Is Trump the first horseman of the apocalypse?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'll watch the one with Johnny Depp and we'll call it even.

It's the older ones with the second half of the William Tell overture.

 

[mathinspiration]

The conservatives also thought Obama and Clinton were,too.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

He would need a block and tackle to mount that white horse.

Heiho Silver! And away! The Lone Ranger rode a white horse!

 

[Tutorman]

Does anyone find this plausible?

No

Or am I once again overreacting?

Yes

 

[Postvieww]

The white horse has already come. And He is Christ.

. Did Christ open the first seal and release Himself?????????

 

[DavidPT]

It says he went forth to conquer and that seems to be all Trump has been doing... conquering #winning. He said he was going to do so much winning that we'd be tired of winning... White horse because he's white and controls USA which is predominantly Caucasian. It says he goes forth with a bow. If we read in Ephesians ch.6 about the armor of God it implores us to take up a shield of Faith to defend against the fiery darts of the devil. Darts and arrows (I believe) represent attacks from long range. The fiery darts of the evil one would be to cast doubt upon us in attempt to trick us and to attack our faith in other ways indirectly. Likewise, arrows from a bow can be likened to fiery darts in that they are projectiles. Trump tweets projectile arrows everyday that further encourage his conquering and sting his opposition.

Does anyone find this plausible? Or am I once again overreacting?

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow(toxon); and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.



toxon
toxon
tox'-on
from the base of tiktw - tikto 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.



Unless the Strong's I'm using is incorrect, bow in this verse doesn't appear to be meaning what you are taking it to mean.

 

[TribulationSigns]

. Did Christ open the first seal and release Himself?????????

Sure, why not. John only saw a vision.

 

[Blade]

.. I do not believe so

 

[friend of]

Sure, why not. John only saw a vision.

This is kind of my entire philosophy when it comes to Revelation.

In the end, it was a VISION. We have absolutely no idea what John actually saw. There is no way to perfectly translate what he saw and therefore it's not possible to ascertain what every detail of Revelation is.

 

[ebedmelech]

This thread is "newspaper eschatological" nonsense. The first rider has nothing to do with Trump whatsoever!!!

Take a look at the passage, which is Revelation 6:1-2:
Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.”
2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

* One should know Jesus is breaking the seals from Revelation 5. It can be no one else. Many buy into the error this rider is "the anti Christ"...but it can't be as the next time we see this rider on the white horse, is in Revelation 19...except He is coming in judgement with His church also on white horses. The rider is on a white horse...and white represents being pure, which can only be The Lord Jesus!!!

* The rider has a bow and is given a crown. This represents Jesus being given the crown of "glory and honor" as we read in Hebrews 2:7-9 as well as Revelation 4:11. The bow that the rider has is representative of the arrows of judgement which Jesus will shoot to bring judgement. This is something we read poetically in the Psalms and prophets, the arrows God shoot in judgement....only since Jesus has been given the reign He is rendering judgement as He received all authority from the Father after His resurrection as Matthew 28:18 clearly states.

* It is Jesus and His church which goes forth conquering and to conquer. Paul tells us in Romans 8:37-38 we OVERWHELMINGLY conquer through the Lord Jesus.

The only rider I'm looking for is Jesus!

 

[Postvieww]

Sure, why not. John only saw a vision.

Let’s see why not.

1. I believe it makes no sense to say Jesus opened up the first seal and release Himself, because He is seated at the right hand of the Father. What would releasing Himself mean?

2. The fact that Jesus is shown in Revelation 19 on a white horse does not prove the white horse rider in Revelation 6 is Jesus. In Revelation 19 the armies in heaven also rode white horses.

3. If Jesus was the one riding the white horse who are the individuals riding the other 3 horses? Why should we believe one represents the person of Christ and the other 3 represent a none entity or something else?

4. Zechariah 6 mentions 4 colored horse and those are called “the four spirits of the heavens”. Why can we not entertain the possibility those in Revelation 6 are spirits as well.

5. Revelation 6 uses the pronouns “he’ and “him” for all of the riders.

6. What is Jesus going “forth conquering, and to conquer” ? He said it is finished at the cross. We are conquers through Him Romans 8:37. Jesus said in John 16:33 “I have overcome the world” not I will conquer when I open the first seal.

Some say the white horse rider is Jesus, the antichrist, the spread of the gospel, Catholicism and myriad of other theories. IMHO most any of them fit better than Christ for the reasons stated.

Some say white can only represent purity. I disagree.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Deception can masquerade as purity.

How many reasons do you have other than a white horse?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It says he went forth to conquer and that seems to be all Trump has been doing... conquering #winning. He said he was going to do so much winning that we'd be tired of winning... White horse because he's white and controls USA which is predominantly Caucasian. It says he goes forth with a bow. If we read in Ephesians ch.6 about the armor of God it implores us to take up a shield of Faith to defend against the fiery darts of the devil. Darts and arrows (I believe) represent attacks from long range. The fiery darts of the evil one would be to cast doubt upon us in attempt to trick us and to attack our faith in other ways indirectly. Likewise, arrows from a bow can be likened to fiery darts in that they are projectiles. Trump tweets projectile arrows everyday that further encourage his conquering and sting his opposition.

Does anyone find this plausible? Or am I once again overreacting?

Considering his main mode of transportation is gas fueled metallic beast ... maybe prophet of the beast?

 

[ebedmelech]

The seals being opened by Jesus are events that come to pass. To think Jesus is releasing Himself is faulty reasoning.

In Revelation 5:1 the sealed book is sitting at God's right hand. It states Jesus has overcome (which literally means conquered), and is found worthy to open the book. This is Jesus assuming "all authority" from the Father and He will keep that authority until He renders judgement upon His return. After that Jesus will return the reign to the Father, just as scripture declares.

The opening of the first seal is Jesus, having conquered sin and death releasing the power of the gospel...not Himself. He is seated on the horse as being in command! One cannot take this literal or how could it be said the church is the body of Christ?

The seal is representative of the New Covenant which is entered into by the gospel.

 

[friend of]

@Postvieww

To Echo your post I don't believe that the first Horseman is Jesus at all. Why would he be put alongside famine pestilence and death for example? The Conqueror is probably the Antichrist to takes control of the European Union, possibly uniting other countries in the Western Hemisphere or Globe itself, under the guise of peace. The final obstacle between completing the globally connected puzzle, I will surmise, would be peace between Israel and Arab Nations. Somewhere it says that 10 Kings will give their power to this one king or Institution.

As a trend in our human nature, power tends to consolidate higher up, and so a future expectation would be that lesser ranked dignitaries in this world will come to be no more, and that such Grand ostentatious positions will be fewer. The rich get richer that's the law of the land. Strong get stronger that's the law of the land. Future leaders will simply have more power.

If we take this view into account then we are probably looking at decades in the future at the very least before this all happens considering Brexit and mounting geo-political instability...

 

[SolomonVII]

I was a little surprised to read about the wide variety of interpretations that were given to the white Horsemen, everything from Christ to anti-Christ to Holy Spirit to Pestilence and Conquest.

Trump for his part is not all that much of anything. America is probably much less 'white' now than at any time since the Indian wars. Trump is certainly not Christ-like, and even he would laugh at the idea that he was in any way like the Holy Spirit. As far as the being the anti-Christ starting a world religion, he doesn't even pretend to be a good person. He is probably the least conspicuously religious president that there has been in recent memory
Conquest? Well no, not really. Bombing an airfield in Syria, and trash talking with a North Korean dictator, or even joining in an international effort to fight a very localized war against ISIS in the ME does not make him in any way as belligerent as many of the recent presidents. He makes no pretensions to be a conqueror, but his speaking is more along the lines of the Pat Robertsons of the world, that if American interests are not involved, he is not much interested. He was even absolutely conspiratorial in his dissing of GWB neoliberal policies.
Pestilence? Well flu deaths are up in Britain from what I hear, but that doesn't have anything to do with Trump. AIDS is more or less under control for at least a decade or two, so pestilence is not looming large on the horizon.
Trump seems to be the next in a line of rather mediocre presidents when it comes to global conquest. His plans and his goals are not all that epic or of Biblical proportions, even when compared to other presidents of the post-WWII period.
Look, the world is a dangerous place. If a North Korean nuke gets accidently fired and lands in Japan, the whole world could change over night. Ebola could mutate into a world wide epidemic. There are a thousand and one things that could happen.
At the moment though, it would be safe to bet that Trump will play rather a tangential role, and he will be on social media with the rest of us tweeting about it.

 

[Postvieww]

The seals being opened by Jesus are events that come to pass. To think Jesus is releasing Himself is faulty reasoning.

In Revelation 5:1 the sealed book is sitting at God's right hand. It states Jesus has overcome (which literally means conquered), and is found worthy to open the book. This is Jesus assuming "all authority" from the Father and He will keep that authority until He renders judgement upon His return. After that Jesus will return the reign to the Father, just as scripture declares.

The opening of the first seal is Jesus, having conquered sin and death releasing the power of the gospel...not Himself. He is seated on the horse as being in command! One cannot take this literal or how could it be said the church is the body of Christ?

The seal is representative of the New Covenant which is entered into by the gospel.

Would it be safe for me to understand you believe the four horsemen are entirely symbolic and Jesus is not actually on that horse? If that be true I still disagree with you. We agree Jesus opened the seals but I see the riders as actual heavenly entities, angels if you prefer the term. There may be symbolism associated with the horses and colors but Zechariah 6:5 tells us they are spirits of heaven and Revelation 6 uses the pronouns “he’ and “him”. That IMHO rules out Jesus as the first rider. I understand your reasoning but disagree.


Those that believe it represents the antichrist feel just as strongly as you that they are correct in their interpretation. I disagree with that interpretation even more strongly than yours, because I believe the text shows us Jesus began to open the seals shortly after arriving in heaven after His ascension. I believe in all four examples the riders have a function or task assigned by God.


You did explain your reasons but really didn’t address my concerns listed. Show me why I shouldn’t relate Zechariah 6 to Revelation 6 . Show why all four riders are not spirits carrying out assignments from God just as those in Zech. I agree the seals are events but I believe they are brought to or aided in coming to pass by the riders the “he’s “ and “hims” on the horses, the spirits of heaven, the angels in Gods service.


Comparing this to the example of the church and body of Christ is not equivalent in my opinion. Yes this was shown to John in the Spirit, but that does not automatically make everything he saw symbolic. I take it literally except where it is impossible and this is not one of those cases. I believe many times John told us what the symbolism means where appropriate for example the dragon is satan. In Revelation 19 John said Jesus rode a white horse but he didn’t us tell the rider of the horse in Revelation 6 was Jesus or represented Him. For the reasons listed, in my opinion “white” is not sufficient to make that leap.


When trying to determine what these horses represent one can arrive just about any conclusion they choose and most speak with certainty that there interpretation is correct. I have my own ideas but cannot be as certain as most who claim to know for sure.


The Book of Revelation starts out calling what John saw a “revelation”, John said he was “in the Spirit” and repeatedly says he “heard” and “saw”. I believe John wrote down for us what he literally saw and heard, I believe he saw something very similar to what Zechariah saw.


IMHO, attaching any meaning to the four horses and riders that ignores the riders as being emissaries of God is a mistake based on the text.


I welcome your ideas these are a few of mine.

 

[friend of]

Just read an article that made a very convincing case that the first Rider is actually Jesus Christ.

Sigh--

I give up I don't want to even understand Revelations at this point... probably for the best

 

[ebedmelech]

Just read an article that made a very convincing case that the first Rider is actually Jesus Christ.

Sigh--

I give up I don't want to even understand Revelations at this point... probably for the best

I'd like to offer you a resource that may help you come to a conclusion. Try this book by Steve Gregg:

This book will present to you the four primary views of Revelation and the methods of interpretation for you.

 

[ebedmelech]

Would it be safe for me to understand you believe the four horsemen are entirely symbolic and Jesus is not actually on that horse? If that be true I still disagree with you. We agree Jesus opened the seals but I see the riders as actual heavenly entities, angels if you prefer the term. There may be symbolism associated with the horses and colors but Zechariah 6:5 tells us they are spirits of heaven and Revelation 6 uses the pronouns “he’ and “him”. That IMHO rules out Jesus as the first rider. I understand your reasoning but disagree.

Yes, I do believe each are symbolic. If you notice each horseman is seen by John followed by what they represent. Therefore I think it's safe to conclude John actually saw each horse followed by the explanation of the event the horse represents. I think what's important about each horse is the color, followed by the explanation of what event comes about after the horse is seen by John.

Those that believe it represents the antichrist feel just as strongly as you that they are correct in their interpretation. I disagree with that interpretation even more strongly than yours, because I believe the text shows us Jesus began to open the seals shortly after arriving in heaven after His ascension. I believe in all four examples the riders have a function or task assigned by God.

The problem is not realizing the color of each horse. The horses themselves are symbolic of power. When it comes to the white horse nothing is said of the rider except that he had a bow, a crown, and went forth conquering and to conquer.
Yes...this is Christ after conquering sin and death. Hebrews 1 is a lynchpin!

You did explain your reasons but really didn’t address my concerns listed. Show me why I shouldn’t relate Zechariah 6 to Revelation 6 . Show why all four riders are not spirits carrying out assignments from God just as those in Zech. I agree the seals are events but I believe they are brought to or aided in coming to pass by the riders the “he’s “ and “hims” on the horses, the spirits of heaven, the angels in Gods service.

You should relate Zechariah 6 as well as Zechariah 1. I think each passage is clear these horses represent something...that is why explanation follows after they are seen, so we understand each horse is an event that represents what God is doing. Each horse is symbolic of the event , which is accomplished by God's angels/prophets/servants.

Comparing this to the example of the church and body of Christ is not equivalent in my opinion. Yes this was shown to John in the Spirit, but that does not automatically make everything he saw symbolic. I take it literally except where it is impossible and this is not one of those cases. I believe many times John told us what the symbolism means where appropriate for example the dragon is satan. In Revelation 19 John said Jesus rode a white horse but he didn’t us tell the rider of the horse in Revelation 6 was Jesus or represented Him. For the reasons listed, in my opinion “white” is not sufficient to make that leap.

The point is that we know we are called the body of Christ as believers. Obviously we are not literally Christ, therefore this is symbolism of Christ indwelling us by the Holy Spirit. In a vision are things seen. Revelation is loaded with things seen, that are further explained to show what that which is seen, means...therefore it is symbolism. In Revelation 1:1 it says Jesus "sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw." The word "communicated" is the Greek word sēmainō, which means to give a sign. The KJV says "and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"...this means the method by which Revelation is written is in signs and symbols, which I believe is the method by which one can understand Revelation. All throughout Revelation John looks, sees something, which is followed by explanation which tells what that which he saw means.

When trying to determine what these horses represent one can arrive just about any conclusion they choose and most speak with certainty that there interpretation is correct. I have my own ideas but cannot be as certain as most who claim to know for sure.

The Book of Revelation starts out calling what John saw a “revelation”, John said he was “in the Spirit” and repeatedly says he “heard” and “saw”. I believe John wrote down for us what he literally saw and heard, I believe he saw something very similar to what Zechariah saw.

IMHO, attaching any meaning to the four horses and riders that ignores the riders as being emissaries of God is a mistake based on the text.

I think my answers above answer this portion. Revelation cannot be understood without the OT prophets. Much of it is rooted in their prophecy

I welcome your ideas these are a few of mine.

Thank you. We're all continually learning when it comes to God's word!

 

[iamlamad]

I've heard of this interpretive context before. What is it designated as, if you don't mind my asking?

Chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation are there for a purpose: the CONTEXT of the seals. They tell us a story: a throne room with Jesus missing, when we have a dozen verses telling us He would be at the right hand of the Father; a search for one worthy that ended in failure, the Holy Spirit there in the throne room when we would expect Him to be on earth; then a sudden change, where a man WAS found worthy, then Jesus suddenly appearing in the throne room when He was not there before, and the Holy Spirit sent down as soon as the SON ascended up. So WHEN did Jesus ascend? Around 32 AD. This then must be the timing of the first seals if we leave the seals in their context. Anyone can make the first seal into anything if they remove it from the context.

Then we consider the color white: John used it 14 other times in Revelation, each time to show righteousness. John would not have white at the first seal to represent anything else but righteousness.

There was only ONE thing "righteous"on earth in 32 AD and that was the infant church. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop and advance of the church.