Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

[Saint Steven]

So, if I understand what some are saying, Romans 10:9 falls short of the course because "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" is not enough? That it requires the work of someone else (the laying on of somebody elses hands or the confirmation by another person) to complete that which Jesus died on the cross to accomplish? That Jesus' death and Resurrection and ascension to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Fater was not sufficient? Sort of like the priest has to give you last rites or hear your confession or it doesn't count? Or you can't read the Bible without another person of the collar there to interpret for you? You are saying that if that you repent of your sins, and that you are baptized as a public proclamation of your faith, all of this needs something more in order to be saved? Or is it just the part about receiving the Holy Spirit?

No one is claiming this is a salvation issue.

Every Baptist I have met that spoke in tongues was never satisfied to just be a Baptist after that. Something to consider.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is not enough to say, "Jesus is Lord." Consider the Gospel:

Matthew 7:21 (WEB) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few chosen."

Paul spoke about gifts of the spirit of various sorts, not everyone was gifted in the same way:

1 Corinthians 12:7 (WEB) The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides."

Prophesy is when God gives words and instructions for someone to give to another or others. God's memory surpasses human memory.

Matthew 7:21 was stated in the context of Jesus warning against false prophets whose objective was to draw people away from Christ through false signs and wonders. It was never directed to born-again believers in Christ. To refer to born again believers is a misquote of the Scripture and is misusing the words of Jesus to criticise and put down those who believe in and use the gifts of the Spirit.

But you are correct in saying that there has to be more than just saying Jesus is Lord. We must demonstrate the Lordship of Christ in our lives by showing the fruit of the Spirit in the way we conduct ourselves. You are right in quoting that many are called but few are chosen. This shows that invitation to be saved through Christ is given to many, but only those who put their hands up and receive Christ are chosen.

You are correct that not everyone has the same gifting. This is the principle of Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ, the Church. Every member has different functions and roles in the Church with giftings to match that role.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It's frustrating that is seems like everyone is obsessed with tongues but forget that there are a bunch of others Gifts Of The Holy Spirit:

• The gift of Wisdom
• The gift of Knowledge
• The gift of Faith
• The gift of Healing
• The gift of Miracles
• The gift of Prophecy
• The gift of Discerning Spirits
• The gift of Tongues
• The gift of Interpreting Tongues
• The gift of Administration
• The gift of Helps

https://www.allaboutgod.com/gifts-of-the-spirit.htm

Those who speak and pray in tongues are not usually obsessed about it. They absorb it as part of their spiritual lives and just get on with serving Christ and spreading the gospel. It seems that it is those who oppose tongues tend to be more obsessed at trying to disprove the genuineness of it.

 

[DamianWarS]

I mostly agree.
I don't have the issues many have between Acts and 1 Corinthians. They are in harmony from my perspective.

if they are in harmony then you have answered your own question. Tongues cannot describe initial evidence as this would conflict with the teachings in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

[Saint Steven]

if they are in harmony then you have answered your own question. Tongues cannot describe initial evidence as this would conflict with the teachings in 1 Corinthians 12.

The tongues that come as "evidence" of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit are not the same as the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians.

This is one of the BIG points I have been trying to make with my topics. There is more than one kind of tongues. (at least five kinds) There is more than one use for tongues. There is more than one reason for speaking in tongues.

 

[DamianWarS]

The tongues that come as "evidence" of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit are not the same as the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians.

This is one of the BIG points I have been trying to make with my topics. There is more than one kind of tongues. (at least five kinds) There is more than one use for tongues. There is more than one reason for speaking in tongues.

then tongues in Acts conflicts with the teaching in 1 Corinthians. Which is it?

 

[Saint Steven]

then tongues in Acts conflicts with the teaching in 1 Corinthians. Which is it?

It's not a matter of choosing one, or the other; it is both. And, there is more than one kind of tongues in Acts. And more than one kind of tongues in 1 Corinthians. For instance, the tongues spoken at the outpouring at Pentecost is different than the outpouring in the house of Cornelius. This should be obvious.

 

[Brandon Hickman]

And th

And, of course, we need to hear the personal testimonies of those who have experienced something other than the "standard" experience with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Probably the best example of this is found in the passage in the book of the Acts of the Apostles about the new believers in Samaria.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This follows the established pattern listed above. (also see Acts 2:38-39)

- Belief
- Repentance (assumed)
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (received through the laying on of hands)

They only thing missing in the passage is the evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We will have to look at other passages for that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are examples of the initial evidence of tongues following the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But notice that in each case there is another manifestation listed. This begs the question of this topic. Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Or is any manifestation of the Holy Spirit valid evidence? Or in some cases, the manifestations may come later.

Here's what we don't know based on these texts. Did everyone in these examples speak in tongues? Did some have another manifestation instead of tongues? Did everyone manifest tongues but some had a second manifestation? We are not told.
​

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's another example. No evidence of a manifestation is given other than his miraculous healing. But who would argue that the Apostle Paul did not speak in tongues?

Acts 9:16-19
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Summary statement

In Acts 19:6 and Acts 10:44-46 we see a manifestation of something other than tongues listed as evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Namely, prophecy and praising God.

Some may argue that praising "praising God" is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. However, at Pentecost the onlookers exclaimed, "... we hear them declaring the wonders of Go

The biblical model says, "No." --- Or at least begs the question.

Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence
of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

What do others know about this?
Have you, or anyone you know, had an experience with the
Baptism with the Holy Spirit that differs from the "norm"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is the second of two baptisms for the believer.
In the book of the Acts of the Apostles we see this pattern established. (but not always in this order)
- Belief
- Repentance
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (typically received through the laying on of hands)

But how do you know that you have received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Most would say that tongues follow the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And that is mostly correct. However, that may not be the case.
Even the biblical model leaves us with questions about the validity of that claim.

And, of course, we need to hear the personal testimonies of those who have experienced something other than the "standard" experience with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Probably the best example of this is found in the passage in the book of the Acts of the Apostles about the new believers in Samaria.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This follows the established pattern listed above. (also see Acts 2:38-39)

- Belief
- Repentance (assumed)
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (received through the laying on of hands)

They only thing missing in the passage is the evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We will have to look at other passages for that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are examples of the initial evidence of tongues following the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But notice that in each case there is another manifestation listed. This begs the question of this topic. Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Or is any manifestation of the Holy Spirit valid evidence? Or in some cases, the manifestations may come later.

Here's what we don't know based on these texts. Did everyone in these examples speak in tongues? Did some have another manifestation instead of tongues? Did everyone manifest tongues but some had a second manifestation? We are not told.
​

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's another example. No evidence of a manifestation is given other than his miraculous healing. But who would argue that the Apostle Paul did not speak in tongues?

Acts 9:16-19
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Summary statement

In Acts 19:6 and Acts 10:44-46 we see a manifestation of something other than tongues listed as evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Namely, prophecy and praising God.

Some may argue that praising "praising God" is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. However, at Pentecost the onlookers exclaimed, "... we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” - Acts 2:11

With confirmation with others the spirit baptism can be found my seeking God fully. When the spirit baptism comes upon you from head to toe you feel what some would call a hug from God .the spirit baptism is to me one of the most rewarding things in walking with God. It is a beautiful physical feeling from the top of your head to your toes when this comes upon you. Pray for this baptism & that the road to it be opened to you. As far as speaking in tongues; speaking in tongues is a spiritual gifts open to all, but powerful and meant for a few. It is a language that commands the angels, applys magic and many great works. Now you can speak in tongues in languages you know not, but others understand yet the more powerful language of tongues are the languages so large in each meaning of syllable only the mind of God can comprehend.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The biblical model says, "No." --- Or at least begs the question.

Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence
of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

What do others know about this?
Have you, or anyone you know, had an experience with the
Baptism with the Holy Spirit that differs from the "norm"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is the second of two baptisms for the believer.
In the book of the Acts of the Apostles we see this pattern established. (but not always in this order)
- Belief
- Repentance
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (typically received through the laying on of hands)

But how do you know that you have received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Most would say that tongues follow the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And that is mostly correct. However, that may not be the case.
Even the biblical model leaves us with questions about the validity of that claim.

And, of course, we need to hear the personal testimonies of those who have experienced something other than the "standard" experience with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Probably the best example of this is found in the passage in the book of the Acts of the Apostles about the new believers in Samaria.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This follows the established pattern listed above. (also see Acts 2:38-39)

- Belief
- Repentance (assumed)
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (received through the laying on of hands)

They only thing missing in the passage is the evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We will have to look at other passages for that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are examples of the initial evidence of tongues following the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But notice that in each case there is another manifestation listed. This begs the question of this topic. Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Or is any manifestation of the Holy Spirit valid evidence? Or in some cases, the manifestations may come later.

Here's what we don't know based on these texts. Did everyone in these examples speak in tongues? Did some have another manifestation instead of tongues? Did everyone manifest tongues but some had a second manifestation? We are not told.
​

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's another example. No evidence of a manifestation is given other than his miraculous healing. But who would argue that the Apostle Paul did not speak in tongues?

Acts 9:16-19
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Summary statement

In Acts 19:6 and Acts 10:44-46 we see a manifestation of something other than tongues listed as evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Namely, prophecy and praising God.

Some may argue that praising "praising God" is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. However, at Pentecost the onlookers exclaimed, "... we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” - Acts 2:11

I would say the ability to speak in different languages as per the book of acts is a minimal baptism of the Holy Spirit. There are far greater baptisms......that you can get at the same time your human spirit can get that ability. Which by the way I would urge everyone to get because you don't know what you are missing out on. I'm just saying I have experienced mighty baptisms of the Holy Spirit beyond that.

 

[timewerx]

Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence
of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Not at all according to the Bible. You can't manipulate the Spirit with praises and worship or prayers to hit you. It will hit you if it wishes to, even if you're doing absolutely nothing.

This is the biggest mistake of Pentecostal denominations if we use the Bible as a guide. So what spirit is hitting them? I don't know.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

The biblical model says, "No." --- Or at least begs the question.

Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence
of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

What do others know about this?
Have you, or anyone you know, had an experience with the
Baptism with the Holy Spirit that differs from the "norm"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is the second of two baptisms for the believer.
In the book of the Acts of the Apostles we see this pattern established. (but not always in this order)
- Belief
- Repentance
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (typically received through the laying on of hands)

But how do you know that you have received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Most would say that tongues follow the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And that is mostly correct. However, that may not be the case.
Even the biblical model leaves us with questions about the validity of that claim.

And, of course, we need to hear the personal testimonies of those who have experienced something other than the "standard" experience with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Probably the best example of this is found in the passage in the book of the Acts of the Apostles about the new believers in Samaria.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This follows the established pattern listed above. (also see Acts 2:38-39)

- Belief
- Repentance (assumed)
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (received through the laying on of hands)

They only thing missing in the passage is the evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We will have to look at other passages for that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are examples of the initial evidence of tongues following the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But notice that in each case there is another manifestation listed. This begs the question of this topic. Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Or is any manifestation of the Holy Spirit valid evidence? Or in some cases, the manifestations may come later.

Here's what we don't know based on these texts. Did everyone in these examples speak in tongues? Did some have another manifestation instead of tongues? Did everyone manifest tongues but some had a second manifestation? We are not told.
​

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's another example. No evidence of a manifestation is given other than his miraculous healing. But who would argue that the Apostle Paul did not speak in tongues?

Acts 9:16-19
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Summary statement

In Acts 19:6 and Acts 10:44-46 we see a manifestation of something other than tongues listed as evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Namely, prophecy and praising God.

Some may argue that praising "praising God" is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. However, at Pentecost the onlookers exclaimed, "... we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” - Acts 2:11

The scripture is clear on there being different manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Tongues is not the only manifestation.

There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:6-11 NASB)

 

[DamianWarS]

It's not a matter of choosing one, or the other; it is both. And, there is more than one kind of tongues in Acts. And more than one kind of tongues in 1 Corinthians. For instance, the tongues spoken at the outpouring at Pentecost is different than the outpouring in the house of Cornelius. This should be obvious.

I agree it shows us two forms of tongues, one from the onset of the baptism of the HS and one describing gifts of the HS from the onset of salvation

 

[Saint Steven]

With confirmation with others the spirit baptism can be found my seeking God fully. When the spirit baptism comes upon you from head to toe you feel what some would call a hug from God .the spirit baptism is to me one of the most rewarding things in walking with God. It is a beautiful physical feeling from the top of your head to your toes when this comes upon you. Pray for this baptism & that the road to it be opened to you. As far as speaking in tongues; speaking in tongues is a spiritual gifts open to all, but powerful and meant for a few. It is a language that commands the angels, applys magic and many great works. Now you can speak in tongues in languages you know not, but others understand yet the more powerful language of tongues are the languages so large in each meaning of syllable only the mind of God can comprehend.

Thanks for your post and welcome to the forum.
I like the distinction you are making about the Spirit "on" the person baptized in the Spirit. The indwelling at salvation is internal, in a sense. And the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is external, in a sense.

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

 

[Saint Steven]

The scripture is clear on there being different manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Tongues is not the only manifestation.

There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:6-11 NASB)

Right. I don't think it has to be tongues. A manifestation of the Spirit is a manifestation of the Spirit.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

100 years is only modern as relates to Christianity.

Sorry, but that doesn't quite work. The original quote was that there was that speaking in tongues was only in fringe groups that no longer exist.

Pentecostals (and Charismatics for that matter) are not fringe groups and they still exist and in some parts of the world they are bucking the trends of dying churches.

Hard evidence for tongues speaking exists for the first three centuries, and for the last two and other spiritual gifts have never ceased in 2,000 years, so it is not difficult to extrapolate vague evidence suggesting that such things never truly died out.

 

[Alithis]

To say that speaking in tongues is the only evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit is literally to say that no one has received the Holy Spirit for two thousand years. There are no accounts of speaking in tongues anywhere in the history of the Church except among some fringe groups that no longer exist.

the history of certain man made organisations don't count

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Those who speak and pray in tongues are not usually obsessed about it. They absorb it as part of their spiritual lives and just get on with serving Christ and spreading the gospel. It seems that it is those who oppose tongues tend to be more obsessed at trying to disprove the genuineness of it.

Oh yeah, I mean people in general (The Church) seem to focus more on that particular gift then any other for some reason.

I genuinely believe that it is the most misunderstood and misused gift from The Holy Spirit.

 

[HTacianas]

Sorry, but that doesn't quite work. The original quote was that there was that speaking in tongues was only in fringe groups that no longer exist.

Pentecostals (and Charismatics for that matter) are not fringe groups and they still exist and in some parts of the world they are bucking the trends of dying churches.

Hard evidence for tongues speaking exists for the first three centuries, and for the last two and other spiritual gifts have never ceased in 2,000 years, so it is not difficult to extrapolate vague evidence suggesting that such things never truly died out.

By all means go back in Church

the history of certain man made organisations don't count

So when did Christianity die off? Of the millions upon millions of Christians baptized throughout the history of the Church there are no accounts of spontaneous speaking in tongues among them.

If speaking in tongues is the only sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit, and among all those millions of Christians throughout history never having done it, all those baptisms were for nothing.

If baptism ceased, the Church ceased.

 

[Alithis]

By all means go back in Church


So when did Christianity die off? Of the millions upon millions of Christians baptized throughout the history of the Church there are no accounts of spontaneous speaking in tongues among them.

If speaking in tongues is the only sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit, and among all those millions of Christians throughout history never having done it, all those baptisms were for nothing.

If baptism ceased, the Church ceased.

church -- ekklesia / those called out of the world who gather unto Christ .

not those who attend and are baptized into a denomination . baptism alone has never been a guarantee of salvation .
there is repentance there is obedience there is life in the spirit there is all the scripture states NOT what tradition states .

but on the thread topic ... those who have been baptized in the holy Spirit can speak in tongues .
do all ?, sadly no . (depends which kind of tongues ) can all yes .

 

[aiki]

The biblical model says, "No." --- Or at least begs the question.

Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence
of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

What do others know about this?
Have you, or anyone you know, had an experience with the
Baptism with the Holy Spirit that differs from the "norm"?

No, tongues is not a necessary result of being born-again or "baptized" by the Holy Spirit. There is only one "baptism" of/by the Holy Spirit and that is the "baptism" that "washes and regenerates" (Titus 3:5) a person, and makes them the temple of the Holy Spirit, an adopted, redeemed child of God. A more important and more sure sign of the indwelling Spirit is not tongues, which can be faked very easily, but a life transformed by the Spirit and conformed to the Person of Christ. (Romans 8:29) Holiness, the Fruit of the Spirit, a peaceable, humble character, dying to Self - these are all far more necessary and true manifestations of being "baptized" by the Spirit (aka - born-again) than speaking in tongues.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is the second of two baptisms for the believer.
In the book of the Acts of the Apostles we see this pattern established. (but not always in this order)
- Belief
- Repentance
- Water Baptism
- Holy Spirit Baptism (typically received through the laying on of hands)

There is no "second baptism" of an already born-again believer. The very first born-again believers came to be in Acts 2 where the followers of Jesus gathered together at Pentecost were filled by the Spirit. And they did not need a second baptism to speak in various tongues when they went out immediately after their spiritual regeneration by the Spirit and shared the Gospel with the lost in the street. We also have no idea if they had all been water-baptized or not prior to receiving the Holy Spirit. Nothing in the account in Acts 2 gives us reason to think they had been.

But how do you know that you have received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Most would say that tongues follow the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And that is mostly correct. However, that may not be the case.
Even the biblical model leaves us with questions about the validity of that claim.

How do you know you have received the Holy Spirit?

1.) The inner witness of the Spirit. (Romans 8:16)
2.) A love of the brethren. (1 John 3:14)
3.) Conviction of sin. (John 16:8)
4.) An understanding of God's truth. (Luke 12:12; John 14:26)
5.) A hunger for, and delight in, the word of God. (Jeremiah 15:6)
6.) The Fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23)
7.) A spiritually-minded life. (Romans 8:5)

These are the marks of a person in whom the Spirit truly dwells. And they all exist entirely independently of tongues-speaking.

And, of course, we need to hear the personal testimonies of those who have experienced something other than the "standard" experience with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

No one's personal experience trumps the plain teaching of Scripture or may add to it. And Scripture no where teaches that tongues are an essential manifestation of the indwelling Spirit.

Probably the best example of this is found in the passage in the book of the Acts of the Apostles about the new believers in Samaria.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

This passage doesn't mention speaking in tongues nor does it say that the Samaritans had a second baptism of the Spirit. Although they had believed the Gospel, and had even been baptized in water, they had yet to be truly born-again by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit.

Here are examples of the initial evidence of tongues following the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But notice that in each case there is another manifestation listed. This begs the question of this topic. Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Or is any manifestation of the Holy Spirit valid evidence? Or in some cases, the manifestations may come later.

In Acts 2, the manifestation of tongues enabled the disciples to preach the Gospel to an audience of people of widely-varying languages, it did not simply show they had been filled by the Spirit. And no where in the entire chapter are we told that all believers must do likewise when they are first saved. The descriptions of the chapter are not offered prescriptively.

Here's what we don't know based on these texts. Did everyone in these examples speak in tongues? Did some have another manifestation instead of tongues? Did everyone manifest tongues but some had a second manifestation? We are not told.

What little the NT tells us of this particular gift gives us cause to understand that this gift was being abused by those "manifesting" it. (See 1 Corinthians 14) And after the accounts of Acts and Paul's comments on tongues to the Corinthian believers, the topic of tongues is entirely absent from the NT. This indicates to me that the modern obsession with this gift is far out of proportion to the importance Scripture places upon speaking in tongues. I suspect it has become a favorite among those seeking a sign from God today because it is the easiest to fake.

Here's another example. No evidence of a manifestation is given other than his miraculous healing. But who would argue that the Apostle Paul did not speak in tongues?

And yet, no where in all of his letters does he once say that a Christian must speak in tongues. What's more, in comparison to those things that did occupy his letters, tongues appears to have held little to no importance for Paul.