Is Universal Evolution Woo-Woo?

Ophiolite

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Aw darn. I was hoping for something exciting and crazy. But generally I agree.
I'm sorry I disappointed. :) The closest I can come to crazy is in regard to Intelligent Design, which is essentially teleological. My main objection to Intelligent Design is that it puts up barriers to researching intelligent design. Note the lower case id. My logic goes thus:
  • Intelligent life may well exist in this galaxy. (I think the jury is still out if we can claim we have it here!)
  • If so the probability is that some of it is older, perhaps much older, than us.
  • It is then plausible that one or more ET species could have visited the Earth in the past. (No, not UFOs)
  • If they did perhaps they indulged in a little genetic engineering.
  • If so that might be detectable in genomes. . .
  • But only if we look for it and the claims and failures of ID means it is not considered respectable to look for id.
But this is now seriously off-topic. Or perhaps not.
 
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durangodawood

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I'm sorry I disappointed. :) The closest I can come to crazy is in regard to Intelligent Design, which is essentially teleological. My main objection to Intelligent Design is that it puts up barriers to researching intelligent design. Note the lower case id. My logic goes thus:
  • Intelligent life may well exist in this galaxy. (I think the jury is still out if we can claim we have it here!)
  • If so the probability is that some of it is older, perhaps much older, than us.
  • It is then plausible that one or more ET species could have visited the Earth in the past. (No, not UFOs)
  • If they did perhaps they indulged in a little genetic engineering.
  • If so that might be detectable in genomes. . .
  • But only if we look for it and the claims and failures of ID means it is not considered respectable to look for id.
But this is now seriously off-topic. Or perhaps not.
Sounds plausible except I dont know what you mean by "not ufos". Did they teleport here?

It does kick the origin of life question down the road. But maybe thats where it belongs. I think this is sufficiently crazy for me, for now.
 
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Ophiolite

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Sounds plausible except I dont know what you mean by "not ufos". Did they teleport here
I meant that I was not suggesting that the UFOs seen in our current era are the ETs I am referring to. (The U in UFO tells un what they are.) I envisage the real ETs, if they visited, did so millions, possibly billions of years ago.
 
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Vap841

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I think it's reasonable to describe biological evolution as a part or subsystem of cosmic evolution - they're driven by the same process. But it's important to note that it's entropic rather than teleological - there's no higher goal or progress, beyond the increase of entropy until thermodynamic equilibrium ('heat death'). The evolution of complex systems is a temporary feature of the current benign entropic gradient; the early universe was too chaotic, the later universe will be too equilibrated.
Why can’t things be both, a sea of teleology inside of an entropic lifespan?
 
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Vap841

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In addition the Big Bang doesn't even explain the origin of the energy and matter found in the early universe. I merely describes the development and changes that occurred as far back as we can find evidence.
Explaining that all of that matter and energy originated at time T, and from an area smaller than a pinhead is not a shabby explanation of origins though. I don’t think there can even be an explanation of where it came from since scientific inquiry is powerless to even reach beyond that point.
 
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Shemjaza

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Explaining that all of that matter and energy originated at time T, and from an area smaller than a pinhead is not a shabby explanation of origins though. I don’t think there can even be an explanation of where it came from since scientific inquiry is powerless to even reach beyond that point.
Oh I'll agree that it's super impressive and informative about our universe and its history... I just don't like it being mischaracterised as the absolute beginning of the universe.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Why can’t things be both, a sea of teleology inside of an entropic lifespan?
Who knows? Why not anything? But the evidence indicates that, in this universe, events unfold according to deterministic (perhaps partly stochastic) physical laws.

You could argue that the laws themselves had a teleological origin, but there's no way to know that.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Explaining that all of that matter and energy originated at time T, and from an area smaller than a pinhead is not a shabby explanation of origins though.
Not all matter and energy; just that of the observable universe. We know that the observable universe is only a tiny part of the whole - which may even be infinite. The estimated size of the observable universe at the big bang ranges from a grapefruit to sub-atomic; it's not very well-defined.

I don’t think there can even be an explanation of where it came from since scientific inquiry is powerless to even reach beyond that point.
That depends on whether a hypothetical pre-big bang prior state would leave detectable traces in this universe. There are a number of hypotheses where that would occur, e.g. Roger Penrose's Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (not very popular, but he claims testable implications).
 
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durangodawood

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Why can’t things be both, a sea of teleology inside of an entropic lifespan?
Could be. But we're wary of teleology because our human tendency to project meaning onto everything.

We end up learning more about our own human desires than the reality of the universe out there.
 
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Vap841

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Who knows? Why not anything? But the evidence indicates that, in this universe, events unfold according to deterministic (perhaps partly stochastic) physical laws.

You could argue that the laws themselves had a teleological origin, but there's no way to know that.
Could be. But we're wary of teleology because our human tendency to project meaning onto everything.

We end up learning more about our own human desires than the reality of the universe out there.
I sympathize with Aristotle that I can’t not notice everything around me as driving towards the completion of a task, even if it does so with imperfections and mistakes. But I also could sympathize with meeting you two half way and thinking well maybe it’s just a matter of this is simply what reality looks like. Maybe elliptical space time solar systems is simply what reality does and looks like. Maybe even though I can say that evolution itself is teleologically committed to adapting species to suit their environments, maybe the teleology of it is nothing but the basic idea that that is what reality does. Maybe the life & death circles of life is simply what reality does, etc. So in that sense you could see how there is teleology everywhere, but at the same time it’s just a grand system of default teleology, but there is no teleology in the sense that there’s a God who would give a crap how the chips fall for anything or any species?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I sympathize with Aristotle that I can’t not notice everything around me as driving towards the completion of a task, even if it does so with imperfections and mistakes. But I also could sympathize with meeting you two half way and thinking well maybe it’s just a matter of this is simply what reality looks like. Maybe elliptical space time solar systems is simply what reality does and looks like. Maybe even though I can say that evolution itself is teleologically committed to adapting species to suit their environments, maybe the teleology of it is nothing but the basic idea that that is what reality does. Maybe the life & death circles of life is simply what reality does, etc. So in that sense you could see how there is teleology everywhere, but at the same time it’s just a grand system of default teleology, but there is no teleology in the sense that there’s a God who would give a crap how the chips fall for anything or any species?
We're predisposed to interpret events in terms of agency, so we tend to see the world through a teleological filter. But when you understand the mechanism of a process like evolution, you can begin to see both why it might appear teleological and why it isn't.

Human anthropocentric bias doesn't help - we tend to focus our attention on aspects involving us, so we're inclined see it as a process of ever-increasing complexity culminating in humans, ignoring the vast majority of equally evolutionarily successful but relatively simple life.
 
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Vap841

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We're predisposed to interpret events in terms of agency, so we tend to see the world through a teleological filter. But when you understand the mechanism of a process like evolution, you can begin to see both why it might appear teleological and why it isn't.

Human anthropocentric bias doesn't help - we tend to focus our attention on aspects involving us, so we're inclined see it as a process of ever-increasing complexity culminating in humans, ignoring the vast majority of equally evolutionarily successful but relatively simple life.
I would have to meet you half way again in that I agree that humans are predisposed to interpret events in terms of the teleology of some supreme agency, but as far as teleology in general goes I would instead say that humans are just a species that has the cognitive capacity to spot it. Which is why we are the only species out there that does science, we’re figuring out the teleology of everything.

As for a supreme agent, one thing I can go back & forth on with myself is the idea that there is a supreme consciousness to reality vs the idea that there are only products of consciousness in reality. IMO it makes no sense that anything would have consciousness if it couldn’t use that consciousness to make decisions, so it makes no sense that a rock would have consciousness but it would make sense for an animal with limbs to have it. I know this is just my opinion, but a supreme agent that couldn’t alter anything would look exactly the same as no supreme agent at all, and a supreme agent that can alter things but doesn’t care about the fate of Earth would probably be impossible to notice anyway. Was there any time in your life that you believed that a supreme agent existed, and if so was it your own idea or do you think that the idea was planted into you by society?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I would have to meet you half way again in that I agree that humans are predisposed to interpret events in terms of the teleology of some supreme agency...
Not necessarily a supreme agency, but all kinds of hidden creatures - fairies, sprites, elves, gremlins, pixies, spirits, ghosts, 'little people', etc. Basically, wherever a natural explanation wasn't available, some (often mischievous or malevolent) hidden agent would be invoked.

...as far as teleology in general goes I would instead say that humans are just a species that has the cognitive capacity to spot it. Which is why we are the only species out there that does science, we’re figuring out the teleology of everything.
As I said, this has been studied, and the empirical evidence is that we default to a teleological view - and there are plausible evolutionary explanations why this should be so. To assume teleology when there is no evidence of a purposive agent and there is a natural explanation that accounts for the phenomena, is clearly a mistake.

As for a supreme agent, one thing I can go back & forth on with myself is the idea that there is a supreme consciousness to reality vs the idea that there are only products of consciousness in reality. IMO it makes no sense that anything would have consciousness if it couldn’t use that consciousness to make decisions, so it makes no sense that a rock would have consciousness but it would make sense for an animal with limbs to have it.
I think that's reasonable.

... a supreme agent that couldn’t alter anything would look exactly the same as no supreme agent at all, and a supreme agent that can alter things but doesn’t care about the fate of Earth would probably be impossible to notice anyway.
That's a problem with supreme agents - there's no point unless they exercise agency in some way - so once you believe, it's like a man with a hammer - everything looks like a nail...

Was there any time in your life that you believed that a supreme agent existed, and if so was it your own idea or do you think that the idea was planted into you by society?
To cut a long story short, I'm not sure... I believed what I was told, until I could think things through for myself. Of course the idea was planted by society; I was told what was 'true', what I should believe. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of people have the religious beliefs of the culture that raises them.

I grew up in a Catholic environment and went to Catholic schools (the second was an abbey school run by Dominican priests). As a child, I followed instructions; I prayed at night and before meals, went to church with family and school, went to confession and asked forgiveness for my sins, etc.

By the time I reached my teens and met non-Catholics, I'd begun to realise that not only were other Catholics not following the 'rules', but beyond scriptural guidance, the supernatural pantheon (God, the Virgin Mary, the Trinity, angels, saints, etc) appeared to have no effect at all on people's lives - they weren't happier, wealthier, or better people. For me personally, talking or praying to God had always been like talking to the void - I got no response, and had to rely on my elders and my own conscience to guide me.

The priests would say ambiguous things like, "It'll come...", "You'll hear the voice", "You'll know when the time is right", but would never answer a straight question with a straight answer. So I drifted away from it - it never really 'took' for me; I went from a child following instructions, to early adolescent waiting for a 'sign', to studying the natural world - and beginning to understand what organised religion was about, and the psychology of superstitions, paranormal, and supernatural beliefs.

Autobiographical memory is notoriously unreliable - we reconstruct it according to our current attitudes & perspectives, so this is literally my story of what I think happened; but for whatever reason, religious belief didn't 'take'.

That's part of the reason I'm here, I'm curious to know why it 'took' for some people and not for others.
 
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Ophiolite

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Not necessarily a supreme agency, but all kinds of hidden creatures - fairies, sprites, elves, gremlins, pixies, spirits, ghosts, 'little people', etc. Basically, wherever a natural explanation wasn't available, some (often mischievous or malevolent) hidden agent would be invoked.

As I said, this has been studied, and the empirical evidence is that we default to a teleological view - and there are plausible evolutionary explanations why this should be so. To assume teleology when there is no evidence of a purposive agent and there is a natural explanation that accounts for the phenomena, is clearly a mistake.

I think that's reasonable.

That's a problem with supreme agents - there's no point unless they exercise agency in some way - so once you believe, it's like a man with a hammer - everything looks like a nail...

To cut a long story short, I'm not sure... I believed what I was told, until I could think things through for myself. Of course the idea was planted by society; I was told what was 'true', what I should believe. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of people have the religious beliefs of the culture that raises them.

I grew up in a Catholic environment and went to Catholic schools (the second was an abbey school run by Dominican priests). As a child, I followed instructions; I prayed at night and before meals, went to church with family and school, went to confession and asked forgiveness for my sins, etc.

By the time I reached my teens and met non-Catholics, I'd begun to realise that not only were other Catholics not following the 'rules', but beyond scriptural guidance, the supernatural pantheon (God, the Virgin Mary, the Trinity, angels, saints, etc) appeared to have no effect at all on people's lives - they weren't happier, wealthier, or better people. For me personally, talking or praying to God had always been like talking to the void - I got no response, and had to rely on my elders and my own conscience to guide me.

The priests would say ambiguous things like, "It'll come...", "You'll hear the voice", "You'll know when the time is right", but would never answer a straight question with a straight answer. So I drifted away from it - it never really 'took' for me; I went from a child following instructions, to early adolescent waiting for a 'sign', to studying the natural world - and beginning to understand what organised religion was about, and the psychology of superstitions, paranormal, and supernatural beliefs.

Autobiographical memory is notoriously unreliable - we reconstruct it according to our current attitudes & perspectives, so this is literally my story of what I think happened; but for whatever reason, religious belief didn't 'take'.

That's part of the reason I'm here, I'm curious to know why it 'took' for some people and not for others.
We need an icon for "refreshingly honest, personal and on point". Since there isn't one I had to make do with "Winner".
 
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AV1611VET

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We need an icon for "refreshingly honest, personal and on point". Since there isn't one I had to make do with "Winner".
1200x630wa.png
 
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