• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Is this the same cup?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Jun 12, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    For discussion:

    For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs. - Psalm 75:8

    And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." (Matthew 26:39, NASB)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    +611
    Christian
    Single
    I think Psalm 75:8 meaning is more like this:

    I heard a loud voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God on the earth!"
    Rev. 16:1

    Not the same what Jesus had.
     
  3. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

    +3,165
    United States
    Catholic
    Celibate
    Jesus' "cup" is connected to His "hour", or His Passion and crucifixion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Are you saying that multiple bowls and one cup are the same?
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I know.

    Do you have an answer for the question?
     
  6. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +9,132
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Not the same.
    Isa 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, that hast drunk at the hand of Jehovah the cup of his wrath; thou hast drunken the bowl of the cup of staggering, and drained it.
     
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,291
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    The cup of God's wrath is figurative. There is not one literal cup somewhere. Psalm 75, Isaiah 51, and Matthew 26 all draw from this figurative language and all refer to God's wrath being poured out.
     
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    +1,391
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Reply .. no it's not

    "and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs"

    the wicked drink it ..... Jesus was not wicked.

    but the dregs thereof all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out
    and drink them;
    the whole cup that God has measured out and filled up shall be poured out at last, and all be drank up; the very dregs of it by the wicked of the world, when they shall be punished with everlasting destruction in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: this will be the portion of their cup, ( Psalms 11:6 )

    In line with this one as well

    Revelation 14

    New International Version
    10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lam
     
  9. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

    +2,746
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Single
    Two different cups.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Okay, then is it the cup we should drink?
     
  11. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,291
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    It is the cup of God's wrath due to wicked sinners. Jesus drank it down for sinners so that they would not have to.
     
  12. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +769
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The cup Christ is referring to is the same cup He talks about:

    Matt 20: 22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”

    “We can,” they answered.

    23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.

    The “cup” in Psalms 75 seems to be referring a cup of God’s wrath: taking in God’s wrath upon them to the fullest.

    So how did these two in Matt 20: “drink from the same cup as Christ”?

    Did these two sons have the wrath of God brought upon them?

    Historically the sons of Zebedee were supposedly tortured to death, cruelly killed, but was that God’s wrath being brought upon them or wicked people severely persecuting them to death, like Jesus was persecuted to death by wicked people?

    This would not support the idea Christ took upon Himself the wrath of God since the son’s of Zebedee did not take the wrath of God upon themselves?
     
  13. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

    +141
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    Different cups. Christ died for sin. The cup of Psalm 75 is for the wicked.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    What’s the cup in Matthew then?
     
  15. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Active Member

    368
    +231
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    It is the the same cup, the cup & baptism of suffering & the wrath of God for sins of the wicked in rebellion against Him.

    Mark 10:39,40 “Jesus said to them, ‘The cup that I drink you will drink & with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared’ ”

    They knew not what Christ's cup was, nor what was His baptism. Those are commonly most confident, who are LEAST acquainted with the cross.

    Ligonier Ministries

    Again and again in the gospel of Mark, we read how the disciples failed to understand the message of Jesus (see, for example, Mark 6:45–52; 8:14–21; 9:30–32). Today’s passage gives us yet more evidence that the disciples were slow to comprehend their Master’s teaching. Mark records for us a particularly daring request that the sons of Zebedee, James and John, made to Jesus as they traveled from Galilee to Jerusalem.

    James and John, we see in Mark 10:35–37, requested to sit at the left and right hands of Jesus, places of honor in the glory of the kingdom of God. Their question reflects their failure at that point to understand one of the key points of Jesus’ teaching on discipleship—true disciples of Jesus do not look to advance their own interests or honor. Jesus calls His followers to come to Him with humility, like little children who know that in themselves they do not have anything to offer the kingdom of the Lord (vv. 13–16; see also 9:33–37).

    Christ did not correct their arrogance immediately but rather invited them to question whether they were qualified to hold such positions. Would they be able to drink the cup Jesus would have to drink and be baptized with the baptism with which He would have to be baptized (v. 38)?

    In the OT, the image of the cup can symbolize God’s blessing; however, in the majority of instances, the cup represents the Lord’s judgment & wrath on wickedness (Ps. 75:8; Isa. 51:22). Here in Mark 10:38, the cup has negative connotations, which means it represents the cup of divine wrath that Jesus would drink on behalf of His people to save them from their sin.

    Of course, no sinner can atone for another person’s sin, so we expect James & John to answer, “No, Lord, we cannot drink your cup.” In fact, Christ’s question in the original Greek is phrased in such as way as to make clear that a negative answer is expected. But when James & John told Jesus that they could drink His cup & endure His baptism, our Savior agreed that they would indeed drink His cup & receive His baptism (Mark 10:38–39).

    Christ was not indicating that James & John would atone for the sins of others—the grammar of His original question makes it impossible for Him to agree that the disciples could offer atonement. Instead, Jesus was pointing to the fact that in a sense, they would share in the ordeal Christ was about to undergo in Jerusalem. In other words, they would not escape suffering for the name of Jesus.

    We do not know who will have the highest place of honor after Jesus in the kingdom of God. We do know, however, that honor in the kingdom will come only as we drink Jesus’ cup & are baptized with His baptism.

    That is, the most highly honored in the kingdom of God will be those who have suffered the greatest for Jesus’ name. As we suffer for Jesus, let us remember that such suffering will lead to honor in His kingdom.

    But Jesus said they would drink of His cup & be baptized with this baptism of suffering as His apostles. So they would share in the sufferings of Christ & they did, just as Paul said He wanted to experience the 'fellowship of His sufferings being conformed to His death' & he did.

    But only Christ was to suffer the wrath of the Father for the sins of the world.

    Cup Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

    Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Cup

    Throughout Scripture, as in the ancient Near East, the cup functions as a metaphor for an individual's destiny. In Ps 16, David credits YHWH with assigning his "portion & cup" in life. Ps 23 equates abundant life with an overflowing cup, a potent image in a semiarid world. The culmination of the positive cup is in Ps 116. Here the psalmist raises the cup of salvation as a thank offering to God, in effect offering the sum of his life to his Lord.

    The metaphor of the cup, like life itself, can also be negative. In numerous prophetic works, the cup retains its role as a representative of destiny, but on a national level. The cup can function as a cup of wrath, a vessel pouring out God's judgment on the nations.

    The nations drinking from the "cup of His wrath" are often depicted as lost in drunkenness. Isaiah 51:17 personifies Jerusalem as a woman who drained the cup of wrath to its dregs. God takes pity on his city & intervenes. "See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger the cup of My wrath" (v. 22). This cup is then given to the tormentors, indicating that they will suffer in their turn.

    In a vision of destruction recorded by Jeremiah (25:15), God will force all the nations to drink from his cup & stagger to destruction. None are able to refuse it; all humanity will be judged & the wicked put to the sword.

    Ezekiel returns to the image of the cup of Jerusalem in a brutally explicit passage depicting Samaria & Jerusalem, representing the people of God, as two sisters who are prostitutes (ch. 23). The prophet calls the cup that Jerusalem drinks from, the "cup of ruin & desolation, the cup of your sister Samaria" (v. 33). For Ezekiel, the cup stands for the destruction of the two kingdoms.

    Zechariah uses the image of the cup of wrath to depict the fate of the enemies of Jerusalem. He adds a twist to the metaphor by making Jerusalem itself the cup (12:2). John in Revelation returns to the dark image of the cup of wrath, threatening all who follow the beast with the wine of God's judgment (14:10).

    For the church, the cup has come to represent the central events of Christianity, the death & resurrection of Christ. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ returns to the fundamental meaning of the cup as a representative of destiny.

    In his prayer, the cup symbolizes the pain, degradation & death that will be required of Him. He prays that the cup might pass undrunk, but it is Jesus' purpose to drain it to its dregs.

    Christ becomes all the nations of the world, taking on their destiny & drains the cup of wrath. By drinking of the cup God placed before Him, Christ transforms the cup of wrath into the cup of life. This transformation is foreshadowed at the last supper, where the cup of the new covenant, like the cup of wrath, is for all to partake of.

    Psalm 75:8 For a cup is in the hand of the LORD, and the wine foams; It is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Surely all THE WICKED OF THE EARTH must drain & drink down its dregs.

    Obadiah 1:16 For as you have drunk on My holy hill, so all THE NATIONS will drink continually. They will drink and gulp down, and be as if they had never been.

    Jer 25:15,28,29 This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from My hand this cup of the wine of wrath & make ALL THE NATIONS to whom I send you drink from it. If they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink it, you are to tell them, 'This is what the LORD of Hosts says: You most certainly must drink it! For behold, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears My name, so how could you possibly go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of Hosts.'

    Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

    Jer 49:12 And this is what the LORD says: “If the innocent must suffer, how much more must you! You will not go unpunished! You must drink this cup of judgment! [judgment on the nation of Edom]

    Jer 51:7 BABYLON was a gold cup in the hand of the LORD, making the whole earth drunk. THE NATIONS drank her wine; therefore the nations have gone mad.

    Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever & ever.

    Rev 17:3-6 And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, where I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names & had 7 heads & 10 horns. The woman was arrayed in purple &scarlet & adorned with gold & jewels & pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations & the impurities of her sexual immorality.

    On her forehead a mysterious name was written: BABYLON THE GREAT, the mother of prostitutes & of the abominations of the earth. I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints & of the witnesses for Jesus.

    Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts & the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered BABYLON THE GREAT & gave her THE CUP of the wine of the fury of His wrath.

    Rev 18:3,6 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication & the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her & the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. Give back to her as she has done to others; pay her back double for what she has done; mix her a double portion in her own cup.

    Rev 19:15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

    Job 21:7,14,15,20 Why do THE WICKED still live, continue on, also become very powerful? ...They say to God, ‘Depart from us! We do not even desire the knowledge of Your ways. ‘Who is the Almighty, that we should serve Him & what would we gain if we entreat Him? ...Let his own eyes see his decay & let him drink of THE WRATH of the Almighty.

    Zech 12:2 ""I'm going to make Jerusalem like a cup [of wine] that makes all the surrounding people [nations] stagger. They will attack Judah along with Jerusalem.

    Rev 14:9-11 And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast & its image & receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will DRINK THE WINE OF GOD'S ANGER, poured undiluted into THE CUP OF HIS WRATH. And he will be tormented in fire & brimstone in the presence of the holy angels & of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever & ever. Day & night there will be no rest for those WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST & its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

    Isaiah 51:17,22 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD THE CUP OF HIS FURY; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling & wrung them out. ...Thus says your Lord, the LORD your God, who pleads the cause of His people. Behold I have TAKEN FROM YOUR HAND hand the cup of staggering, the bowl of My wrath you shall DRINK NO MORE.

    In the bible a watchman stood watch in a watch tower overlooking the vineyard of grapes and this bible watchman is blowing the trumpet of warning with this sermon on grapes.

    Which cup? – the choice in yours. You will drink from one cup or the other. The cup of salvation & eternal life in heaven or the cup of God’s wrath & the great tribulation wrath of God & eternal death in the lake of fire.

    First take the cup of salvation from the Lord Jesus during this day of grace. Be saved by God’s beloved son and avail yourself of God’s grace. “I will take the cup of salvation & call upon the name of the Lord” – (Ps.116:13). 1000 years before Christ came the cup of salvation was prophesied.

    It is written in (Ps.75:8) – “For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup & the wine is red; it is full of mixture & He poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out & drink them.”

    Here we see both the cup of salvation & the cup of wrath. God’s cup of wrath is without mixture – not mixed with water or soft drinks. This is undiluted wrath, not wrath mixed with mercy.

    (Rev.14:10) says about the beast worshipers who get the mark of the beast during the great tribulation wrath of God – “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation & he shall be tormented with fire & brimstone in the presence of the holy angels & in the presence of the Lamb.”

    Verses in (Rev.19) & (Is.63) inspired Julia Ward Howe to write the song “Battle Hymn of the Republic” during our Civil War. But it’s not about the Civil War but about the final war of Armageddon.

    "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
    He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored.
    He hath loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword
    His truth is marching on. Glory, glory hallelujah! His truth is marching on."

    And notice it’s a hymn – a church song. (Psalms & hymns & spiritual songs--Col 3:16ff). Not a battle song but a battle hymn & we sing this hymn in churches all over the world.

    It’s one of the few hymns that sings of God’s wrath instead of His mercy. Yes, every eye shall see Him coming in glory to trample the winepress of the fierceness & wrath of Almighty God.

    At His first coming His enemies shed His blood, not knowing it was the cup of salvation to save the ‘whosever wills.’ But at His second coming He sheds the blood of His enemies – “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool” – (Ps.110:1).

    Did you know when you sing this song, this battle hymn, that it’s about the battle of Armageddon – and it’s coming soon.

    "He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never sound retreat.
    He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat.
    O be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant my feet.
    Our God is marching on!"

    This battle hymn is about Him – amen. Coming back in power & great glory to put down all His enemies & to promote all His saints as kings & priests on this earth. Praise the Lord Jesus.
     
  16. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,055
    Presbyterian
    Single
    I'm afraid the answer has to be yes and no. The Psalm is speaking of God's judgement. To the extent that Christ was judged for us, it's the same cup. But unless you believe in universalism, Christ isn't the only person judged.
     
  17. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

    +1,171
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Republican
    No
     
  18. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

    +141
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    I already said. Christ died for sin. The cup is for sin.
     
  19. Radagast

    Radagast is a Trinitarian Christian

    +6,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Why would you think that?
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    +611
    Christian
    Single
    I don’t think many cups are one. Bible tells there are several “cups” of God’s wrath. And the Psalm 75:8 seems to be about one of them.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...