Rays.

Provided people have extra water to spray around that is. If not, then hell.