- Aug 21, 2003
- 29,125
- 6,150
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-EIf baptism is not essential to salvation and if baptism was not preached when the gospel was preached, then what biblical logical reason can you give as to why both the eunuch and the jailer were immediately baptized afterward being preached to?
Yes we are and yes some have been and yes that's why 1 John 2:27 is TRUTHWhoever it is who performed the baptism.
We are baptized INTO Christ and INTO Christ's death - but we are not baptized BY Him
Jesus said you are a teacher of the law and you don't understand?What did Jesus say to Nicodemus in John 3:5??
The discussion might progress more logically if you were to read my posts. Once again, my previous post.Where are you getting this nonsense??
The word used in Titus 3:5 is not "Loutron" - it is παλιγγενεσια (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah) - and it means "NEW BIRTH".
You keep insisting on me reading the verses in-context but despite more than one post you have yet to address John 3:6.As for John 3:5 - Jesus says that a man must be "born" of water and Spirit. HOWEVER - He is explaining what He meant in verse 3, when He said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
You need to read ALL of these verses in context.
It is your cherry-picking of verses that causes you so much confusion.
I wasn't talking about the Catholic interpretation but yours. You still have not addressed vs. 6.Finally - the Catholic interpretation doesn't require three births, but TWO:
1. Natural Birth
2. Birth from Water and Spirit (John 3:5)
When Jesus was Baptized with water - the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove.
Water and Spirit.
My wife has aquaphobia. She nearly drowned as a child but she didn't have any problem when she was baptized.What if someone has aquaphobia (irrational fear of water)?
One (possibly) out 19 million Americans that suffer was able to be baptized. But what if the others actually resist it?My wife has aquaphobia. She nearly drowned as a child but she didn't have any problem when she was baptized.
A pastor I knew some years ago told of visiting the dying bed ridden husband of one of his congregants. After some time the man accepted Jesus and asked to be baptized. The pastor said that he was bed ridden and they couldn't do it. The man said use this glass of water. The pastor was upset and refused saying that would not be scriptural baptism.One (possibly) out 19 million Americans that suffer was able to be baptized. But what if the others actually resist it?
Almost sounds real.A pastor I knew some years ago told of visiting the dying bed ridden husband of one of his congregants. After some time the man accepted Jesus and asked to be baptized. The pastor said that he was bed ridden and they couldn't do it. The man said use this glass of water. The pastor was upset and refused saying that would not be scriptural baptism.
My thoughts on the matter is if I could bring comfort to a dying man with a glass of water , he would get sprinkled albeit scriptural baptism is full immersion.
Peter was implementing the command already given to him by the Lord Himself in Matt 28.The command in Acts 2:38 to be baptized is a command Peter is giving to his hearers and not to himself.
The eunuch and jailer were not baptized for no reason or not taught about baptism.
From Christ's great commission (Mat 28:19,20; Mark 16:15-16) baptism is how disciples are made. Also, the disciples in the great commission were told to teach new disciples to " to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" which includes baptism which Christ commanded.
Again, Christ NEVER taught belief only and neither did His disciples including Paul and Peter.
John 3:5 mentions one baptism (one birth) that has 2 elements: 1) water 2) Spirit.
The physical birth (corruptible seed) has nothing to do with this one birth 1 Peter 1:23
I have shown by comparing born again verses how "water" of Jn 3:5 is water baptism. So the element water refers to baptism. The role of the Spirit is that the Spirit is the author of the word that instructs men on how to be saved, hence men are born again by the word....the Corinthians were begotten through the gospel.
The gospel is to be obeyed 1 Thessalonians 1:8 and it takes works to obey.
I read 1 Cor 15:1-6 and I did not see the word grace specifically mentioned or the blood of Christ or repentance, confession, etc. So does that mean these are all unnecessary to salvation? Hardly.
some more thoughts I had about thisJohn 3:5 mentions one baptism (one birth) that has 2 elements: 1) water 2) Spirit.
The physical birth (corruptible seed) has nothing to do with this one birth 1 Peter 1:23
I have shown by comparing born again verses how "water" of Jn 3:5 is water baptism. So the element water refers to baptism. The role of the Spirit is that the Spirit is the author of the word that instructs men on how to be saved, hence men are born again by the word....the Corinthians were begotten through the gospel.
The gospel is to be obeyed 1 Thessalonians 1:8 and it takes works to obey.
I read 1 Cor 15:1-6 and I did not see the word grace specifically mentioned or the blood of Christ or repentance, confession, etc. So does that mean these are all unnecessary to salvation? Hardly.
The bible does not define baptism as something one does AFTER they are saved. In many verses, baptism is put BEFORE salvation, not after.Again I believe it's something God wants you to do after you're saved, not to get saved. It's an outward expression of what's already taken place.
some more thoughts I had about this
Many will object to the teaching that water baptism is not part of the gospel and is not needed for salvation and refer to John 3:5 where Jesus said “..Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” They interpret this to say that you must be water bapstised and have the Spirit to be born again.
This objection is easily answered by Jesus himself. Jesus does say that a man must be born again in John 3:3,” Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”, but then Nicodemus ask him “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born”. So Jesus answered this simple statement about being born again (John 3:3), he did not add of water and the Spirit, then Nicodemus ask his question, and mentions going back into the mothers womb and how can this be? Jesus then answers his question and says more than his first statement he says, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:5,6. He ansered Nicodumus question about going back into the mothers womb abd being born again, when he said “That which is born of the flesh is flesh;” speaking of the natural birth, or born of water. When a womans water breaks the baby come out with the water. This is the flesh birth, and then he says “and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6. Here refering to the spirital birth. Jesus is clearly defining the two births here. Nicodemus may have thought that he was a Jew and saved because of his natural birth and being a Child of Abraham. But Jesus is really saying to him that you cannot be born again into Gods kingdom unless you have this spiritual birth from above. If some still argue I ask them what does Jesus mean in context when he says that which is born of the flesh is flesh?, why bring that up in context right there.
Jesus further defines what this spiritual birth is and says “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8. If Jesus meant to say water baopsitm and the Spirit are how a man gets born again, then you could see this happening, you could look over at the water and say now he is born again. But no, Jesus says this birth is like the wind you cannot see it. This is because the new birth is by the word of God ( 1 Peter 1:21) and is an inward work in the heart, by the engrfted word which is able to save the soul. This new birth is the true saving batism into Christ, this is the grace of God that saves. Jesus said that the “flesh profiteth nothing, the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life. This is where the spiritual birth comes. Not by flesh birth or water baptism.
O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E
Peter was implementing the command already given to him by the Lord Himself in Matt 28.
The Eunuch had already previously been to Jerusalem and was a convert to Judaism. If a prison became a convert and was a Gentile, they had to be submerged in water by the Jews and circumcised, and some sources say they had to offer two turtle doves. But this was the Jewish Halakah law or oral tradition for dealing with Gentile converts. The Eunuch asked what hinders him from being baptized? He seemed to have this understanding from a previous baptism to the Jewish belief. Remember Philip was a Jew and still in some sense under the law as many of the other jews were as well, peter was also. We read in Acts 15 and 21 that the Jews still struggled with the law and yet even if they were struggling with it they did not put it on the Gentiles. In Acts 21 read it and see how many Jews that believed were still zealous for the law and the customs ( Halakah law or oral traditions if the Jews, of which water baptism of gentiles was one). Water baptism was not new to the Jews, There was arguments before Johns water baptism about whether or not Gentiles should be submurged or sprinkled, from what I remember reading about.
In Acts we see the jewish believers still following the law and Johns water baptism was part of the OT covenant and unto repentance ( not unto salvation). Paul was not sent to baptise but to preach the gospel. He was the apostle to the gentiles, and God is not bringing the Gentiles under the law and old covenant and then slowly bringing them out again, for the old covenant was fading away and ready to vanish. The jews had it imposed upon them until the time of reformation, which was as the new covenant took place of the old. But it took time for the jews being so weaned up in the law and their conscience needed to be clean in this and the understanding or else they can not go against their conscience. Imagine Peter getting up on pentecost and saying to all the Jews that got saved, that the law and temple and priest and sacrifices are all done, finished, no need for them any more or even for this place. First of all he did not have the understanding of that fully yet and so he could not say such a thing, and the ones hearing did not understand that either. The diverse washings ( baptisms in Greek) and carnal ordinances were IMPOSED upon them ( the Jews not Gentiles) until the time of reformation, Hebrews 9.
Jesus also said to them before his death that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it then. But when the Holy Ghost came he would guide them into al truth. Peter in Acts 15 was guided and said that he and the gentiles would be saved by the grace of God.
The great commission (Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16; Luke 24:42) says nothing about any kind of spirit baptism. The baptism of the great commission had disciples/humans administering water baptism and humans can administer water baptism as the Phillip did with the eunuch. Why did the Spirit send Phillip to the eunuch Acts 8:29? To teach him and water baptism him. NO "spirit baptism" here at all.LoveofTruth said:No in Matthew 28 it does not say "water". It is on your part to prove he speaks of water baptism there. And this formula of Father Son and Holy Ghost is never used in such a way in the New testament for water baptism.
Jesus said while he was with the disciples he kept them in the fathers name. The name of the Lord is a strong tower the righteous run into it and are safe. To teach all nations does something. The teaching ( by the Spirit and power) immerses them into the name (or character, life power attributes) of the Father Son and Holy Ghost. To be baptized into Christ or in to the name of jesus is to be immersed into the power character and life of Christ as a new creation. We put on Christ and are baptized into him. For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. This is not water baptism. This is the one ( saving ) baptism which all must have. This one baptism is for as many as have been baptized into Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. That body is the body of Christ. 1 Cor 12:13. This is the saving baptism, and it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ( or an outward washing with water) but it is an inward work where we are in Christ and he in us, where we have the witness in ourself and our conscience also break witness. We have a good conscience ( with knowledge) of the resurrection of Christ and a full assurance of hope by this and the reality of being risen with Christ as well. Noah and the ark was a type of this. They were saved in the ark, we are saved in Christ. They were lifted up into the heavens above the judgement of the old world, and we are raised up with Christ into the heavenliness dead to the old life and world. We find rest in Christ and Noahs name means resting place.
LoveofTruth said:but scripture says
John 3:36
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:..."
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
and
1 John 5: 4,5
"4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
and
Romans 8
"
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
and
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
"1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
and
"Galatians 3
"
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?